@Dodge

Well, we’re going to have to front up, up front much better than we have done for the last 100 minutes of rugby. What to do in regard to the front row? I like Theo Dan’s play in the loose but it is hard to gauge his scrummaging. Maybe LCD to stay on the bench. I really think we need to move on from Dan Cole but where to go? Opoku-Fordjur maybe? I’m not convinced on Isiekwe and would ditch him for Ted Hill on the bench with Ben Curry to start at 7. That leaves Dombrandt on the bench but will Borthwick use him to good effect? Clue: No, he won’t.

Start Randall with JvP on the bench, leave Smith on if he is playing as well as he was in the last two games. Sleigthome in for Feyi-Waboso but what to do about the centres? Last week’s mix and match didn’t work defensively but we are short of options..

Can England get Farrell back? Jamie George may look like Churchill, but his leadership skills are not ....inspiring.

@NTA said in England vs Springboks:

Can both of them lose?

No

England are rebuilding well. I expect them to start putting it together soon, and this game could be it. South Africa's aging heros are starting to look worn out and predictable. England to take it in a close one

@W32 said in England vs Springboks:

England are rebuilding well. I expect them to start putting it together soon, and this game could be it. South Africa's aging heros are starting to look worn out and predictable. England to take it in a close one

Awful attempt.

@W32
Nick still hurts after losing to our A and B team at home.

@OomPB said in England vs Springboks:

@W32
Nick still hurts after losing to our A and B team at home.

Not as painful as listening to Bok fans on Twitter.

I expected the Wallabies to lose.

I didn't expect quite the level of man-child idiocy I got out of some corners of social media, with dark green icons as their avatars. Most Bok fans are just happy to win, and remember it wasn't always this good.

Some are miserable fluffybunnies with a serious victim complex.

The worst of Bok fans today are easily the most ungracious winners since the angry edge crowd of millennial Kiwi fans in the McCaw era, who are in a dead heat with part time England fans under Eddie for second.

Pushing hard behind them all: bandwagon Aussies around the turn of the century.

The game between these two sides at the world cup was the final straw in putting me off rugby for six months. Fuck it was dire.
Both sides have had some entertaining games this year, so hopefully better this time around.

@reprobate counterpoint: that semi was the best game of the World Cup.

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

The game between these two sides at the world cup was the final straw in putting me off rugby for six months. Fuck it was dire.
Both sides have had some entertaining games this year, so hopefully better this time around.

I would have thought that this was caused by the AB's going down to the bokke in a final for the second time, and the realisation that the bokke 4 world cups in 8 attempts make the AB's 3 cups in 10 attempts look ....pitiful....

@W32 said in England vs Springboks:

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

The game between these two sides at the world cup was the final straw in putting me off rugby for six months. Fuck it was dire.
Both sides have had some entertaining games this year, so hopefully better this time around.

I would have thought that is was caused by the AB's going down to the bokke in a final for the second time, and the realisation that the bokke 4 world cups in 8 attempts make the AB's 3 cups in 10 attempts look ....pitiful....

Nah, I'm fine with all that. As you point out we've lost plenty of world cups before, none of which put me off watching the game.
Constant high kicks, neither side actually wanting the ball, penalty after penalty will do it though. That plus the shit card lottery in different games and the terrible reffing in a few games, I had just had enough.

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

@W32 said in England vs Springboks:

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

The game between these two sides at the world cup was the final straw in putting me off rugby for six months. Fuck it was dire.
Both sides have had some entertaining games this year, so hopefully better this time around.

I would have thought that is was caused by the AB's going down to the bokke in a final for the second time, and the realisation that the bokke 4 world cups in 8 attempts make the AB's 3 cups in 10 attempts look ....pitiful....

Nah, I'm fine with all that. As you point out we've lost plenty of world cups before, none of which put me off watching the game.
Constant high kicks, neither side actually wanting the ball, penalty after penalty will do it though. That plus the shit card lottery in different games and the terrible reffing in a few games, I had just had enough.

England played bloody well in that game. The bokke winning was pretty dramatic. I enjoyed it.

@W32 said in England vs Springboks:

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

@W32 said in England vs Springboks:

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

The game between these two sides at the world cup was the final straw in putting me off rugby for six months. Fuck it was dire.
Both sides have had some entertaining games this year, so hopefully better this time around.

I would have thought that is was caused by the AB's going down to the bokke in a final for the second time, and the realisation that the bokke 4 world cups in 8 attempts make the AB's 3 cups in 10 attempts look ....pitiful....

Nah, I'm fine with all that. As you point out we've lost plenty of world cups before, none of which put me off watching the game.
Constant high kicks, neither side actually wanting the ball, penalty after penalty will do it though. That plus the shit card lottery in different games and the terrible reffing in a few games, I had just had enough.

England played bloody well in that game. The bokke winning was pretty dramatic. I enjoyed it.

It was dramatic, but that was all it had going for it. The poms were probably happy to get unexpectedly close, you guys obviously happy to win - but as a neutral the rugby was fucking dire.

