@mantissanet said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

To all the referees out there…. Respect. Obviously it’s a ridiculously complicated rule book. Just blow the same for both teams, and most people will be happy...

There's a massive difference between a wrong call and a bad call. Cricket analogy - marginal LBW on where things pitch; may be wrong, but not bad. But then you get the bad calls - balls edged to nearly first slip which are 'not out'. DRS has done a huge amount.

The second issue is around the laws the refs are given. The framework is abysmal, subjective and too hard to consistently apply. That is on World Rugby.

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

60th minute, Biggar should have been yellow carded.
Gets up offside.
Never looked like retreating.
Took the halfback.

If pulling down a maul is a professional foul, so is that.

Subsequent penalty awarded for But it isn't just the ones blown, is all the other shithousery - Wales desperately off their feet at every ruck and scrabbling hands.

The warning didn't take into account the nature of either penalty I might add.

As I mentioned previously the ruck which Biggar infringed at should never have happened because the tap and go was an infringement itself and Wales should have been awarded a free kick for dummying the tap & go

Carley waved play on despite warning Fiji for doing it just seconds before

Actually think they did the second one well.

First was definitely a feint at a tap. Second he just moved away.

But if I was Welsh I'd probably have the same opinion.

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

60th minute, Biggar should have been yellow carded.
Gets up offside.
Never looked like retreating.
Took the halfback.

If pulling down a maul is a professional foul, so is that.

Subsequent penalty awarded for But it isn't just the ones blown, is all the other shithousery - Wales desperately off their feet at every ruck and scrabbling hands.

The warning didn't take into account the nature of either penalty I might add.

As I mentioned previously the ruck which Biggar infringed at should never have happened because the tap and go was an infringement itself and Wales should have been awarded a free kick for dummying the tap & go

Carley waved play on despite warning Fiji for doing it just seconds before

I believe the second time around it was different because he wasn't faking at tapping the ball.

#booboo

Great minds.

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

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IIRC, Sam was pretty magnanimous about the RC even immediately after the game. Many Welsh fans weren't and were screaming blue murder, but he refused to complain about it

@GibbonRib said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

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IIRC, Sam was pretty magnanimous about the RC even immediately after the game. Many Welsh fans weren't and were screaming blue murder, but he refused to complain about it

Yeah, he’s a class act. English you know.

@Catogrande said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@GibbonRib said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

View embedded content

IIRC, Sam was pretty magnanimous about the RC even immediately after the game. Many Welsh fans weren't and were screaming blue murder, but he refused to complain about it

Yeah, he’s a class act. English you know.

Which is it? Make up your mind

@GibbonRib Touché

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow as red as they come these days. Even Sam said so

View embedded content

Despite being down to 14 men we had enough opportunities to win the match and go to the Final

But we weren't accurate enough

Much like Fiji last night

With the big difference being that was a disadvantage of Wales own making.

I don't think Fiji should have won! I think all refs should hold the teams to the same standard and he didn't. Anyway hopefully you stuff Australia and so do Fiji

The ref wasn't good, and he wasn't consistent, so yeah hold him accountable for that.

But this narrative that he was unfair to one side and not the other is a false one.

Mikethesnow has already pointed out that both of Fiji's 2nd half tries shouldn't have been allowed because they came from scrums where the Fiji hooker stood up (I didn't notice at the time, but I went back and checked and he's absolutely right). And there are plenty of other examples of dodgy calls, in both directions.

@GibbonRib iirc, he popped when the scrum was going forward, regardless the ball was coming out of the scrum and penalties are always ignored in that case. So nothing wrong there.

Might not have happened if Wales had a couple of guys in the bin though eh...

@Bones said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@GibbonRib iirc, he popped when the scrum was going forward, regardless the ball was coming out of the scrum and penalties are always ignored in that case. So nothing wrong there.

Might not have happened if Wales had a couple of guys in the bin though eh...

