@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@Canes4life which comes back to my whole point - wholesale changes mean you learn nothing, and gain nothing in terms of useful combinations for when one of the top XV gets injured.

I disagree, I think this is the perfect opportunity to test out a few new faces. Giving starting opportunities to Aumua, Proctor, Ratima and Sititi, with a few more guys off the bench is a no brainer. There is still enough experience out there to manage things if it gets tough but I don't think it will. We should win this with ease and if we don't then it will show that a few guys aren't ready for bigger occasions.

what you disagree with is not that at all, because a few new faces is exactly what i'm advocating for - it's just that your boy proctor isn't one of the few new faces i'd pick right now.

You just said wholesale changes mean you learn nothing and I'm disagreeing with you. You could change out the whole team, it's still test rugby and you will always learn a thing or two about a player on this stage.

Re Proctor, that's totally fine, you're allowed your own opinion. I think it's the perfect opportunity to throw him out there to show what he's got without the pressure of coming up against the tough opponent. I assume he's in the picture anyway after fronting the media.

yep, that's what I think. Individuals tend to not shine without combinations, and if you change everybody then the whole team looks disjointed and a bit shit. we still win, but nobody really advances their case, and the combinations that the 2nd-stringers build with each other are not as useful as a 2nd-stringer building combinations with the top guys - because if they get the call up through performance or injury, that's who they'll be playing with. The Dunedin test pre-WC is a perfect example.
Based on the media I assume they'll probably pick Proctor, and I hope he kills it. I also hope they don't pick all of the new guys at the same time - if he's outside hotham, beauden, ALB, with narawa on the wing then it'll be a pointless selection.

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

wholesale changes mean you learn nothing

You learn a lot about potential backup due to injuries

Ioane, who started his career at wing, was potentially one of the culprits. The former scrum-half felt “there were at least three, possibly four, times in that Test match where Rieko had an opportunity to distribute and didn’t”, and that it could cost him his spot in Robertson’s side.

“I’m sure the All Blacks will look at that, they will probably be pretty pleased they did create those three or four chances for him to distribute, which meant they’ve done enough to bring those defenders in,” he told The Platform.

We’ve got a full squad bar Patrick Tuipulotu,” said All Blacks attack coach Leon MacDonald.

Tuipulotu’s hallmark is his workrate and intensity and it appears that has worn on his body, with the All Blacks opting to give their 45-test lock a rest after playing the England series under a slight injury cloud.

“Patty’s was a decision around his fitness in terms of his body, his return into the [Super Rugby Pacific] final with a knee [injury], he rolled his ankle during that game and then two massive efforts against a really physical England pack. We just feel we need to look after him a little bit,” MacDonald said.

@Tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

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We’ve got a full squad bar Patrick Tuipulotu,” said All Blacks attack coach Leon MacDonald.

Tuipulotu’s hallmark is his workrate and intensity and it appears that has worn on his body, with the All Blacks opting to give their 45-test lock a rest after playing the England series under a slight injury cloud.

“Patty’s was a decision around his fitness in terms of his body, his return into the [Super Rugby Pacific] final with a knee [injury], he rolled his ankle during that game and then two massive efforts against a really physical England pack. We just feel we need to look after him a little bit,” MacDonald said.

good he needs a rest. But thank you Patty.

@Winger you know what that article from Marshall needs? fucking videos. Show us the 3 or 4, show us what could have happened with a different play.

@mariner4life i'd be keen to see what he thinks he has seen too as his game analysis is usually more on point than his comms.

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@Winger you know what that article from Marshall needs? fucking videos. Show us the 3 or 4, show us what could have happened with a different play.

The reason I posted it is I thought the same during the game

But I haven't got time now to go and look at the game again. But IMO Reiko is too good to leave out but he's not a natural centre. And never well be. Unlike Savea or Tana who were fine at 2nd 5 or centre as they both like passing and are / were good passers and decision makers. Reiko prefers running with the ball not passing it. Hes a wing and should be moved back there. With Clarke

@Winger

Those days are gone, he's what, 27?