@NTA all countries have them Boet. You don't want me to start on the Aussies over in your house. Real rugby supporters respect the opposition and understand winning and losing.

@OomPB said in England vs Springboks:

Real rugby supporters respect the opposition and understand winning and losing

so there are no real rugby supporters from South Africa?

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

@W32 said in England vs Springboks:

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

@W32 said in England vs Springboks:

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

The game between these two sides at the world cup was the final straw in putting me off rugby for six months. Fuck it was dire.
Both sides have had some entertaining games this year, so hopefully better this time around.

I would have thought that is was caused by the AB's going down to the bokke in a final for the second time, and the realisation that the bokke 4 world cups in 8 attempts make the AB's 3 cups in 10 attempts look ....pitiful....

Nah, I'm fine with all that. As you point out we've lost plenty of world cups before, none of which put me off watching the game.
Constant high kicks, neither side actually wanting the ball, penalty after penalty will do it though. That plus the shit card lottery in different games and the terrible reffing in a few games, I had just had enough.

England played bloody well in that game. The bokke winning was pretty dramatic. I enjoyed it.

It was dramatic, but that was all it had going for it. The poms were probably happy to get unexpectedly close, you guys obviously happy to win - but as a neutral the rugby was fucking dire.

I was at both semis

England v SA was immeasurably better IMHO

@NTA said in England vs Springboks:

@OomPB said in England vs Springboks:

@W32
Nick still hurts after losing to our A and B team at home.

Not as painful as listening to Bok fans on Twitter.

I expected the Wallabies to lose.

I didn't expect quite the level of man-child idiocy I got out of some corners of social media, with dark green icons as their avatars. Most Bok fans are just happy to win, and remember it wasn't always this good.

Some are miserable fluffybunnies with a serious victim complex.

The worst of Bok fans today are easily the most ungracious winners since the angry edge crowd of millennial Kiwi fans in the McCaw era, who are in a dead heat with part time England fans under Eddie for second.

Pushing hard behind them all: bandwagon Aussies around the turn of the century.

Hang on, have you managed to insult 4 countries of fans without once mentioning Ireland?!

@nostrildamus said in England vs Springboks:

@NTA said in England vs Springboks:

@OomPB said in England vs Springboks:

@W32
Nick still hurts after losing to our A and B team at home.

Not as painful as listening to Bok fans on Twitter.

I expected the Wallabies to lose.

I didn't expect quite the level of man-child idiocy I got out of some corners of social media, with dark green icons as their avatars. Most Bok fans are just happy to win, and remember it wasn't always this good.

Some are miserable fluffybunnies with a serious victim complex.

The worst of Bok fans today are easily the most ungracious winners since the angry edge crowd of millennial Kiwi fans in the McCaw era, who are in a dead heat with part time England fans under Eddie for second.

Pushing hard behind them all: bandwagon Aussies around the turn of the century.

Hang on, have you managed to insult 4 countries of fans without once mentioning Ireland?!

Do I need to?

@MiketheSnow said in England vs Springboks:

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

@W32 said in England vs Springboks:

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

@W32 said in England vs Springboks:

@reprobate said in England vs Springboks:

The game between these two sides at the world cup was the final straw in putting me off rugby for six months. Fuck it was dire.
Both sides have had some entertaining games this year, so hopefully better this time around.

I would have thought that is was caused by the AB's going down to the bokke in a final for the second time, and the realisation that the bokke 4 world cups in 8 attempts make the AB's 3 cups in 10 attempts look ....pitiful....

Nah, I'm fine with all that. As you point out we've lost plenty of world cups before, none of which put me off watching the game.
Constant high kicks, neither side actually wanting the ball, penalty after penalty will do it though. That plus the shit card lottery in different games and the terrible reffing in a few games, I had just had enough.

England played bloody well in that game. The bokke winning was pretty dramatic. I enjoyed it.

It was dramatic, but that was all it had going for it. The poms were probably happy to get unexpectedly close, you guys obviously happy to win - but as a neutral the rugby was fucking dire.

I was at both semis

England v SA was immeasurably better IMHO

Of course, NZ vs Argentina was a one way traffic. But in terms of rugby, England vs SA was dire and boring, with the notable exception of the last scrum.

@Dodge said in England vs Springboks:

Well this weekend is going to be painful.

Given recent results, yes, England will be considered underdogs.
But in reality, I don't think they are massively so.
England seem just a beat away from putting it all together - for the full 80 minutes.
In which case, the Boks will need to be at their best in order to win.

Bok team suppose to be release today. Springboks will need to play open rugby on saturday.

@OomPB said in England vs Springboks:

Bok team suppose to be release today. Springboks will need to play open rugby on saturday.

They will need to do the inverse.

SA should take this easily. Although England will be smarting after last week and should be that little bit more focused. The Twickenham factor won't be so strong as half of SA lives within a mile of the stadium.

