What is Good for Women's Rugby

@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

That's not the whole season though is it?

No but FIFA lock out the stadiums (EP, Waikato, Caketin, FBS) for their games plus a month beforehand. The knockon effect pushing mens games around does make things a mess. I am really only referring to this as an organisational hurdle that makes things difficult should a BF game opportunity arise.

Agree with feeding off FPC as much as possible to try and push the 'new' way of attending games as an affordable family outing

@Rapido said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

Interesting. I'm not sure how would be best.

I think one thing that is proven, is that running it as its own event rather than piggy backing off the mens event as a curtain raiser - is actually the way to go.

E.g. The FPC as curtain-raisers to NPC games are non-events, apart from being 2 hours of filler for Sky early on a weekend afternoon. Same with Black Ferns as a curtain raiser to an All Blacks test.

The number of double header FPC - NPC games have been drastically reduced the last few years. For those watching games on tv it's a pity that some FPC games are played at the same time as NPC games or other FPC games (which is unfortunately also happening with NPC games being played at the same time, esp on Sunday).

Where as the standalone Womens World Cup generates it's owm buzz and momentum.

Yep. Those standalone tournaments/games is what the women's players want themselves, too.

But, I have my doubts about professional momentum. Maybe I'm just to negative with the modern refereeing of rugby. But, I find it pretty terrible game to watch now, and only nationalism (and history) keeps me still watching it at Al Black level. I don't have enough energy in my life to get driven insane by also watching this version of it at a franchise or provincial level anymore. All the little micro decisions at maul and rolling away, and scrum time drive me nuts. But. that may just be me ....

Although I don't like some of the Laws or the way they are applied, I still enjoy watching the games as much as I did years ago. Just go with the flow. Adjust. Relax. Don't get annoyed so much by things you can't control. Look at the positives (there are plenty of them).

I chuckle at this thread given the new title of it. It's middle aged men discussing what's best for women's rugby. Verity Johnson step on up

@Crazy-Horse Some of these middle aged men are/may be involved with women's rugby, know female players/coaches, are parents of (aspiring) female players, listen to women's views about these subjects.

@Stargazer said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crazy-Horse Some of these middle aged men are/may be involved with women's rugby, know female players/coaches, are parents of (aspiring) female players, listen to women's views about these subjects.

I know mate and I have no issue with the thread at all.

@Stargazer said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crazy-Horse Some of these middle aged men are/may be involved with women's rugby, know female players/coaches, are parents of (aspiring) female players, listen to women's views about these subjects.

I am also advocating that women run the game as much as possible. Part of the RWC success was that women saw women driving what was happening.
Board, coaching, management , organisation....let them at it and I'll support from the sidelines.

The growth area has to be in the Primary/secondary girls age group. Even at primary age they need girls only tackle. At tackle age you see one or two girls but there is a fall off from Rippa.

In the Waikato they have school teams that play on Wednesdays. The elite comp is the Chiefs Manawa comp. Most of the rest of the schools have one team. There is a development grade for a couple of weaker schools and 3 U15 teams including a club based team from Tokoroa. At Primary level there are no girls grades but I think they have a few rippa/tackle tournaments. There are sometimes girls only teams at rippa level. The Premier womens grade has no development grade with a lot of hidings till they split towards the end of the year.

Counties ran a club based girls only Rippa comp on Friday nights. The First XV comp was 5 teams playing tens. Manurewa and Wesley played in the Aucklaand comp. Counties club teams play in the Auckland comps. Most teams are in North Counties, Patumahoe being the only one more rural/town based playing in the 10's comp. My home district club Onewhero is trying to get a team for next year, they had a team 20 years ago. After the Black Ferns won in 1998 there was some growth in the region but that fell away.

I see that Auckland have a club based U15's grade as well as 1st XV and tens grades. Girls only Rippa at U9, U11, U13.

@mikedogz hence why I wonder if, instead of following traditional progression structures there is a tackle transition period available that might use something like coloured shorts to help players move into full on play.
At tese ages the levels of development differ quite a bit, as does the reason and mindset for playing. there are little kids that want nothing more than smashing out some physical contact and others that may be a bit shy of it.
Again a reason why maybe getting the mums involved is a better option than having them worried.

The path to success is to have the best people, regardless of gender, run the sport. Picking coaches or adminstrators by anything other than merit is doomed to failure.

