Why would England opt to take a risk at extra time only to then have to get back to the same position again to score. It’s a non option.
First you have to make the kick or lose. Then you have to play yourself back into your scoring option position.
Extra time isn’t golden point either so NZ also get chances to score.
I can’t even see why this is an argument.

Given that NZ competed at the first lineout it was obvious they would do so again so England did have to bank on taking the throw. If there was another option available it may have been a tap. NZ have shown vulnerability against one off runners close to the line. But, as others have said, a little knock on or a held up are more likely from that than from a maul.
If England had won from a lineout drive it would have been a real downer on the night. Not just because of the loss but because a celebration of the game and an intent to play free flowing entertaining rugby would have lost as well.

@taniwharugby said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@canefan yeah I was more meaning we have less than a year to some other WC...

And no Wayne.....

What do we have to give him to join the ABs for 6 months next year....

@canefan said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

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What do we have to give him to join the ABs for 6 months next year....

Wouldn’t make any difference. Smith has always been his own man or has been good when a head coach has given him full control over certain aspects.
If he retires it’s a great note to go out on.

@booboo

Spoke to the crowds after left in the pub but I was essentially the only kiwi there!

Pretty somber mood as they were all a bit shell shocked. Most of their fans really did not think they could lose.

Camera crews following a couple of people clearly expecting a different result and you could see the collective confusion that this wasn't the story they wanted/ expected to tell.

The All Blacks caravan comes to Twickenham next and since I live there I would love to do a mini ceremony where some of the men could do a lift on behalf of the Ferns

nearly through remote at tv when durmont tapped the penalty instead of kicking for lineout.

After a year of watching teams rime wasting due to poor fitness (looking at you Ireland), it was particularly sweet to watch time wasting backfire so spectacularly.

@Damo said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Damo I don't think she would have missed from in front and wasn't there still time after that? England then just needed to hold the ball and work their way up the field as they'd just done fairly easily. I don't think NZ would have challenged any lineouts unless 5m out.

Pressure kick in the last moments of a RWC final is never a gimme. It wasn't from straight in front. I'd say 80% chance is fair.

I thought the first penalty was pretty much in front of the posts?

@Bones they had one earlier that was dead centre when trailing by 3 i think, where they went for the corner instead, and that was Cockayne's hat trick IIRC

@Kirwan said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

After a year of watching teams rime wasting due to poor fitness (looking at you Ireland), it was particularly sweet to watch time wasting backfire so spectacularly.

That was brilliant. Fair to say though that I haven't seen the men's game reffed by a team of 4 before. Not to the extent that they are looking at things other than foul play. It did actually work well as the TMO would clarify stuff without the ref even having to look. Made for far less stoppage time.

@Crucial think inside the first 10 or so mins there had been almost no stoppages.

Maybe those looking after the men's and women's games from the refereeing side need to meet as there seems to be a different approach to a number of things.

On Wayne Smith, he must like finals at Eden Park.

Crusaders 1998
All Blacks 2011
Black Ferns 2022

@Kirwan said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

After a year of watching teams rime wasting due to poor fitness (looking at you Ireland), it was particularly sweet to watch time wasting backfire so spectacularly.

Only a year?

@Crucial said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Has anyone seen any reaction from NZR over this win? Lots of SM posts doing the rounds and apart from bog standard corporate style congrats `i haven't seen a thing.
The comms last night pointedly called out Mark Robinson to get behind things as quite a dig.

Good old NZR at risk of missing the boat again.

What are you expecting?

Announce a fully planned, fully funded full time professional comp?

Pretty much all they can do at the moment is "yay".

The Ferns try last night straight after halftime will surely win try of the year. That was something else.

what an amazing game and fantastic, although slightly fortuitous win.
the colors of the uniforms and playing styles made it appear at times like Black Panthers Vs Polar Bears

@booboo a lot of heat on her coming into the WC. She was superb in the final. Exceptional kicking came. I wish A Smith had her kicking smarts.

I recommend watching the video in this article (the photos are great, too):

@Hooroo said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@booboo a lot of heat on her coming into the WC. She was superb in the final. Exceptional kicking came. I wish A Smith had her kicking smarts.

Showed great leadership. And she probably could have kicked more because Demant didn't seem confident to kick at all, and the one touch finder I remember her taking flew less than 20 metres

@Hooroo said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@booboo a lot of heat on her coming into the WC. She was superb in the final. Exceptional kicking came. I wish A Smith had her kicking smarts.

A lot of heat on her on the Fern during the cup. There was a Black Ferns thread where it was almost alternating between posts complaining about her selection with posts about how great a coach Smith was. I did chuckle to myself.

@Nepia said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Hooroo said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@booboo a lot of heat on her coming into the WC. She was superb in the final. Exceptional kicking came. I wish A Smith had her kicking smarts.

A lot of heat on her on the Fern during the cup. There was a Black Ferns thread where it was almost alternating between posts complaining about her selection with posts about how great a coach Smith was. I did chuckle to myself.

Quite frankly Cocksedge deserved it. She was much better in that last game but still not great.

