@pukunui said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

ust yet. The Lions are still waiting for their first GF

I will make this clear: Jaguares were better for the first 50 minutes that's 62.5% of the game

This while nice was not enough to win games on their own

Why hell would Whitelock go for a lineout when it was the weakest part of their game and the strongest element of the Jaguares game

He was either going for 3 pt straight in front or call a 2nd scrum He chose well

Jaguares unless every team in SA, AUS & most sides in NZ have a distinct advantage in terms of sustainability of success in medium to long term

They're better able to replenish playing stocks due to players heading off to Europe or play mickey mouse rugby in Japan

Lions did well in a era of Super Rugby when it was weak

@Chris-B said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Crazy-Horse said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

I think this game again showed the blue print for shutting down the ABs that Gatland and his British Lions used pretty successfully. They employed a very good rush defence and as well as doing everything in their power to disrupt turn over ball.

The Crusaders only really had one try scoring opportunity and they took it. The same can't be said of the Argies and they will be disappointed. A better team would have capitalised on their opportunities last night and that is what worries me come the World Cup. NZ teams still do not handle the rush defence coupled with having turn over ball disrupted/slowed down. It is painfully obvious.

They had another try scoring opportunity when they used the gambit of kicking for touch and then tapped and drove over the line. but the ball got planted on an Argie leg. Could have had a few more if they'd kicked penalties to touch or scrummed - but, the right decision was to collect three points and stretch the lead.

I've not seen any team yet develop a fool-proof counter to the rush defence. It seems to be a combination of accurately combining variations of short/inside passes, chip kicks and wide kicks to the wing - to stretch the defending teams' resources.

Yep forgot about the chance with the free kick, but I think my point still stands. That was a freakish chance, certainly not one created in general play.

There were times during the first half where the Crusaders were passing the ball to a static player and they were getting nowhere. Both forwards and backs were guilty of it. They had nowhere to go ball in hand. But I was impressed with the way the Crusaders changed their game plan midway through the first half. There was a break in play and you could see a million waterboys run on to the pitch and join the players in their huddle. It was pretty obvious a message was coming from the stands. After that it seemed the Crusaders were happier to play without the ball than with it.

It concerns me NZ's best team never looked settled with ball in hand. They were either static, or were rushed into handling errors or into passing to a team mate in a worse position.

@Crazy-Horse you're concerned a NZ team didn't even have to break the shackles and play out of their skin to beat a team doing exactly that?

@Bones they couldn't break the shackles of the rush defence. It's the Achilles heal of NZ rugby.

@Crazy-Horse said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Bones they couldn't break the shackles of the rush defence. It's the Achilles heal of NZ rugby.

Now I know you're just on the wind up

@Bones cut me some slack. I have been up all night working, or more accurately avoiding work.

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@pukunui said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

ust yet. The Lions are still waiting for their first GF

I will make this clear: Jaguares were better for the first 50 minutes that's 62.5% of the game

This while nice was not enough to win games on their own

Quite right. Rugby was (and perhaps still is) a game where stamina and fitness still count despite the seemingly endless substitutions allowed now. Spend the early part of the game wearing the opposition down (or allowing the opponents to wear themselves down) and capitalise when they have run out of breath near the end leading to scoring heaps of points to win games. Being a supporter of NZ rugby teams it is quite a common occurrence that has worked very well for over 100 years now.

Arrived back home from hospital, this morning. I missed most of the SR final due to an asthma attack. I'm okay again, but it was a bit scary for a while. Absolutely bad timing, of course (although I think I know what triggered it), but fortunately we recorded the final on mysky and I just watched it, although it's not quite the same when you know the final score.

I don't have much to add to comments already made. It was a typical final in which defence won the game. Todd and Read were outstanding in the forwards, and Bridge, Mo'unga and Havili in the backs. Lots of dew on the ground and a wet ball can explain some of the bad ball handling, but it has to be said that the Jaguares also made some really stupid mistakes. Their 10 was terrible. Overall, the Jaguares played reasonably well and they'll learn from their mistakes. The Crusaders looked - as expected - the more experienced team. Awesome how they changed their game plan when the first one didn't work and good decision-making when they went for the points when they were on offer. Mo'unga's goal-kicking is outstanding now and that's good for the RWC. Not sure whether some of the other rookies are ready though. Still think Havili should have been named in the ABs.

And then reading this thread .. jaysus. How can a welcome new addition to the Fern with a fresh point of view turn so quickly into an arrogant, trolling twat. Although it was quite hilarious to read how those who responded to his nonsense were referred to as the "Cantab crew & their cheerleaders", considering many of them support other franchises in SR games other than the final and are quite fervent anti-cantabs 52 weeks per year.