Your memory fails you. In the first one the scrum was stationary when he stood up, the ball was still in the scrum and remained there for a number of seconds after. In the second one the scrum was going sideways, and again the ball was still in. I'm sure Welsh front row were ropeable that they'd popped him up but it wasn't paid - unless the scrum is over it should be a pen

But that's not really the point, I'm just saying that this Rassie-esque nonsense of claiming one side was buggered by the ref and the other got all the calls going their way is meh and bad for rugby.

@GibbonRib said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@Bones said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@GibbonRib iirc, he popped when the scrum was going forward, regardless the ball was coming out of the scrum and penalties are always ignored in that case. So nothing wrong there.

Might not have happened if Wales had a couple of guys in the bin though eh...

Your memory fails you. In the first one the scrum was stationary when he stood up, the ball was still in the scrum and remained there for a number of seconds after. In the second one the scrum was going sideways, and again the ball was still in. I'm sure Welsh front row were ropeable that they'd popped him up but it wasn't paid - unless the scrum is over it should be a pen

But that's not really the point, I'm just saying that this Rassie-esque nonsense of claiming one side was buggered by the ref and the other got all the calls going their way is meh and bad for rugby.

The issue for me with Carley’s performance was not so much that he missed so much, because, as you say, that affected both sides. Supporters of both Wales and Fiji can point to various blunders by Carley and say “what if” or “yeah but”. Refs and TMOs miss stuff all the time. However what was undoubtedly an effect on the outcome and not subject to “being missed” was his warnings to Wales which were then not backed up by actions. That is not missing stuff, that is bottling the decision.

Not Wales’ fault and in truth they played the ref very well, but it was pretty crap from Carley.

@Catogrande yeah, I can't argue with that

@Catogrande Do you not think that was because Carley is more familiar with the Welsh players? Unconscious bias perhaps?

That, IMO, is generally the issue with Tier 2 teams and refs from Tier 1 refs. Unless the players from the Tier 2 nations play for big teams in Europe and have exposure to the refs, they just don't have the same rapport. I wonder if the Fijians would have got more from a French ref given they have more exposure to those refs in the Top14?

@Catogrande said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

Yeah, he’s a class act. English you know.

Born in Wales. To English parents. So they're a class act.

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@Catogrande Do you not think that was because Carley is more familiar with the Welsh players? Unconscious bias perhaps?

That, IMO, is generally the issue with Tier 2 teams and refs from Tier 1 refs. Unless the players from the Tier 2 nations play for big teams in Europe and have exposure to the refs, they just don't have the same rapport. I wonder if the Fijians would have got more from a French ref given they have more exposure to those refs in the Top14?

It may well be a bit of unconscious bias, I certainly wouldn't go down the route of thinking it was a conscious bias at all. In memory though I seem to recall many times where Tier 2 sides have got the arse in such ways, almost as if the refs are a bit scared of clamping down on the Tier 1 guys for whatever reason. I'm not just talking Carley here.

@Catogrande I don't think it is specifically Carley. He isn't the first, and he won't be the last.

Who can forget Paddy O'Brien in '99 singlehandedly shafting the Fijians against France. Carley's performance isn't even in the same galaxy as that one.

@Bones said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

They still had their fate in their hands - despite any issue they may have with the officiating - and couldn't execute.

I find this line of thinking a bit insincere. It would've been a helluva lot easier to execute it they weren't getting shafted.

I haven’t seen this game, but I agree with this general sentiment.

I always find it a bit trite when folk say that despite you getting shafted repeatedly, you still had a chance to win but you didn’t take it.

Like it’s that simple. Maybe you were exhausted from putting everything into it despite the 16 blokes against you. Maybe you didn’t execute in that moment because you knew you weren’t going to get a call so you were trying something different/desperate. Maybe you should have actually been 10 points up already with the pressure on the opposition to attack and recover points?

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@Catogrande I don't think it is specifically Carley. He isn't the first, and he won't be the last.

Who can forget Paddy O'Brien in '99 singlehandedly shafting the Fijians against France. Carley's performance isn't even in the same galaxy as that one.