For example, picking a female ref for the World Cup final was a mistake IMO. The sport can't afford not to do everything it can to raise standards.

On the flip side, no reason why we can't have female refs (or adminstrators) in the mens game. Pick the best people.

In my son's last year of rippa the best player was a girl who carved up. She played one game of tackle, got hurt, never came back.

There are tough girls that can handle boys rugby but that changes once puberty comes in. Another girl my son played with got stuck in and matched it with the boys and made the Rep teams at intermediate age as a flanker and moved to halfback for her last year. She is at HGHS now and is making rep teams and on the fringe of the First XV.

I'm a sporty admin for my club and I can see that we have about 20 girls, almost enough around the same age to create a ten aside team if there was a girls only tackle grade in the Waikato.

@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

On the flip side, no reason why we can't have female refs (or adminstrators) in the mens game. Pick the best people.

@chimoaus She any worse that the plonkers Aussie rugby have picked now or in the past? Mark Robinson?

@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@chimoaus She any worse that the plonkers Aussie rugby have picked now or in the past? Mark Robinson?

I have no idea how they select these CEO's but the pay packet often doesn't match the ability that is for sure. I have no idea why it is so difficult to get competent leaders.

Never thought I would miss Steve Tew.

lol fuck poor Raelene

Getting judged for the fiasco at RA?

You can only work high up in rugby in Australia without getting white-anted to fuck if you have ties to one of 3 clubs in Sydney. Otherwise you are fucked and will be run out of town.

Being from the right club might not even save you if the NSW old boys network decides you should go.

I wonder how much of the BF success can be pinned to the fact they are largely semi-pro/amateur?

I mean for the mens, obviously on a smaller scale, the English women, are professional players, and as such the way they play the game changes, as I expect your mindset would as well.

I mean when this is your livelihood, you train and train and train, have structures, processes, game plans, sometimes will this detract from ones decision making and ability to simply play the game the way they want to play and enjoy it, as it was clear the BFs did.

I may be off base, but it was something I thought about as a factor about how they play, which seems all but organised chaos at times.

@taniwharugby I think it depends more on who the coaches are than whether they're full-time or semi-pro or amateur. If you get a rigid thinking coach who has mostly had experience coaching men and tries to make female players play like men, then you get England. If you get a coach - man or woman - who understands that you have to let women play to their strengths (which may in some respects be different to male players), then you get the Black Ferns.

I think it's a good thing what they're now doing with Whitney Hansen and the female Super Rugby Aupiki coaches, who are there on merit, have worked their way up via coaching club and/or school teams (male and female), have worked with experienced male coaches to learn, but can now develop their own coaching style that's suitable for women's rugby.

It will be interesting who'll be the next Black Ferns coach. Do they go for the experience of Allan Bunting, who has been very good coaching women's teams, or do they think Hansen is ready for the top job?

@canefan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

Another name change for the thread.

How can Rugby, particularly NZ Rugby, make the most of the event and occasion that was RWC2021?

Need to grab the young'uns while the 3 second attention span hasn't wandered.

Some thoughts:

1. Get England back here in 2023 (or at least France)

Play a 3 test series, and maybe some mid weeks. Black Fern Maori?

Play tests in times outside of AB and other rep games and make them accessible to a family audience.

Sunday arvos is a good time - free of men's rep Rugby, and family friendly. (Noting that back in my day women played club footy on Sundays.)

Play at venues where they didn't play in the RWC: Welly, Dunners and anywhere that's not as embarrassing as Chch.

Do same for any Pac4 games in NZ.

Maybe one or two as curtain raisers good for crowds and awareness? But think they could make these into decent events and money spinners.

That's the short term look out.

2. Create more age grade opportunities.

Ensure there are girls club and school comps available.

Work with clubs and schools to combine any interested girls (coz I'm convinced that the number of girls wanting to play may still be below the threshold) into combined club teams. Don't let them slip through because of club parochiality (if that's a word).

3. Get merch into the shops.

May be an immediate issue due to supply chain.

4. Educate the masses ...

Any other thoughts?

That pretty much covers it. Close the thread .

Regular games is a must. The cheap ticket model worked a treat. Foster a strong test comp in the Pacific which means trying to encourage a stronger Aussie. Getting a couple of aussie based super teams into our comp might help them in that regard

A little perspective on the state of the game this side of the ditch. There's a paucity of young women who want to play. Of that there's a wide distribution in talent and athletic ability. The best of those young women are being targeted by league and AFL as well.