Anyway, 2019 SR season done and dusted. I'll put the Crusaders 2020 blog post up tonight (had already prepared most of it). Can't wait for the Mitre 10 cup now, oh, and yes, some international games ...

@Stargazer and here I was thinking you were a real fan, and you go off to the hospital during the final...

Good to hear you’re okay mate.

@Stargazer a breath-taking final for one of us at least though eh?
Good to see you back on your feet mate

@Siam said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Stargazer a breath-taking final for one of us at least though eh?
Good to see you back on your feet mate

This Dad joke deserves ALL the upvotes!!!

@Stargazer said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

I think I know what triggered it

@Jaguares4real ? He'll be the death of you.

Pleased that you are better, the thread content monitoring has been shit around here.

@booboo has been on top of grammar though, @bones chipping in too.

We've managed to cope but piss taking has been low so I'll have to step up.

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

arted on all the meaningless friendlies that International rugby teams play. What a waste of tim

I'm trying to educate a mostly Kiwi crowd here about the ARG mentality

There been at times an indifference to most Int'l games especially Summer test matches & EOYT to Europe

ARG is unique in having a diabolical travelling schedule and a shallow playing

Add Bad coaching and Management at UAR level & you have a cocktail for disaster

This has only been reversed in last 18 months with Ledesma & Quesada

RWC and Improvements in TRC are the criteria in which ARG measure itself

Test matches they may be called but that's a fancy word for friendlies
This country beating that country in 2017 means fuck all in 2019

Rugby runs on 4 year cycles I couldn't give a fuck about most Pumas games from 2016-19*

Except when they win and then they suddenly become worthwhile? I'm sure a win over the ABs would be met with a shrug of the shoulders due to the obviously friendly and unimportant nature of that encounter.

I thought this "only the RWC games are actual games" bullshit was destroyed when the ABs won 2 in a row. Clearly not.

@nzzp said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

Piling in quite late to this.

You guys are are a bit sensitive to @Jaguares4real . He may be over=egging slightly, but that Jags side can go home feeling like they gave that a real crack. Some magic back play, the lines in midfield were amazing; they found space against a really good Crusaders defence. Looked creative and hard working, they have a bright future.

It'd be piling on less if he saw in the Jaguares victory over the Chiefs what he claims to see in the final.

The Chiefs found space against a really good Crusaders Jaguares defence. Looked creative and hard working, they have a bright future.

Except that's horse shit as an analysis of a game. The Chiefs lost because they dropped the ball about a million times, and you can't win dropping the ball. The Jaguares couldn't finish half chances, and you don't beat good sides by missing half chances.

And that's before we even discuss what would have happened if the Crusaders had needed extra points and decided to take a more offensive approach in the scrums. That could have turned very nasty for the Jaguares.

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

arted on all the meaningless friendlies that International rugby teams play. What a waste of tim

I'm trying to educate a mostly Kiwi crowd here about the ARG mentality

There been at times an indifference to most Int'l games especially Summer test matches & EOYT to Europe

ARG is unique in having a diabolical travelling schedule and a shallow playing

Add Bad coaching and Management at UAR level & you have a cocktail for disaster

This has only been reversed in last 18 months with Ledesma & Quesada

RWC and Improvements in TRC are the criteria in which ARG measure itself

Test matches they may be called but that's a fancy word for friendlies
This country beating that country in 2017 means fuck all in 2019

Rugby runs on 4 year cycles I couldn't give a fuck about most Pumas games from 2016-19*

Except when they win and then they suddenly become worthwhile? I'm sure a win over the ABs would be met with a shrug of the shoulders due to the obviously friendly and unimportant nature of that encounter.

I thought this "only the RWC games are actual games" bullshit was destroyed when the ABs won 2 in a row. Clearly not.

I’ll give old mate one thing with all his trolling and at times bizarre posting....he’s given me a Rugby nation I despise more than England. Well played.

@MN5 that's a bit sad, it's not even an Argie! Pretty sure the actual fans aren't such twats...

Oh and two things can be right at the same time you know.

@Bones said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 that's a bit sad, it's not even an Argie! Pretty sure the actual fans aren't such twats...

Oh and two things can be right at the same time you know.

I met one in England who delighted in telling me Jonah couldn’t defend. I’ve assumed they’re all fluffybunnies based on that. It works for me.

@Stargazer
Glad to hear you are ok. Asthma sucks.
Agree with the rest of your post. Different perspectives are great. Social media style pontificating gets old quickly.

Did Neuter move to Argentina?

