Already talking about it in the Highlander thread but was interested if the other franchises have many players buying in?
i think its great news for the Highlanders but i do think its a missed opportunity to make a big deal about it, have them all down at Forsyth Barr and parade them a bit like new signings, make buying into the teams, even in small amounts, the done thing to do, maybe raise their value
Good place to leave this I suppose:
Nichol told Stuff that he was “100%” open to it and had already been involved in talks about the concept with McLennan.
“Something I think that can be really attractive is a prospect of a draft which is around New Zealand talent, Australian talent and Pacific talent.
“New Zealand, Australia, and the Pacific now through Moana Pasifika, we’re joined at the hip to retain professional rugby in this part of the world.
“I don’t think people really understand that. We’re competing in the global marketplace, which is becoming incredibly aggressive with private equity interests becoming very influential in the northern hemisphere.
“We’ve got to be innovative. We’ve got to say, ‘How can we all work together to not just retain but actually attract talent back to this part of the world?’
@kiwi_expat That article is just regurgitating an earlier Stuff article (already posted in another thread) and adds literally one paragraph, in which Phil Waugh says he wants to discuss a draft with Robinson. No surprise, as a draft favours Australia much more than New Zealand.
You're posting this stuff over and over again, like you're pushing an agenda.
@Stargazer Think a draft would be good for the comp though. How it work is the hard part.
@friedrugby It's not good at all. Franchises that spend a lot of time, knowledge, energy and money in developing players don't want players developed by them being picked up by other franchises, even less so by Australian franchises. If that would happen, they'll simply develop fewer players or put less money/effort in it and that would be harmful for rugby in NZ. This has already been discussed to death in other threads, so I leave it at this, but most teams go through years that things aren't going as well as they'd hoped and managed to climb out of it through good planning, recruiting and developing players. To see that work undone by things like drafts is not motivating teams to do the necessary work.
Clayton McMillan has already expressed his opinion about this and similar ideas in the media and I know this opinion is shared by other franchises.
They used to have a transfer fee when players moved province in the NPC. I don't think they have it anymore. Maybe an option if a draft comes in.
Clayton McMillan doesn't like it because any kid having the option to live and play code in Sydney or Hamilton is probably not gonna choose the Waikato.
hmmmm, Coogeee or Ham East? hmmmm, let me just weigh that up (packs bags)
The whole point is that if a draft model was used, Super teams wouldn't be developing the players... That is ultimately where the model comes unstuck. Other than American sports which draft out of the College system, the only other sport which uses a draft is cricket, but that is a very different model.
The cricket model wouldn't work, as a draft would have to take place prior to the NPC due to contract security, which would be a massive floor. The college system is also almost impossible, though it would be kind of cool if say Otago University played Auckland University etc.
There's two arguments in favour of a draft
Now consider the population bases of the SR sides (numbers are from the NZR in 2019)
| Region | Population |
|---|---|
| Blues | 1.396m |
| Chiefs | 1.333m |
| Hurricanes | 1.019m |
| Crusaders | 0.797m |
| Highlanders | 0.337m |
The problem to me is an uneven spread of pro contracts. 20% of the pro contracts in Dunedin is crazy as is 40% of the pro contracts being in the South Island
That relies on a constant flow of players in one direction
To me the solution is more SR sides in other locations. That would solve the two original problems - uneven spread of talent & good players are not playing enough
It's better than forcing players away from their homes. There is an attrition rate when you do that and some players will opt for NRL in Sydney, Rugby in the south of France etc etc
Then perhaps it's appropriate for some of these SR sides to use the logos, uniforms of NPC sides..
9 or 10 teams would be ideal IMO. Same as the 1st division in the 90's
@friedrugby said in Super Rugby 2024:
you'd need to extend the season and abolish the NPC
Yes
Consider it a merger
@mariner4life Players go where they think they'll get the best opportunity to develop and succeed. Aussies from Qld and NSW have no problem heading to Canberra.
@Bovidae said in Super Rugby 2024:
@mariner4life Players go where they think they'll get the best opportunity to develop and succeed. Aussies from Qld and NSW have no problem heading to Canberra.
no shit?
