@Nepia said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@RoninWC said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Nepia said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Hooroo said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@booboo a lot of heat on her coming into the WC. She was superb in the final. Exceptional kicking came. I wish A Smith had her kicking smarts.

A lot of heat on her on the Fern during the cup. There was a Black Ferns thread where it was almost alternating between posts complaining about her selection with posts about how great a coach Smith was. I did chuckle to myself.

Quite frankly Cocksedge deserved it. She was much better in that last game but still not great.

Her tackling is shocking, just trying to grab a jersey, she missed several key tackles leading to a try or two.

Her passing is weak.

Yes, credit to her that she improved her kicking but that was all IMHO.

The main point of my post was more about the fawning over Smith who was selecting her while complaining about her.

Fair enough @Nepia, wasn't having a go either.

I certainly agree with you there... There were a few things like some sketchy selections and sticking with Renee Holmes to prove Smith isn't a god but damn, in the after glow of that win, he's damn close :grinning_face_with_big_eyes:

@RoninWC said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Nepia said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Hooroo said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@booboo a lot of heat on her coming into the WC. She was superb in the final. Exceptional kicking came. I wish A Smith had her kicking smarts.

A lot of heat on her on the Fern during the cup. There was a Black Ferns thread where it was almost alternating between posts complaining about her selection with posts about how great a coach Smith was. I did chuckle to myself.

Quite frankly Cocksedge deserved it. She was much better in that last game but still not great.

Her tackling is shocking, just trying to grab a jersey, she missed several key tackles leading to a try or two.

Her passing is weak.

Yes, credit to her that she improved her kicking but that was all IMHO.

Yeah I thought we could have done with dragging Cocksedge a bit earlier to speed up the game, England were already out on their feet after two phases, I reckon we coulda had more points

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

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An All Black will get red carded against England for something fairly innocuous and they will forget about the women.

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

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I wonder if he discussed it with Portia after the match? Not that she would have remembered even if he had....

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

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Fuck off Simon

You've let yourself down there

Your charges had the biggest opportunity - 2 actually - to give the biggest statement and they blew it

End of

You would not have been saying fuck all if the shoe was on the other foot

Rinse the sourness from your mouth with some quality NZ grapes

@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

View embedded content

Fuck off Simon

You've let yourself down there

Your charges had the biggest opportunity - 2 actually - to give the biggest statement and they blew it

End of

You would not have been saying fuck all if the shoe was on the other foot

Rinse the sourness from your mouth with some quality NZ grapes

Having said that, the 20 min RC is required.

Hmmm...

@canefan said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

I wonder if he discussed it with Portia after the match? Not that she would have remembered even if he had....

he did but Portia then rambled on about the quality of mercy, the gentle rain from heaven, and being mightest of the mightiest. There was a monarch and a sceptre in there somewhere as well. The bit about the dread and fear of kings was of course regendered. "We 've got some scary sheilas over there, eh?"

"The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The thronèd monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptered sway."

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

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20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.

@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

View embedded content

20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.

OK I'll play

Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful

It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)

Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.

I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.

But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.

In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.

@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.

In the imaginary game I watched anyway.

@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.

In the imaginary game I watched anyway.

That’s novel having a reserve for a red card

@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

View embedded content

20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.

OK I'll play

Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful

It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)

Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.

I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.

But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.

In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.

Hence the logic behind my suggestion that 'punishment' needs to be linked with the outcome of the act. Not sure of exactly how you'd do it .

What I don't get is how for all this talk about 'protecting the players' we saw two England players return to play after head knocks during the game. One flopped out and didn't move during play and another was very unsteady on her feet. We also see head knocks not attended to for ages and attitudes of trying to keep players on the field instead of taking them off. If player safety really is the focus why aren't head injury players removed from the field for assessment immediately? Why are HIAs designed to 'pass' a player?
I guess that what I'm saying is that the big focus and argument for RCs around head impact seems to be a clumsy ambulance at the bottom of the cliff and isn't reducing the core problems.
I think that players in this RWC were wearing mouthgards that recorded impacts and stress on the head. Will be interesting when that data all comes out.

@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

View embedded content

20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.

In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.

Nah. NZ lost one of their best but were still able to replace her with another handy player.

With a 20min red card England lose that player for the duration of the game, and also have to play a player down for 20 minutes. An adequate sanction for a reckless, but accidental incident.

@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.

In the imaginary game I watched anyway.

That’s novel having a reserve for a red card

That could be an interesting/shit idea. Have a red card bench of separate players that are nominated to come on after the 20 minutes for a player who's been red carded in a position they are nominated for.

Your bench players also have to be nominated for a position and can't be used if the red card sub also covers that position.

@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.

In the imaginary game I watched anyway.

That’s novel having a reserve for a red card

That could be an interesting/shit idea. Have a red card bench of separate players that are nominated to come on after the 20 minutes for a player who's been red carded in a position they are nominated for.

Your bench players also have to be nominated for a position and can't be used if the red card sub also covers that position.

I'm a bit confused on that idea. Might be too early in the morning.

One other idea to throw into the mix is to increase the deterrent of a 20 minute RC by not allowing tactical subbing around it. If a prop goes off then any subs made to cover the situation are permanent. eg if you take a flanker off for numbers then that flanker can't return. In other words you have an impact on the use of the bench as well.
To be honest though, it is getting rare to see RCs that are wildly reckless. Most are timing accidents rather than decisions.

I had forgotten that the English players were to get £15,000 bonus if they won the RWC. For context, that is roughly half of the annual salary for their highest paid players.

@Crucial yeah I really struggle with the protect the head at all costs mentality with Cards, but on the other side, they have just penalised someone, YC'd them or RC'd them for a head contect, yet the number of times the player on the receiving end of the contact doesnt go off for an HIA...if an incident is deemed to be enough to penalise a team for a head contact then it is surely enough to do an HIA straight away rather than 5 mins later

@Crucial so you name your 23, but then you also have another "bench" of red card replacements. RC replacements and your normal bench are nominated for certain positions.

If you have to use an RC replacement (for a red card after 20 mins) then you can't use a normal bench player who is nominated to cover a position the RC replacement covers.

Essentially, red carded player is replaced by ideally a 3rd/4th in line player and the 2nd in line player (on the bench) can go have a shower with the red carded player.

Which could also be televised.