Her tackling is shocking, just trying to grab a jersey, she missed several key tackles leading to a try or two.

Her passing is weak.

Yes, credit to her that she improved her kicking but that was all IMHO.

@RoninWC said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Nepia said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Hooroo said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@booboo a lot of heat on her coming into the WC. She was superb in the final. Exceptional kicking came. I wish A Smith had her kicking smarts.

A lot of heat on her on the Fern during the cup. There was a Black Ferns thread where it was almost alternating between posts complaining about her selection with posts about how great a coach Smith was. I did chuckle to myself.

Quite frankly Cocksedge deserved it. She was much better in that last game but still not great.

Her tackling is shocking, just trying to grab a jersey, she missed several key tackles leading to a try or two.

Her passing is weak.

Yes, credit to her that she improved her kicking but that was all IMHO.

The main point of my post was more about the fawning over Smith who was selecting her while complaining about her.

@Nepia said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@RoninWC said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Nepia said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Hooroo said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@booboo a lot of heat on her coming into the WC. She was superb in the final. Exceptional kicking came. I wish A Smith had her kicking smarts.

A lot of heat on her on the Fern during the cup. There was a Black Ferns thread where it was almost alternating between posts complaining about her selection with posts about how great a coach Smith was. I did chuckle to myself.

Quite frankly Cocksedge deserved it. She was much better in that last game but still not great.

Her tackling is shocking, just trying to grab a jersey, she missed several key tackles leading to a try or two.

Her passing is weak.

Yes, credit to her that she improved her kicking but that was all IMHO.

The main point of my post was more about the fawning over Smith who was selecting her while complaining about her.

Fair enough @Nepia, wasn't having a go either.

I certainly agree with you there... There were a few things like some sketchy selections and sticking with Renee Holmes to prove Smith isn't a god but damn, in the after glow of that win, he's damn close :grinning_face_with_big_eyes:

@RoninWC said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Nepia said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Hooroo said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@booboo a lot of heat on her coming into the WC. She was superb in the final. Exceptional kicking came. I wish A Smith had her kicking smarts.

A lot of heat on her on the Fern during the cup. There was a Black Ferns thread where it was almost alternating between posts complaining about her selection with posts about how great a coach Smith was. I did chuckle to myself.

Quite frankly Cocksedge deserved it. She was much better in that last game but still not great.

Her tackling is shocking, just trying to grab a jersey, she missed several key tackles leading to a try or two.

Her passing is weak.

Yes, credit to her that she improved her kicking but that was all IMHO.

Yeah I thought we could have done with dragging Cocksedge a bit earlier to speed up the game, England were already out on their feet after two phases, I reckon we coulda had more points

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

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An All Black will get red carded against England for something fairly innocuous and they will forget about the women.

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

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I wonder if he discussed it with Portia after the match? Not that she would have remembered even if he had....

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

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Fuck off Simon

You've let yourself down there

Your charges had the biggest opportunity - 2 actually - to give the biggest statement and they blew it

End of

You would not have been saying fuck all if the shoe was on the other foot

Rinse the sourness from your mouth with some quality NZ grapes

@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

View embedded content

Fuck off Simon

You've let yourself down there

Your charges had the biggest opportunity - 2 actually - to give the biggest statement and they blew it

End of

You would not have been saying fuck all if the shoe was on the other foot

Rinse the sourness from your mouth with some quality NZ grapes

Having said that, the 20 min RC is required.

Hmmm...

@canefan said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

I wonder if he discussed it with Portia after the match? Not that she would have remembered even if he had....

he did but Portia then rambled on about the quality of mercy, the gentle rain from heaven, and being mightest of the mightiest. There was a monarch and a sceptre in there somewhere as well. The bit about the dread and fear of kings was of course regendered. "We 've got some scary sheilas over there, eh?"

"The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The thronèd monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptered sway."

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

View embedded content

20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.

@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

View embedded content

20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.

OK I'll play

Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful

It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)

Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.

I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.

But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.

In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.

@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.

In the imaginary game I watched anyway.

@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.

In the imaginary game I watched anyway.

That’s novel having a reserve for a red card

@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:

Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?

View embedded content

20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.

OK I'll play

Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful

It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)

Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.

I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.

But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.

In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.

Hence the logic behind my suggestion that 'punishment' needs to be linked with the outcome of the act. Not sure of exactly how you'd do it .

What I don't get is how for all this talk about 'protecting the players' we saw two England players return to play after head knocks during the game. One flopped out and didn't move during play and another was very unsteady on her feet. We also see head knocks not attended to for ages and attitudes of trying to keep players on the field instead of taking them off. If player safety really is the focus why aren't head injury players removed from the field for assessment immediately? Why are HIAs designed to 'pass' a player?
I guess that what I'm saying is that the big focus and argument for RCs around head impact seems to be a clumsy ambulance at the bottom of the cliff and isn't reducing the core problems.
I think that players in this RWC were wearing mouthgards that recorded impacts and stress on the head. Will be interesting when that data all comes out.