@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@GibbonRib said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

I don't think there's anything wrong with a YC in that situation without prior warning,

He can justify his decisions and ask us to accept his errors and that's fine, as long as they even-handed. They weren't.

I don't think I've ever bagged a ref for being biased since they went neutral (not even Barnes) and hate criticism of them as they generally do a bloody good job and actually make bugger all mistakes - but as a neutral, Carley reffing last night deserves looking at for more than incompetence.

But if he was biased or corrupt, how do you explain the various Fijian offences that were missed?

Hanlon's Razor says "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

I reckon you can substitute stupudity with incompetence and it will still hold true.

But yes, he fell far short of the minimum expectation of consistency

@GibbonRib

Hanlon's Razor says "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Take your point, but as Lee Atwater said: "Perception is Reality". It isn't just the stupidity or incompetence, it's the look.

60th minute, Biggar should have been yellow carded.
Gets up offside.
Never looked like retreating.
Took the halfback.

If pulling down a maul is a professional foul, so is that.

Subsequent penalty awarded for But it isn't just the ones blown, is all the other shithousery - Wales desperately off their feet at every ruck and scrabbling hands.

The warning didn't take into account the nature of either penalty I might add.

@GibbonRib you also see yellows whipped out all the time for cynical, offside, ball tampering infringements a couple of metres out from the tryline. Not a couple more penalties then a warning.

You also see yellow cards for no arms tackles aimed at the knee - not comments of "no foul play" followed by penalising the other team 30 seconds later for a seatbelt tackle of minimal effect.

It's these type of incidents that give it the "look" of something more than incompetence.

And again at 76 Fiji have carved them open. They're 2 metres out and the arm goes out again. Back that into all the time wasting and cynical bullshit.

That's a yellow every day.

@Bones @Victor-Meldrew

Yeah, you're right, plenty of incidents where Wales could and should have had another card.

I'm just wary of ascribing it to corruption, when incompetence is a perfectly adequate explanation.

Look at the Rassie inspired farce during the last Lions tour - thousands of Boks fans will go to their graves swearing that the refs were (and still are) conspiring to cheat them, despite all evidence to the contrary. As you say, perception becomes reality. Don't want to play that game.

Still, at the end Fiji had a fairly straightforward chance to score a try and kick the conversion from close enough.

They still had their fate in their hands - despite any issue they may have with the officiating - and couldn't execute.

@GibbonRib sure - but that's Bokke fans complaining about refs in Bokke games. Quite different.

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

They still had their fate in their hands - despite any issue they may have with the officiating - and couldn't execute.

I find this line of thinking a bit insincere. It would've been a helluva lot easier to execute it they weren't getting shafted.

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

Still, at the end Fiji had a fairly straightforward chance to score a try and kick the conversion from close enough.

They still had their fate in their hands - despite any issue they may have with the officiating - and couldn't execute.

Yeah, after two hours of blood, sweat and tear-inducing refereeing it came down to this moment. Still can't quite believe he didn't take it, Radradra of all people.

I had a mixture of emotions, I was absolutely sure we'd lost the game, then the relief that we'd hung on - but it's hard to see it end that way. You want to win through some great defence forcing the turnover, not an error like that. Feel for the Fijian players & fans.

@Bones

Well this is Fiji fans complaining about refing in Fiji games (yeah I know you're Kiwis, but don't go telling me you were neutral for that one (and definitely don't give me any of the "I was neutral until the ref started being biased"))

Go to a Welsh forum and they'll give you a big list of the calls that went Fiji's way. That's just how the game is.

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

60th minute, Biggar should have been yellow carded.
Gets up offside.
Never looked like retreating.
Took the halfback.

If pulling down a maul is a professional foul, so is that.

Subsequent penalty awarded for But it isn't just the ones blown, is all the other shithousery - Wales desperately off their feet at every ruck and scrabbling hands.

The warning didn't take into account the nature of either penalty I might add.

As I mentioned previously the ruck which Biggar infringed at should never have happened because the tap and go was an infringement itself and Wales should have been awarded a free kick for dummying the tap & go

Carley waved play on despite warning Fiji for doing it just seconds before

@GibbonRib I'm neutral

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

60th minute, Biggar should have been yellow carded.
Gets up offside.
Never looked like retreating.
Took the halfback.

If pulling down a maul is a professional foul, so is that.