The last two years coaching rep u18 females shows to me how competitive this area is to keep talent. Once they leave school/ get jobs/ got to uni/ dating etc. it proves very difficult to sustain numbers sufficient to have a broad competition.

Clubs could be mandated to have a women's senior team, but the problem is fielding a side. Not just a competitive one, but a match day 23. The drop off from about u16s through to senior squads is huge.

@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

The path to success is to have the best people, regardless of gender, run the sport. Picking coaches or adminstrators by anything other than merit is doomed to failure.

For example, picking a female ref for the World Cup final was a mistake IMO. The sport can't afford not to do everything it can to raise standards.

On the flip side, no reason why we can't have female refs (or adminstrators) in the mens game. Pick the best people.

Ignoring the 'political' aspects to stop thread diversion, I think that there is a good counter argument to this.
I don't think that anyone is saying to remove male involvement but direction would mean that design of comps, understanding of problems and drivers etc would be better. Avoid the "designed for women....by men" aspect.
Whether right or wrong a big aspect to the success of the WRWC was the buy in by women that saw how other women were driving much of what was happening..if that is what needs to happen to accelerate growth then I'm happy with it.
As for refs, the womens game is played a little differently, the focus aspects for refs is a little different, allowances are made in some areas etc That can come through in what constitutes advantage, time given to clear the tackle area and plenty of other areas. Unlees there are other 'better' refs that can also adjust to these aspects then we are better off having specialists. The other aspect is providing clear pathways for female refs which is very important as getting refs is one of the hardest things.
Is it perfect? No, but it may be the best as the game grows in its own way.
I have seen refs (male and female) control a game as they would a mens game and that subtle change makes a difference to flow and enjoyment. Much more noticeable at lower levels.

@antipodean said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@canefan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

Another name change for the thread.

How can Rugby, particularly NZ Rugby, make the most of the event and occasion that was RWC2021?

Need to grab the young'uns while the 3 second attention span hasn't wandered.

Some thoughts:

1. Get England back here in 2023 (or at least France)

Play a 3 test series, and maybe some mid weeks. Black Fern Maori?

Play tests in times outside of AB and other rep games and make them accessible to a family audience.

Sunday arvos is a good time - free of men's rep Rugby, and family friendly. (Noting that back in my day women played club footy on Sundays.)

Play at venues where they didn't play in the RWC: Welly, Dunners and anywhere that's not as embarrassing as Chch.

Do same for any Pac4 games in NZ.

Maybe one or two as curtain raisers good for crowds and awareness? But think they could make these into decent events and money spinners.

That's the short term look out.

2. Create more age grade opportunities.

Ensure there are girls club and school comps available.

Work with clubs and schools to combine any interested girls (coz I'm convinced that the number of girls wanting to play may still be below the threshold) into combined club teams. Don't let them slip through because of club parochiality (if that's a word).

3. Get merch into the shops.

May be an immediate issue due to supply chain.

4. Educate the masses ...

Any other thoughts?

That pretty much covers it. Close the thread .

Regular games is a must. The cheap ticket model worked a treat. Foster a strong test comp in the Pacific which means trying to encourage a stronger Aussie. Getting a couple of aussie based super teams into our comp might help them in that regard

A little perspective on the state of the game this side of the ditch. There's a paucity of young women who want to play. Of that there's a wide distribution in talent and athletic ability. The best of those young women are being targeted by league and AFL as well.

The last two years coaching rep u18 females shows to me how competitive this area is to keep talent. Once they leave school/ get jobs/ got to uni/ dating etc. it proves very difficult to sustain numbers sufficient to have a broad competition.

Clubs could be mandated to have a women's senior team, but the problem is fielding a side. Not just a competitive one, but a match day 23. The drop off from about u16s through to senior squads is huge.

look at the NRLW. Currently 6 teams, expanding to 10 next year. Rugby league is massively popular and yet getting teams up and running is incredibly difficult.

AFLW has a full 18 teams. But only play 10 games. And the AFL is pouring money in to development pathways the length and breadth of the country. Because of its nature i think this sport has the most chance of actually "succeeding" in its own right.

I firmly believe it to be fantasy territory that the women's versions of mens football become self-sufficient. Maybe the AFL can on player numbers, but not commercially. No chance is some AFLW player getting Buddie's contract.