I will admit - I had forgotten this

@voodoo

We've been good for one very poor/controversial refereeing performance/decision in most world cups.

Derek Bevan in 1995 (SA vs France)

Paddy O'Brien in 1999 (France vs Fiji)

Andre Watson in 2003 (Eng vs Oz)

Wayne Barnes in 2007 (NZ vs France)

Bryce Lawrence in 2011 (Oz vs SA)

Craig Joubert in 2015 (Oz vs Scotland)

Angus Gardner in 2019 (Ireland vs Japan)

@voodoo said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@Bones said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

They still had their fate in their hands - despite any issue they may have with the officiating - and couldn't execute.

I find this line of thinking a bit insincere. It would've been a helluva lot easier to execute it they weren't getting shafted.

I always find it a bit trite when folk say that despite you getting shafted repeatedly, you still had a chance to win but you didn’t take it.

If only one side (in this case Fiji) were getting shafted, then absolutely

But when calls go against both sides throughout the match then it's a fair observation on events IMHO

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@voodoo said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@Bones said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@NTA said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

They still had their fate in their hands - despite any issue they may have with the officiating - and couldn't execute.

I find this line of thinking a bit insincere. It would've been a helluva lot easier to execute it they weren't getting shafted.

I always find it a bit trite when folk say that despite you getting shafted repeatedly, you still had a chance to win but you didn’t take it.

If only one side (in this case Fiji) were getting shafted, then absolutely

But when calls go against both sides throughout the match then it's a fair observation on events IMHO

As I said Mike, I didn’t watch this one, just a general comment - not meant to be specifically relevant to what seems to be an avalanche of outrage against the ref being biased against the beautiful Fijians who were shafted by the filthy Welsh coal miners

Really entertaining game of footy.
I'm in the sheer incompetence camp re the ref. Fiji got the worst of it no doubt, but there's no way to know that it was bias when he is that fucking hopeless, so why assume the worst?
Cold comfort to the Fijians, but he should never ref at that level again, just horrible.

Worst refereeing performance at a RWC since 2007. Carley should be sent home after the group stage.

@MiketheSnow shoulder charge, yes.

Direct contact to the head? Difficult to judge. No blood as a result (I saw this used as mitigation for the Kriel incident, so I'm just being consistent) so can't have been direct head contact

You won Mike, move on. Nobody loves you, everybody hates you. You're not Fiji and never will be. Make peace with it

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow shoulder charge, yes.

Direct contact to the head? Difficult to judge. No blood as a result (I saw this used as mitigation for the Kriel incident, so I'm just being consistent) so can't have been direct head contact

You won Mike, move on. Nobody loves you, everybody hates you. You're not Fiji and never will be. Make peace with it

Just the way we like it

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@MiketheSnow shoulder charge, yes.

Direct contact to the head? Difficult to judge. No blood as a result (I saw this used as mitigation for the Kriel incident, so I'm just being consistent) so can't have been direct head contact

You won Mike, move on. Nobody loves you, everybody hates you. You're not Fiji and never will be. Make peace with it

Just the way we like it

Welcome brother.

@Smuts I don't know if there's enough chips to go round for your shoulders

@stodders said in RWC Week 1: Wales v Fiji:

@Smuts I don't know if there's enough chips to go round for your shoulders

Too right. Fozzie’s got you blokes hogging them all.

All part of his masterplan. No shortage of hard shouldered fluffybunnies now.

@Smuts as opposed to your soft slap tjip shoulders

Eventually got through the replay. Had about 8 goes at it over the week.

Upshot is I'm not completely pissed off at Carley.

I do think his errors favoured Wales, but don't think it was Paddy O'Brien / Wayne Barnes level fuck ups.

But they were fuck ups, and influenced the result.

Still struggling with his cards or lack thereof, and Quick Draw McGraw on the Fiji one. If it was worth a tallow it was worth a PT.

Couldn't find @MiketheSnow's knock on in that scrum that was penalised.

Upshot is I think Fiji can feel aggrieved.