Subsequent penalty awarded for But it isn't just the ones blown, is all the other shithousery - Wales desperately off their feet at every ruck and scrabbling hands.

The warning didn't take into account the nature of either penalty I might add.

As I mentioned previously the ruck which Biggar infringed at should never have happened because the tap and go was an infringement itself and Wales should have been awarded a free kick for dummying the tap & go

Carley waved play on despite warning Fiji for doing it just seconds before

That would have been hilarious if he'd FKd Fiji for that while Wales were all offside in front of the line.

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

60th minute, Biggar should have been yellow carded.
Gets up offside.
Never looked like retreating.
Took the halfback.

If pulling down a maul is a professional foul, so is that.

Subsequent penalty awarded for But it isn't just the ones blown, is all the other shithousery - Wales desperately off their feet at every ruck and scrabbling hands.

The warning didn't take into account the nature of either penalty I might add.

As I mentioned previously the ruck which Biggar infringed at should never have happened because the tap and go was an infringement itself and Wales should have been awarded a free kick for dummying the tap & go

Carley waved play on despite warning Fiji for doing it just seconds before

I believe the second time around it was different because he wasn't faking at tapping the ball.

@Bones said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

They still had their fate in their hands - despite any issue they may have with the officiating - and couldn't execute.

I find this line of thinking a bit insincere. It would've been a helluva lot easier to execute it they weren't getting shafted.

But then we would be saying " in spite of" rather than ' because of"

Was watching this while at gym this morning and while I guess it was 50% watching listening, it was a decent game. It was really on the nose that there were no cards for Wales after repeated penalties on the line but then Fiji got one almost straight away. In the end I thought Wales were more composed and deserved to win. Actually I was driving home with 10 to go and thought Wales had it in the bag. Got home and realised it was mega squeaky bum time for Wales. Would truly have been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

@GibbonRib said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@Bones

Well this is Fiji fans complaining about refing in Fiji games (yeah I know you're Kiwis, but don't go telling me you were neutral for that one (and definitely don't give me any of the "I was neutral until the ref started being biased"))

Go to a Welsh forum and they'll give you a big list of the calls that went Fiji's way. That's just how the game is.

Hang on, if we are NZers we can't be neutral? Interesting, interesting.

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

See my earlier post, two of Fiji's four tries should not have happened

But in this fantasy world, Biggar was sent off for a professional foul/penalty try under the posts - that cancels two of Wales tries and adds a converted try to Fiji...

So 33-18 to Fiji? Not even a bonus point.

@PecoTrain said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

See my earlier post, two of Fiji's four tries should not have happened

But in this fantasy world, Biggar was sent off for a professional foul/penalty try under the posts - that cancels two of Wales tries and adds a converted try to Fiji...

So 33-18 to Fiji? Not even a bonus point.

Read what I wrote earlier

Series of shit calls from Carley allowed successive things to happen

This can go round and round and round depending on who we support and our interpretations of how Carley did and most certainly did not officiate the match

Ultimately despite the inconsistent, poor refereeing Fiji blew the opportunity to be in a position to convert for the match

That's on them

I thought this was a bloody good game with both sides showing real positive intent (Cambrian time wasting apart). Carley, without doubt had a shocker. He's never been one of my preferred refs. Wales did enough to warrant the win IMO but if Fiji had played for 80 minutes like the current team can, instead of 30 minutes it would probably have been a different story.

Back to the reffing. No corruption, just a very poor and mostly one sided performance. Sucks for Fiji but we've all been there.

@MiketheSnow I'll frame this for later in the competition if Wales are on the receiving end of a "Carley"

This isn’t really a tough one. And no….I’m not friends with any referees …But it is and will remain one of the toughest jobs in the sporting world. Completely thankless task being a ref. Of course they make mistakes and of course the side that’s getting pinged more has rights to call for consistency. Like I mentioned in another post, standards are massively variable from game to game and it really detracts enjoyment. It makes me want to go and watch schools rugby where it just about the actual sport. None of this pantomime and Theatre that it has become.

Without arguing about complications the “released” video brought for Bok fans on top of what was already perceived to be a massive persecution complex by world rugby, I will say a couple of things.

First, standards have clearly been abysmal.
Second, there is no real change coming.
Thirdly, I will be the 1st to stand up and callout crap refereeing in a match where I’m completely neutral. And as I’m sure we can all agree, they really haven’t been very great at all considering that this is the pinnacle competition.