England have really been dented lately. I thought their 2 games in NZ were more inventive and energetic than their recent ones but now I am wavering on my assumption they are well-coached. Maybe so but the imagination factor seems to be wavering. Prove me wrong Mr Borthwick!

@mariner4life said in England vs Springboks:

@OomPB said in England vs Springboks:

Real rugby supporters respect the opposition and understand winning and losing

so there are no real rugby supporters from South Africa?

Some South African fans are a little like some New Zealand fans. They can’t believe that their side could lose through not playing well enough. The other side win because of crap reffing, or cheating..

@MajorRage said in England vs Springboks:

@OomPB said in England vs Springboks:

Bok team suppose to be release today. Springboks will need to play open rugby on saturday.

They will need to do the inverse.

SA should take this easily.

If they take your advice then I agree the Boks should win easily.

Really I think that was the lesson of the semi. It’s also what made that game so compelling. Boks arrived looking to run at England. Libbok and Willemse were primed to attack from deep. And it really didn’t work especially with Curry being a total savage at the breakdown. England controlled field position, put boks under pressure and harvested points. Rassie reacted fairly quickly but still 15 minutes too late and then it was a race against the clock for the boks to reel in the English.

Boks would’ve lost it too, if someone hadn’t worked out that Curry needed to be dealt with. Whoever did that was the man of the match alongside Ox and Pollard.

Which is what I’m really looking for this weekend: the boks sorting out their offensive breakdown work. It’s a serious issue with a fair few aspects to it.

Biggest easy fix is for our forwards to carry harder and worry less about offloads initially. And RG needs to be banned from throwing a pass until he’s made 20 post contact meters.

I appreciate some of the positive 'it could come together' sentiment above about England but i'm not sure what its based on at the moment, at the end of the 6N we looked like we were gradually beginning to find a style in attack and defence, but the defence, in the absence of Jones now looks shambolic, half of them drifting, half of them blitzing, scramble is almost non existent as a result.

In attack, we look confused most of the time, Smith is playing well but we're rarely getting quick enough ball to play from and we look disjointed outside Smith.

Our forwards aren't good enough, particularly the front row, which means we're struggling at set piece to secure our own ball or attack the oppositions.

On top of the crap being served up on the pitch, our coaching set up is in total disarray and i'd love to know why, it looked like Borthwick was building a strong team but the best coaches have left very quickly which speaks to the environment and the quality of the head coach IMO. I was at the game last week, and am going again on Saturday, i repeat my earlier assertion, its going to be painful.

Which is hilarious to say when you consider you could very easily be 2-0.

we could very easily have won the last 6 games, but we've lost 5 of them.

Look like I will get my wish. AE, Pollard, Wiese and Wilco Louw will play

@Dodge said in England vs Springboks:

we could very easily have won the last 6 games, but we've lost 5 of them.

Think positive. At least you don't have to put up with an Eddie Jones post-defeat presser.

And you're not a Welsh supporter.

Good point. After he's trashed Japanese confidence perhaps the Welsh will invite him to replace Gatland.

@nostrildamus said in England vs Springboks:

Good point. After he's trashed Japanese confidence perhaps the Welsh will invite him to replace Gatland.

We’re dumb, but we’re not that dumb

@OomPB said in England vs Springboks:

View embedded content

That really is a high quality Bok squad. I've been thinking all week that England do genuinely have a chance (although certainly not favourites). Seeing that squad, I'm not so sure now.

I know it's part of their strategy, but I'll always think it's criminal that Malcolm Marx doesn't start. He's not at this peak, but he's still a phenomenal player, significantly better than Mbonambi in my view.

No bomb squad this time ...

@MajorRage

It beats me how Am does not start either.

Borethwick announces the England squad with changes.

England: Steward; Freeman, Lawrence, Slade, Sleightholme; M Smith, Van Poortvliet; Genge, George (capt), Stuart, Itoje, Martin, Cunningham-South, Underhill, Earl.
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Baxter, Cole, Isiekwe, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford, Roebuck.

4 changes to the starting XV, 2 of which were forced and the two that weren't go to his old Leicester protégés. Steward presumably in for his aerial skills but this Bok team have more strings to their bow than a simple kick and chase. JvP at 9 will guarantee us slow service and the potential for an intercept. Pretty much the same bench that cost us both the last games.

Sigh.

blurgh. Seen a lot of speculation in the last couple of weeks about a return to full backs who dominate in the air because of the inability to run blocking lines, which obviously just encourages more kicking and more competition in the air. Can't believe we've dropped Furbank, he was basically the first name on my team sheet at the beginning of the AIs.

that team is pretty bang average and the bench is worse than that.

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

Borethwick
Sigh.

I see what you did there

Chapeau

last week i was convinced Borthwick should go, now i'm fucking certain of it, can't build and keep a coaching team, can't back a style of play, can't select a bench with any impact. The coaching set up is a genuine shambles. worst case scenario is scraping a dull 1 point win and pretending its progress