His future as an AB is at 13, 23, or as a squaddie.

If you want Proctor, make that argument.

You look at Telea (4 months older) who is hitting the golden age of not being young and fast enough for an AB wing spot.

Also, both Rieko and Clarke were/are best at 11, so your idea puts one of them on the wrong side anyway.

There were definitely three opportunities that I noticed where Ioane could have passed on Saturday night and there were a few in the test prior. This, coupled with the fact he hasn't had the most dominant season for the Blues means things aren't coming naturally to him at the moment.

Don't get me wrong though, Ioane has made huge strides at 13 over the last couple of years and he will get more opportunity there but I'd like us to give Proctor a go because he's been the form centre in NZ all year, showing the sort of form and skill set that these AB selectors are clearly after.

Who knows, Ioane took Julian's spot when no one saw it coming, Proctor might just do the same to him if he can take his opportunities with both hands. That's the sort of competition we want though, it will only push Ioane to be better and more accurate in his play knowing he has someone right on his heels.

@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Those days are gone, he's what, 27?

He still looks fast enough

I just want to move on from him at center. But keep him in the side if possible

@Canes4life there were two or three times in the two tests where had Rieko been at 11, he’d have run it in, and most likely ended up under the sticks.

@Winger said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

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Ioane, who started his career at wing, was potentially one of the culprits. The former scrum-half felt “there were at least three, possibly four, times in that Test match where Rieko had an opportunity to distribute and didn’t”, and that it could cost him his spot in Robertson’s side.

“I’m sure the All Blacks will look at that, they will probably be pretty pleased they did create those three or four chances for him to distribute, which meant they’ve done enough to bring those defenders in,” he told The Platform.

Marshall isn't a big fan of either Ioane .. potentially biased..

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Maybe we should also compliment the English forwards?

Yes, everytime De Groot and Lomax were trying to drive, they had to face two or three English tacklers. So it was hard for them to win many meters in those conditions. Moreover, they were standing still when Christie threw them the pill. Did Ofa T and Newell won more meters from their carries ?

@cgrant said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Maybe we should also compliment the English forwards?

Yes, everytime De Groot and Lomax were trying to drive, they had to face two or three English tacklers. So it was hard for them to win many meters in those conditions. Moreover, they were standing still when Christie threw them the pill. Did Ofa T and Newell won more meters from their carries ?

Will be interesting to see if the forwards get more go forward with Ratima or Roigard passing them the ball

If you want run metres from the front row, you need to select differently. Aumua for a start, then Williams. I assume Tosi goes okay too?

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@cgrant said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Maybe we should also compliment the English forwards?

Yes, everytime De Groot and Lomax were trying to drive, they had to face two or three English tacklers. So it was hard for them to win many meters in those conditions. Moreover, they were standing still when Christie threw them the pill. Did Ofa T and Newell won more meters from their carries ?

Will be interesting to see if the forwards get more go forward with Ratima or Roigard passing them the ball

I would think even if it's Perenara, at least there's a threat from the halfback too, so the defence has to hesitate, which isn't the case with Christie.

@Bovidae said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

I did hear that the team will still be named on Thu. They wouldn't want to break with tradition!

Phew.

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Darry in for Patrick in the squad to rest Patricks body. Full squad travelled

So - why not name him in the squad? Weird only taking 3 locks

Finau covers lock.

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

yep, that's what I think. Individuals tend to not shine without combinations, and if you change everybody then the whole team looks disjointed and a bit shit. we still win, but nobody really advances their case, and the combinations that the 2nd-stringers build with each other are not as useful as a 2nd-stringer building combinations with the top guys - because if they get the call up through performance or injury, that's who they'll be playing with. The Dunedin test pre-WC is a perfect example.
Based on the media I assume they'll probably pick Proctor, and I hope he kills it. I also hope they don't pick all of the new guys at the same time - if he's outside hotham, beauden, ALB, with narawa on the wing then it'll be a pointless selection.