To all the referees out there…. Respect. Obviously it’s a ridiculously complicated rule book. Just blow the same for both teams, and most people will be happy...

Sure I can remember a Biggar game a few years ago I recall when he was so busy arguing that he missed something and Wales conceded points. Anyone?

@game_film Definitely rings a bell.

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow I'll frame this for later in the competition if Wales are on the receiving end of a "Carley"

Alain Roland says hi

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

View embedded content

Despite being down to 14 men we had enough opportunities to win the match and go to the Final

But we weren't accurate enough

Much like Fiji last night

@MiketheSnow Touché

@mantissanet said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

To all the referees out there…. Respect. Obviously it’s a ridiculously complicated rule book. Just blow the same for both teams, and most people will be happy...

There's a massive difference between a wrong call and a bad call. Cricket analogy - marginal LBW on where things pitch; may be wrong, but not bad. But then you get the bad calls - balls edged to nearly first slip which are 'not out'. DRS has done a huge amount.

The second issue is around the laws the refs are given. The framework is abysmal, subjective and too hard to consistently apply. That is on World Rugby.

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

60th minute, Biggar should have been yellow carded.
Gets up offside.
Never looked like retreating.
Took the halfback.

If pulling down a maul is a professional foul, so is that.

Subsequent penalty awarded for But it isn't just the ones blown, is all the other shithousery - Wales desperately off their feet at every ruck and scrabbling hands.

The warning didn't take into account the nature of either penalty I might add.

As I mentioned previously the ruck which Biggar infringed at should never have happened because the tap and go was an infringement itself and Wales should have been awarded a free kick for dummying the tap & go

Carley waved play on despite warning Fiji for doing it just seconds before

Actually think they did the second one well.

First was definitely a feint at a tap. Second he just moved away.

But if I was Welsh I'd probably have the same opinion.

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

60th minute, Biggar should have been yellow carded.
Gets up offside.
Never looked like retreating.
Took the halfback.

If pulling down a maul is a professional foul, so is that.

Subsequent penalty awarded for But it isn't just the ones blown, is all the other shithousery - Wales desperately off their feet at every ruck and scrabbling hands.

The warning didn't take into account the nature of either penalty I might add.

As I mentioned previously the ruck which Biggar infringed at should never have happened because the tap and go was an infringement itself and Wales should have been awarded a free kick for dummying the tap & go

Carley waved play on despite warning Fiji for doing it just seconds before

I believe the second time around it was different because he wasn't faking at tapping the ball.

#booboo

Great minds.

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

View embedded content

IIRC, Sam was pretty magnanimous about the RC even immediately after the game. Many Welsh fans weren't and were screaming blue murder, but he refused to complain about it

@GibbonRib said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

View embedded content

IIRC, Sam was pretty magnanimous about the RC even immediately after the game. Many Welsh fans weren't and were screaming blue murder, but he refused to complain about it

Yeah, he’s a class act. English you know.

@Catogrande said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@GibbonRib said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

View embedded content

IIRC, Sam was pretty magnanimous about the RC even immediately after the game. Many Welsh fans weren't and were screaming blue murder, but he refused to complain about it

Yeah, he’s a class act. English you know.

Which is it? Make up your mind

@GibbonRib Touché

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

View embedded content

Despite being down to 14 men we had enough opportunities to win the match and go to the Final

But we weren't accurate enough

Much like Fiji last night

With the big difference being that was a disadvantage of Wales own making.

I don't think Fiji should have won! I think all refs should hold the teams to the same standard and he didn't. Anyway hopefully you stuff Australia and so do Fiji

The ref wasn't good, and he wasn't consistent, so yeah hold him accountable for that.

But this narrative that he was unfair to one side and not the other is a false one.

Mikethesnow has already pointed out that both of Fiji's 2nd half tries shouldn't have been allowed because they came from scrums where the Fiji hooker stood up (I didn't notice at the time, but I went back and checked and he's absolutely right). And there are plenty of other examples of dodgy calls, in both directions.

@GibbonRib iirc, he popped when the scrum was going forward, regardless the ball was coming out of the scrum and penalties are always ignored in that case. So nothing wrong there.

Might not have happened if Wales had a couple of guys in the bin though eh...