I don't get the point
@Bovidae Players in NZ also don't hesitate to move franchises to get more playing opportunities. That's how the likes of Waisake Naholo and Fekitoa ended up at the Highlanders, Josh Ioane at the Chiefs, Kini Naholo at the Hurricanes, more players at the HIghlanders (Makalio, Hunt), to name a few.
@friedrugby said in Super Rugby 2024:
Other than American sports which draft out of the College system, the only other sport which uses a draft is cricket, but that is a very different model.
AFL has a very successful draft out of teams development systems
@Stargazer The NPC is fucked though, let's be fair. Most of the unions barely break even, and despite what a few diehard fans will say, no one watches it. More diehard Highlanders fans than Otago fans etc.
@Stargazer Evidence of what? You aren't honestly going to try claim more people like the NPC than Super Rugby. Look at the crowd sizes. Even the unions which don't have Super teams get pretty piss poor crowds.
@friedrugby i wonder if otago and southland fans are more interested in revitalising the NPC because we've been through time where theyve actually "gone under" or had to be bailed out so know that just carrying on how we are isn't guaranteed
@Kiwiwomble The problem with the NPC, is that it isn't attractive to the casual fan... realistically they made a mistake when they first professionalized rugby by going down the SR route. Would have been better to keep it with the three divisions, and chances are, the finances would naturally have sorted themselves out as the money grew.
There are now a generation of fans who grew up supporting the Highlanders, not Otago/Southland etc. Their heroes are Aaron Smith and Waisake Naholo, not Josh Renton and Michael Collins.
Revitalising the NPC by abolishing Super Rugby wouldn't work.
@friedrugby I think you are generalising too much and you can't prove it either. There are plenty of provinces with decent crowds, particularly the provinces not based in the SR main centres. And those that are based in SR main centres may just be playing in venues that are too big (and expensive) for NPC.
And no, I can't prove it, but am going by who I know and talk to (and that's quite a few), people in the provinces without a SR base are far more supportive of their NPC team than you think. And they'd hate to lose NPC, because that's where they see their team that really represents them with a majority of local players playing for the team. SR teams simply don't offer that level of tribal affiliation in those provinces. In their NPC team, they see the players that went to their school or play for their club. Players they may know personally, or their relatives. That's important for a lot of people.
Also, as has been explained multiple times already, you shouldn't just look at crowd numbers. It's a bad yard stick for a competitions success. You should include viewer numbers, which unfortunately aren't made public.
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2024:
@friedrugby I think you are generalising too much and you can't prove it either. There are plenty of provinces with decent crowds, particularly the provinces not based in the SR main centres. And those that are based in SR main centres may just be playing in venues that are too big (and expensive) for NPC.
And no, I can't prove it, but am going by who I know and talk to (and that's quite a few), people in the provinces without a SR base are far more supportive of their NPC team than you think. And they'd hate to lose NPC, because that's where they see their team that really represents them with a majority of local players playing for the team. SR teams simply don't offer that level of tribal affiliation in those provinces. In their NPC team, they see the players that went to their school or play for their club. Players they may know personally, or their relatives. That's important for a lot of people.
Also, as has been explained multiple times already, you shouldn't just look at crowd numbers. It's a bad yard stick for a competitions success. You should include viewer numbers, which unfortunately aren't made public.
I don't think anything you have said there is not true. And in Rugby's current model you wouldn't get rid of the NPC, because that would leave way too long a gap, and way too small amount of rugby. If the Aussies did bugger off, or they did expand Super Rugby, it would be interesting to see what they would do.
can we all just accept that every union might be slightly different, like i said otago was 1 day away from liquidation in 2012 based on nearly 50% drop in revenue over 2 years...so some of us have very real memories of almost losing things...that doesn't mean hawkes bay is in the same boat....BUT, if teams do start to disappear the the more stable teams wont have as many teams to play....and so there is possibly a domino effect
@Kiwiwomble Realistically with the Silverlake Deal there is no real threat of it falling over.
@Kiwiwomble If there were fewer teams, they could play all teams in the competition instead of 10 out of 13 (that's the current number). But it would be a great loss to the provinces that drop out.
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
Clayton McMillan doesn't like it because any kid having the option to live and play code in Sydney or Hamilton is probably not gonna choose the Waikato.
hmmmm, Coogeee or Ham East? hmmmm, let me just weigh that up (packs bags)
Yep but a draft stop the kid having an option doesn't it??