If we want to assess Proctor versus Rieko we need to see him outside DMac and Jordie, although the oppo factor is still very significant. Otherwise multiple variables seriously cloud the comparison.

One could argue the same with loose forwards: change one to see how the balance is affected.

Yes but if Jordie goes down are we not in bigger trouble?
Seriously our entire backline activity changes completely if hes off.
ALB would take his place but he is a very different 12 and hes been playing at 13 when he comes on has he not?

@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@Winger said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

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Ioane, who started his career at wing, was potentially one of the culprits. The former scrum-half felt “there were at least three, possibly four, times in that Test match where Rieko had an opportunity to distribute and didn’t”, and that it could cost him his spot in Robertson’s side.

“I’m sure the All Blacks will look at that, they will probably be pretty pleased they did create those three or four chances for him to distribute, which meant they’ve done enough to bring those defenders in,” he told The Platform.

Marshall isn't a big fan of either Ioane .. potentially biased..

Marshall has given Akira a fighting chance.

@Lancaster-Park said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Yes but if Jordie goes down are we not in bigger trouble?
Seriously our entire backline activity changes completely if hes off.
ALB would take his place but he is a very different 12 and hes been playing at 13 when he comes on has he not?

Or put Proctor to 12?

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

If you want run metres from the front row, you need to select differently. Aumua for a start, then Williams. I assume Tosi goes okay too?

Aumua, Tosi, Xavier Numia - would be nice to see how he would go.

Sam Darry is 24 on Thursday.

@pakman said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

If we want to assess Proctor versus Rieko we need to see him outside DMac and Jordie, although the oppo factor is still very significant. Otherwise multiple variables seriously cloud the comparison.

One could argue the same with loose forwards: change one to see how the balance is affected.

exactly, and it's not just assessment: if we want proctor to slot in seamlessly if rieko gets injured, then that is the combination we should be working on.

@Lancaster-Park said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Yes but if Jordie goes down are we not in bigger trouble?
Seriously our entire backline activity changes completely if hes off.
ALB would take his place but he is a very different 12 and hes been playing at 13 when he comes on has he not?

Yep, which is a serious selection issue.
If we aren't intending to change the game plan if JB gets injured, then we ought to have a similar style 12 in the squad... I assume the argument would have been 'but there isn't one' - with Lam a novice at 12, Tupaea not convincing on his return yet, Rona, Poihipi etc not at that level yet, and McLeod having stunk super up.

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

If you want run metres from the front row, you need to select differently. Aumua for a start, then Williams. I assume Tosi goes okay too?

While everyone would prefer that our All Blacks were the bestest at every element of the game, I'm happy to take weapons at their core roles and for front row, that's scrummaging (which is currently a massive weapon/ game losing liability depending on capability) over making line breaks while the opposition are fresh, willing and capable.

I think the payoff for the slightly more athletic guys comes around the 50th minute mark as per the adage you have to earn the right...

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

If you want run metres from the front row, you need to select differently. Aumua for a start, then Williams. I assume Tosi goes okay too?

While everyone would prefer that out All Blacks were the bestest at every element f the game, I'm happy to take weapons at their core roles and for front row, that's scrummaging (which is currently a massive weapon/ game losing liability depending on capability) over making line breaks while thee opposition are fresh, willing and capable.

I think the payoff for the slightly more athletic guys comes around the 50th minute mark as per the adage you have to earn the right...

