@voodoo said in All Blacks v France 2:

Seems odd that a visiting team would target the dead rubber Game 3 of a series as “the big one” that they want to win, but who the hell understands the French eh?

The logic seems to be that they'll target the third game because that's the game where the ABs were always expected to rotate their squad.

It's less odd when you start out from the premise that the French would be more than happy with a 2-1 series result. Then it makes (sort of) sense that they'd target the Test where the ABs are at their least experienced.

Not particularly in the spirit of the series but it's clear that both sides have very different approaches to these Tests.

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France 2:

@voodoo said in All Blacks v France 2:

Seems odd that a visiting team would target the dead rubber Game 3 of a series as “the big one” that they want to win, but who the hell understands the French eh?

The logic seems to be that they'll target the third game because that's the game where the ABs were always expected to rotate their squad.

It's less odd when you start out from the premise that the French would be more than happy with a 2-1 series result. Then it makes (sort of) sense that they'd target the Test where the ABs are at their least experienced.

Not particularly in the spirit of the series but it's clear that both sides have very different approaches to these Tests.

Yup, if that's the case, then clearly France see winning a test in NZ as an achievement event in itself.

Don't think Razor will do that much rotation though at the same time.

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France 2:

@voodoo said in All Blacks v France 2:

Seems odd that a visiting team would target the dead rubber Game 3 of a series as “the big one” that they want to win, but who the hell understands the French eh?

The logic seems to be that they'll target the third game because that's the game where the ABs were always expected to rotate their squad.

It's less odd when you start out from the premise that the French would be more than happy with a 2-1 series result. Then it makes (sort of) sense that they'd target the Test where the ABs are at their least experienced.

Not particularly in the spirit of the series but it's clear that both sides have very different approaches to these Tests.

Well it's a good theory, but what are they going to do? Rotate in half the squad that narrowly lost to an undercooked AB's to play alongside the other half that got spanked?

@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:

Well it's a good theory, but what are they going to do? Rotate in half the squad that narrowly lost to an undercooked AB's to play alongside the other half that got spanked?

I guess...? Basically starting the more experienced squad members (Fickou, Villière, Bamba, Bourgarit) with some of the Top 14 finalists (Barassi, Bochaton) as the strongest combination.

That being said, it could just well be some French journalists who are trying to make sense of the whole thing and ending up overthinking it. Who knows, Galthié could end up playing an even less experienced team in Hamilton.

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France 2:

@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:

Well it's a good theory, but what are they going to do? Rotate in half the squad that narrowly lost to an undercooked AB's to play alongside the other half that got spanked?

I guess...? Basically starting the more experienced squad members (Fickou, Villière, Bamba, Bourgarit) with some of the Top 14 finalists (Barassi, Bochaton) as the strongest combination.

That being said, it could just well be some French journalists who are trying to make sense of the whole thing and ending up overthinking it. Who knows, Galthié could end up playing an even less experienced team in Hamilton.

They're going to get done by an experimental AB side. Rassie can be happy with trying to be a clever fluffybunny against Italy B while we sneak in another RC.

McAlister, Ah Kuoi, Papali'i, Hotham, ALB and Love are the ones yet to play who are around the squad.

If those guys are the bench they will do no worse than the bench last night.

If Jacobson is fit he will probably start at 6 with Vaa'i injured or getting a chance to rest his shoulder.

@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:

McAlister, Ah Kuoi, Papali'i, Hotham, ALB and Love are the ones yet to play who are around the squad.

If those guys are the bench they will do no worse than the bench last night.

If Jacobson is fit he will probably start at 6 with Vaa'i injured or getting a chance to rest his shoulder.

If Vaa'i is fit then you would think he'd retain the 6 jersey with Jacobson playing at 8.

Imagine McAlister, Hotham and Love will all get spots on the bench. Don't think Ah Kuoi or Papali'i will feature unless there are injuries and assume ALB will start, if fit.

1 De Groot
2 Taukei'aho
3 Newell
4 Tuipulotu
5 Holland
6 Vaa'i / Jacobson / Finau
7 Savea
8 Jacobson / Lio-Willie
9 Roigard
10 McKenzie
11 Ioane
12 Tupaea
13 Lienert-Brown
14 Narawa
15 Jordan

16 McAlister
17 Norris
18 Tosi
19 Finau / Ah Kuoi
20 Kirifi
21 Hotham
22 Love
23 Tavatavanawai

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France 2:

@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:

McAlister, Ah Kuoi, Papali'i, Hotham, ALB and Love are the ones yet to play who are around the squad.

If those guys are the bench they will do no worse than the bench last night.

If Jacobson is fit he will probably start at 6 with Vaa'i injured or getting a chance to rest his shoulder.

If Vaa'i is fit then you would think he'd retain the 6 jersey with Jacobson playing at 8.

He's had a shoulder injury for two weeks now plus he copped a knee in the head so may have failed his HIA. I don't see any point in risking him against what will still be an inexperienced experimental French side no matter who they put out.