@jegga said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

Did Neuter move to Argentina?

Didn't move there. Just a Fan... JAF... Would ya look at that...

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

arted on all the meaningless friendlies that International rugby teams play. What a waste of tim

I'm trying to educate a mostly Kiwi crowd here about the ARG mentality

There been at times an indifference to most Int'l games especially Summer test matches & EOYT to Europe

ARG is unique in having a diabolical travelling schedule and a shallow playing

Add Bad coaching and Management at UAR level & you have a cocktail for disaster

This has only been reversed in last 18 months with Ledesma & Quesada

RWC and Improvements in TRC are the criteria in which ARG measure itself

Test matches they may be called but that's a fancy word for friendlies
This country beating that country in 2017 means fuck all in 2019

Rugby runs on 4 year cycles I couldn't give a fuck about most Pumas games from 2016-19*

Except when they win and then they suddenly become worthwhile? I'm sure a win over the ABs would be met with a shrug of the shoulders due to the obviously friendly and unimportant nature of that encounter.

I thought this "only the RWC games are actual games" bullshit was destroyed when the ABs won 2 in a row. Clearly not.

I’ll give old mate one thing with all his trolling and at times bizarre posting....he’s given me a Rugby nation I despise more than England. Well played.

Bit unfair mate. This guy isn't even Argentinian. Not even sure if he speaks Spanish.

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

I'm trying to educate a mostly Kiwi crowd here about the ARG mentality
Rugby runs on 4 year cycles I couldn't give a fuck about most Pumas games from 2016-19*

Except when they win and then they suddenly become worthwhile? I'm sure a win over the ABs would be met with a shrug of the shoulders due to the obviously friendly and unimportant nature of that encounter.

I thought this "only the RWC games are actual games" bullshit was destroyed when the ABs won 2 in a row. Clearly not.

I'll make this simple as you're being wilfully obtuse and twisting my words

If Pumas beat ABs in 12 days It would be a historic win - not been done before but ultimately in a wold cup year mean fuck all

Symbolic wins while nice in records book means little

Bigger fish to fry - RWC prep is more important than games no one will care about in 2 months

Comparing the ABs to Los Pumas is asinine

They have vastly different playing stocks, priorities & commercial arrangements

A team like ABs can go all out for every game and competition as they have the cattle

Pumas can't as they don't have the cattle and a diabolical travelling schedule

@pukunui said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Stargazer
Glad to hear you are ok. Asthma sucks.
Agree with the rest of your post. Different perspectives are great. Social media style pontificating gets old quickly.

WTF does Social Media pontificating mean? :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

Are you indicating you like different perspectives but my methods are not to your liking......

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Bones said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 that's a bit sad, it's not even an Argie! Pretty sure the actual fans aren't such twats...

Oh and two things can be right at the same time you know.

I met one in England who delighted in telling me Jonah couldn’t defend. I’ve assumed they’re all fluffybunnies based on that. It works for me.

Good to see that you're such an open minded guy not prone to making vast sweeping generalisations based on a small sample of interactions

Truly a learned man with awareness for differing cultures :clapping_hands: :clapping_hands:

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Bones said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 that's a bit sad, it's not even an Argie! Pretty sure the actual fans aren't such twats...

Oh and two things can be right at the same time you know.

I met one in England who delighted in telling me Jonah couldn’t defend. I’ve assumed they’re all fluffybunnies based on that. It works for me.

Good to see that you're such an open minded guy not prone to making vast sweeping generalisations based on a small sample of interactions

Truly a learned man with awareness for differing cultures :clapping_hands: :clapping_hands:

I love the steak, red wine and the women.

It's the Rugby fans who are fluffybunnies. You have done nothing to dispel this view.

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

I'm trying to educate a mostly Kiwi crowd here about the ARG mentality
Rugby runs on 4 year cycles I couldn't give a fuck about most Pumas games from 2016-19*

Except when they win and then they suddenly become worthwhile? I'm sure a win over the ABs would be met with a shrug of the shoulders due to the obviously friendly and unimportant nature of that encounter.

I thought this "only the RWC games are actual games" bullshit was destroyed when the ABs won 2 in a row. Clearly not.

I'll make this simple as you're being wilfully obtuse and twisting my words

If Pumas beat ABs in 12 days It would be a historic win - not been done before but ultimately in a wold cup year mean fuck all

Symbolic wins while nice in records book means little

Bigger fish to fry - RWC prep is more important than games no one will care about in 2 months

Comparing the ABs to Los Pumas is asinine

They have vastly different playing stocks, priorities & commercial arrangements

A team like ABs can go all out for every game and competition as they have the cattle

Pumas can't as they don't have the cattle and a diabolical travelling schedule

OK, so based on this point ( I'll let @Bones address the spelling and grammatical issues ) if the Pumas win I don't want to hear a PEEP out of you other than a brief nod with the kind of display of emotion that would make the 1960s All Blacks look like Richard Simmons.