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@friedrugby said in Super Rugby 2024:
Other than American sports which draft out of the College system, the only other sport which uses a draft is cricket, but that is a very different model.
AFL has a very successful draft out of teams development systems
Yep but the draft is only in one country, and they have no options, AFL has no competition! Example ; a kid from Brisbane could get drafted to Highlanders, Drua etc etc, and instead of wanting to go and live ib Dunedin ro Suvea he than can say F*** this, I going to Japan, Frnace etc ot just swap to league. Why NRL don't probably try it, and AFL kid has no options if he wants to play professional sport.
@friedrugby In the short term, but as a private equity company they will get their money by any means necessary.
@Dan54 ....but isn't that what it is now? people already move between teams, a draft would just make it more clear to everyone. from memory in the AFL they still have to put themselves up for the draft...its still a choice, and you can have preferences on where to go they dont just get bought and sold and have to go places they dont want too, other people take up training contracts to stay local and try and earn a spot with their local team, like now we have people that take WTG contracts rather than trying their luck elsewhere
it really is just for people that want to play in the comp, to make a name for themselves and are happy to move
its also something the AFL uses to keep people interest in the offseason, build some hype, teams swap and trade picks so they can try and secure certain people
in saying that, i really was just point out that there are other sports that do it
@Tim yeah, if the unions arent trying to be sustainable businesses and grow their own income and rely on this "free money".....the long term future dont look good
Super Rugby did used to have a kind of a draft system. Franchises could protect a certain number of players, then the rest were up for grabs. I cannot remember if it was voluntary on the part of the players though - did they have the option to leave for a season and the option to refuse, or did they have to go to the Franchise that wanted them?
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble If there were fewer teams, they could play all teams in the competition instead of 10 out of 13 (that's the current number). But it would be a great loss to the provinces that drop out.
Manawatu, Bay of Plenty, Tasman? :face_with_tears_of_joy:
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat That article is just regurgitating an earlier Stuff article (already posted in another thread) and adds literally one paragraph, in which Phil Waugh says he wants to discuss a draft with Robinson. No surprise, as a draft favours Australia much more than New Zealand. You're posting this stuff over and over again, like you're pushing an agenda.
Mark Robinson interview on 3 tonight at 7.30, he wants open eligibility across SR.
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
can we all just accept that every union might be slightly different, like i said otago was 1 day away from liquidation in 2012 based on nearly 50% drop in revenue over 2 years...so some of us have very real memories of almost losing things...that doesn't mean hawkes bay is in the same boat....BUT, if teams do start to disappear the the more stable teams wont have as many teams to play....and so there is possibly a domino effect
I think the majority of the NPC teams have learnt to live within their means now and despite what fried says they generally at least break even, including the old big 5.
Regardless of a preference for the NPC or not if it goes we lose a crucial part of our development structure in NZ rugby.
When (for example) Fakatava first came into NPC rugby he was playing with a number of Super players and against a number of Super players giving him experience before playing Super rugby. Not every player is a Roks. The NPC is a stepping stone for NZ players.
On the draft, I don't mind if there's an after initial selection draft, like the old Super @Tim mentioned where the top 26 are selected and then others go into a draft - although it did lead to anomalies where the halfback Mark Robinson didn't get a contract when clearly inferior players did. And allowing players from NZ in Oz teams would probably mean that a few players would not need to go to MLR as an Oz team would pick them up.
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
Clayton McMillan doesn't like it because any kid having the option to live and play code in Sydney or Hamilton is probably not gonna choose the Waikato.
hmmmm, Coogeee or Ham East? hmmmm, let me just weigh that up (packs bags)
You've got to pretend that the Tahs aren't rubbish for this scenario. Young Ratima is going to weigh up playing decent rugby as well as the plastic blonde chicks at the Coogee Bay Hotel.
No way, it is not like the other franchises don't already have at least five Kiwis per team and a number of Kiwi coaches. As it is the Aussie teams are getting a lot of their overseas talent back for 2024. I am not particularly fond of this Super Rugby arrangement with Oz as it is, it is only allowing them to improve. I would much prefer South Africa involved as well as Japan and Argentina.