Yeah, I wouldn't want to sacrifice the scrum. The pack as a whole does need ball runners though - it's not really a strength right now.
We only have 3 locks (and 4 wingers, grumble grumble), and our guys are okay - there are not many who can be brutal runners and tall enough to be elite lineout forwards.
Savea is decent, kind of... but it's all leg drive and 2nd effort. More often than not you don't really gain quick ruck ball with the defence on the back foot from his runs, because he takes a long time to make a couple of extra metres and a long time to go to ground. The defensive line has plenty of time to align - so while it's amazing strength and effort, it doesn't actually achieve much.
Paps is a tackler, not a runner.
Finau is a hard straight runner, which is what we're lacking - but he ain't showing it yet. I reckon Sititi looks like the guy in the squad as far as loosies hitting it up goes, so hopefully he gets a run.
We are missing Samisoni. He is powerful enough to make yards and get momentum against a set defence. I'd love to see him start and Aumua come on late. But then if we keep Taylor and drop Aumua we don't gain that much anyway.

Ball running eh? Dry powder I say.

@cgrant said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Maybe we should also compliment the English forwards?

...... Moreover, they were standing still when Christie threw them the pill. Did Ofa T and Newell won more meters from their carries ?

im not the only one that noticed this (probably talked about in the match thread)....very flat footed and often made it worse after they got the ball by doing a little two step on the before just leaning into the tackle

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

If you want run metres from the front row, you need to select differently. Aumua for a start, then Williams. I assume Tosi goes okay too?

While everyone would prefer that out All Blacks were the bestest at every element f the game, I'm happy to take weapons at their core roles and for front row, that's scrummaging (which is currently a massive weapon/ game losing liability depending on capability) over making line breaks while thee opposition are fresh, willing and capable.

I think the payoff for the slightly more athletic guys comes around the 50th minute mark as per the adage you have to earn the right...

Yeah, I wouldn't want to sacrifice the scrum. The pack as a whole does need ball runners though - it's not really a strength right now.
We only have 3 locks (and 4 wingers, grumble grumble), and our guys are okay - there are not many who can be brutal runners and tall enough to be elite lineout forwards.
Savea is decent, kind of... but it's all leg drive and 2nd effort. More often than not you don't really gain quick ruck ball with the defence on the back foot from his runs, because he takes a long time to make a couple of extra metres and a long time to go to ground. The defensive line has plenty of time to align - so while it's amazing strength and effort, it doesn't actually achieve much.
Paps is a tackler, not a runner.
Finau is a hard straight runner, which is what we're lacking - but he ain't showing it yet. I reckon Sititi looks like the guy in the squad as far as loosies hitting it up goes, so hopefully he gets a run.
We are missing Samisoni. He is powerful enough to make yards and get momentum against a set defence. I'd love to see him start and Aumua come on late. But then if we keep Taylor and drop Aumua we don't gain that much anyway.

I'm of the strongly held opinion that quick ruck ball would help alleviate these problems more than selectorial changes to the forwards. Even if the first couple don't make metres, good cleans and rapid movement of the ball overwhelms the defence. I.e. the antichristie selection.

@antipodean antichristie is pretty good bro.

totally agree that if the ball is quick and the defence is on the back foot then most anyone can make metres. I do think it helps a lot to have a couple of options to get you that initial bit of momentum though.

Your forwards also need to be getting the ball at pace, not being stationary and then trying to generate some forward momentum.

@Bovidae said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Your forwards also need to be getting the ball at pace, not being stationary and then trying to generate some forward momentum.

Yes, but as a runner you need confidence that when you can see the ball is available to start running safe in the knowledge the ball will quickly and accurately come to where you'll be.

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

We are missing Samisoni. He is powerful enough to make yards and get momentum against a set defence. I'd love to see him start and Aumua come on late. But then if we keep Taylor and drop Aumua we don't gain that much anyway.

Unsure why they don't bring on Aumua earlier. Especially when Taylor is having a poorish game

Team needs better ball carriers. And passers.

Team gets named at 11am on Thursday.

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Team gets named at 11am on Thursday.

NZT? Or yank time?

@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Team gets named at 11am on Thursday.

NZT? Or yank time?

NZ time