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

It's the Rugby fans who are fluffybunnies. You have done nothing to dispel this view.

At least you have good taste

I'm not one for kissing arse

ABs and NZ rugby set the standard

You don't go kiss the ring and be happy to play the game

I'll leave that to the clapping seals at Rugby Games aka Japanese fans :face_vomiting:

I'm going for the knees you look for the weak points in opponents

In the case of NZ, its post RWC and if the mickey mouse league in Japan decide to mirror their season to SR Long Term

@MN5

I'll acknowledge it but I won't celebrate

I'm looking at the bigger picture

TRC this year doesn't matter and never does in a RWC year

Performance is all I'm looking at

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

It's the Rugby fans who are fluffybunnies. You have done nothing to dispel this view.

At least you have good taste

I'm not one for kissing arse

ABs and NZ rugby set the standard

****You don't go kiss the ring and be happy to play the game

I'll leave that to the clapping seals at Rugby Games aka Japanese fans :face_vomiting:

I'm going for the knees you look for the weak points in opponents

In the case of NZ, its post RWC and if the mickey mouse league in Japan decide to mirror their season to SR Long Term****

This post was actually going ok until after the third line when it descended into some of the most baffling shit I've read in my 13 years on here. Can anyone enlighten me ?

@MN5

I'll try again

NZ rugby is the strongest in world rugby You don't improve by settling for mediocrity and playing nice

I'l leave that Japan to accomplish in every facet of their game

IF they decide to have their Top League clash with SR regularly then NZ will be screwed big time as will AUS & SA

Enlightened now

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5

I'll try again

NZ rugby is the strongest in world rugby You don't improve by settling for mediocrity and playing nice

I'l leave that Japan to accomplish in every facet of their game

IF they decide to have their Top League clash with SR regularly then NZ will be screwed big time as will AUS & SA

Enlightened now

But Japan beat South Africa in the last World Cup if I'm not mistaken.

How is this mediocre ?

@MN5 said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5

I'll try again

NZ rugby is the strongest in world rugby You don't improve by settling for mediocrity and playing nice

I'l leave that Japan to accomplish in every facet of their game

IF they decide to have their Top League clash with SR regularly then NZ will be screwed big time as will AUS & SA

Enlightened now

But Japan beat South Africa in the last World Cup if I'm not mistaken.

How is this mediocre ?

A nice symbolic win 4 years ago They went on to get battered by Scotland

Not finish 1st or 2nd in the group & be eliminated in the 1st round

Then consider they've a team full of Mercenaries & Fake Japanese :face_vomiting: :face_vomiting:

Wimpie van ver Walt - very Japanese

Luke Thompson - totally Japanese

International Rugby is not meant to be a place to shop around and play for countries of convenience

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5

Test matches they may be called but that's a fancy word for friendlies
This country beating that country in 2017 means fuck all in 2019

Rugby runs on 4 year cycles I couldn't give a fuck about most Pumas games from 2016-19

These are your words. There is no twisting going on. Rugby has and hopefully never will be like soccer with meaningless friendlies between the big tournaments. Yes some games are more important than others, but labelling them all friendlies is utter nonsense. It isn't just 3.5 years of shits and giggles and a few weeks of the real thing.

Why would a Puma win mean fuck all? You reckon the Irish will think their win last year will mean fuck all if they get done at the RWC?

**Comparing the ABs to Los Pumas is asinine

They have vastly different playing stocks, priorities & commercial arrangements

A team like ABs can go all out for every game and competition as they have the cattle

Pumas can't as they don't have the cattle and a diabolical travelling schedule**

Where was I comparing the Pumas with the ABs? That's just weird.

The ABs certainly don't go all out in every game. Plenty of questionable players have been capped in recent years just to give the stars a break. Obviously the Pumas don't have the same depth, but using that as an argument for treating every test until the RWC as a training run is straight out bizarre.

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5

Test matches they may be called but that's a fancy word for friendlies
This country beating that country in 2017 means fuck all in 2019

Rugby runs on 4 year cycles I couldn't give a fuck about most Pumas games from 2016-19

These are your words. There is no twisting going on. Rugby has and hopefully never will be like soccer with meaningless friendlies between the big tournaments. Yes some games are more important than others, but labelling them all friendlies is utter nonsense. It isn't just 3.5 years of shits and giggles and a few weeks of the real thing.

Why would a Puma win mean fuck all? You reckon the Irish will think their win last year will mean fuck all if they get done at the RWC?

**Comparing the ABs to Los Pumas is asinine

They have vastly different playing stocks, priorities & commercial arrangements

A team like ABs can go all out for every game and competition as they have the cattle

Pumas can't as they don't have the cattle and a diabolical travelling schedule**

Where was I comparing the Pumas with the ABs? That's just weird.

The ABs certainly don't go all out in every game. Plenty of questionable players have been capped in recent years just to give the stars a break. Obviously the Pumas don't have the same depth, but using that as an argument for treating every test until the RWC as a training run is straight out bizarre.

That's a fantastic analogy, took them over a hundred years then they did it twice in a couple of years. I hope Scotland can say the same someday. I can guarantee there'll be a shitload of piss and good stories aplenty whenever those Irish teams have reunions in years to come.

I've mentioned it before and hasn't seemed to have sunk in @Jaguares4real but to try and dismiss virtually ANY international match as a "friendly" is pretty damn insulting to well over a centuries worth of international rugby.

If you want friendlies stick to watching Soccer.

@MN5

It would be a fantastic analogy IF the games were played in the summer of RWC years But they weren't Chicago was 2016 and Dublin was 2018 Both EOYT tours for NZ Good for the Irish They can celebrate for I care

I can assure you that if Ireland don;t reach the Semi Finals of the RWC at least they'll have failed spectacularly and Schmidt will have a black mark next to his Ireland legacy

Argentina beat the crap out of Ireland in 2015 was bad enough in itself

Now I understand that Test Matches are sacred but they're not all created equally and of equal importance

New age of rugby Game is getting increasingly brutal Got to preserve players better & not got all out for matches that are essentially friendlies in name only

For Los Pumas I'll state their priority are TRC matches every year when there is NOT a RWC They need to and are starting to cut their cloth accordingly

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5

It would be a fantastic analogy IF the games were played in the summer of RWC years But they weren't Chicago was 2016 and Dublin was 2018 Both EOYT tours for NZ Good for the Irish They can celebrate for I care

I can assure you that if Ireland don;t reach the Semi Finals of the RWC at least they'll have failed spectacularly and Schmidt will have a black mark next to his Ireland legacy

Argentina beat the crap out of Ireland in 2015 was bad enough in itself

Now I understand that Test Matches are sacred but they're not all created equally and of equal importance

New age of rugby Game is getting increasingly brutal Got to preserve players better & not got all out for matches that are essentially friendlies in name only

For Los Pumas I'll state their priority are TRC matches every year when there is NOT a RWC They need to and are starting to cut their cloth accordingly

All fair point honestly, but I'd add one thing:

The 2018 win by the Irish might not have happened without the 2016 win. The confidence the Irish will have going into the 2019 tournament that they can knock us over will (rightly) be quite high, given recent results, which are on the back of wins in "friendlies".

If what you are saying is right (and who am I to question) ... then I think I see why they haven't achieved much in the TRC.

@Jaguares4real said in SR Final: Crusaders v Jaguares:

@MN5

It would be a fantastic analogy IF the games were played in the summer of RWC years But they weren't Chicago was 2016 and Dublin was 2018 Both EOYT tours for NZ Good for the Irish They can celebrate for I care

I can assure you that if Ireland don;t reach the Semi Finals of the RWC at least they'll have failed spectacularly and Schmidt will have a black mark next to his Ireland legacy

Argentina beat the crap out of Ireland in 2015 was bad enough in itself

Now I understand that Test Matches are sacred but they're not all created equally and of equal importance

New age of rugby Game is getting increasingly brutal Got to preserve players better & not got all out for matches that are essentially friendlies in name only

For Los Pumas I'll state their priority are TRC matches every year when there is NOT a RWC They need to and are starting to cut their cloth accordingly

"I know ya tink it's a great win lads but it happened outta de woorld cup coicle so it doesn't really mean a ting"

So you're saying that's how the conversation would have gone in the dressing room after the game ? Wow.

What a waste of time Ireland, shame on you.

Regarding friendlies . Quentin Poulsen of the infamous "South Africa to host 2023 rwc " thread was a big fan of trying to downplay results as friendlies . His insistence that games were friendlies despite time and time again it being pointed out they were not and ranting about rwc hosting rights along with his mad fanboy posts about Argentina got him banned from pretty much every rugby forum on the internet .

heres the loser posting as Rowan here https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/472/2023-expanded-world-cup-in-south-africa

Booooooom

Threads gone a bit quiet , was it something I said?