Let Vaa'i get right for the RC

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France 2:

@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:

McAlister, Ah Kuoi, Papali'i, Hotham, ALB and Love are the ones yet to play who are around the squad.

If those guys are the bench they will do no worse than the bench last night.

If Jacobson is fit he will probably start at 6 with Vaa'i injured or getting a chance to rest his shoulder.

If Vaa'i is fit then you would think he'd retain the 6 jersey with Jacobson playing at 8.

Imagine McAlister, Hotham and Love will all get spots on the bench. Don't think Ah Kuoi or Papali'i will feature unless there are injuries and assume ALB will start, if fit.

1 De Groot
2 Taukei'aho
3 Newell
4 Tuipulotu
5 Holland
6 Vaa'i / Jacobson / Finau
7 Savea
8 Jacobson / Lio-Willie
9 Roigard
10 McKenzie
11 Ioane
12 Tupaea
13 Lienert-Brown
14 Narawa
15 Jordan

16 McAlister
17 Norris
18 Tosi
19 Finau / Ah Kuoi
20 Kirifi
21 Hotham
22 Love
23 Tavatavanawai

.

I don’t understand the need to give everyone a run. Especially guys like ALB where we know exactly what he offers, and he’s clearly not the best 12 or the best 13 we have. If the coaches genuinely think Proctor is the future at 13, then give him another run outside Jordie and give QT a run off the bench.

I’d advocate for picking our best 15 again, after adjusting for injuries, and then making minimal changes to the bench if desired.

Razor is basically selecting how he should have last season. Better late than never. Somehow he needs to rotate BB out to take a look at Love. Maybe DMac to start then Love comes on for 30 minutes? Or be really bold and start Love?

Selecting a Roigard - Love combo is not bold as both have played a number of (good) games together this season. A Ratima - DMac combo on the bench should do well too. But I guess Hotham will get his chance.

@voodoo

Robertson's plan was to give everyone a run according to him.

Proctor has very much been a mixed bag.

Kirifi was picked on his ability to win turnovers and his good discipline. He hasn't won a single turnover so far and gave away 3 penalties in 20 minutes yesterday.

@canefan said in All Blacks v France 2:

Razor is basically selecting how he should have last season. Better late than never. Somehow he needs to rotate BB out to take a look at Love. Maybe DMac to start then Love comes on for 30 minutes? Or be really bold and start Love?

I don’t mind what he is doing rewarding form with the likes of Kirifi and proctor , if they aren’t the answer, at least we are finding out

@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:

@voodoo

Robertson's plan was to give everyone a run according to him.

Proctor has very much been a mixed bag.

Kirifi was picked on his ability to win turnovers and his good discipline. He hasn't won a single turnover so far and gave away 3 penalties in 20 minutes yesterday.

Yep, I heard the statement from coach, just saying I hate it.

I’d personally agree on Proctor, but I’d add that the consensus seems to be a decent T2 improvement on a fairly forgettable T1 - so why not give him another go to see if he can build on it? We know what ALB and Rieko offer there, let’s carry on with creating depth.

Kirifi looked so frustrated today arguing with the ref didn’t he?

I’d pick proctor again and start him with tupaea , Jim on the bench , give Jordie a spell .

Dmac inside tupaea , love on the bench .

@voodoo said in All Blacks v France 2:

@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:

@voodoo

Robertson's plan was to give everyone a run according to him.

Proctor has very much been a mixed bag.

Kirifi was picked on his ability to win turnovers and his good discipline. He hasn't won a single turnover so far and gave away 3 penalties in 20 minutes yesterday.

Yep, I heard the statement from coach, just saying I hate it.

I’d personally agree on Proctor, but I’d add that the consensus seems to be a decent T2 improvement on a fairly forgettable T1 - so why not give him another go to see if he can build on it? We know what ALB and Rieko offer there, let’s carry on with creating depth.

Kirifi looked so frustrated today arguing with the ref didn’t he?

I'm pretty neutral on what happens with Proctor at the moment but it would seem that Proctor was a big part of their plan. The backline hasn't been great though and we got out to an early lead yesterday by keeping it tight.

I've always suspected that Kirifi would not go well with refs who are not Kiwis or Aussies. I doubt the coaches will appreciate the ongoing dialogue he was having with the ref

@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France 2:

@canefan said in All Blacks v France 2:

Razor is basically selecting how he should have last season. Better late than never. Somehow he needs to rotate BB out to take a look at Love. Maybe DMac to start then Love comes on for 30 minutes? Or be really bold and start Love?

I don’t mind what he is doing rewarding form with the likes of Kirifi and proctor , if they aren’t the answer, at least we are finding out

Exactly, and I think Proctor got better as the match went on. He does however seem to struggle in the collision area, both on attack and defence. I'd still keep him at centre though for now. I think there's some upside there with him.

Kirifi, yeah, still not seeing how he fits into the equation. Again, not gonna complain if he gets the next test, but when you're only a specialist jackler and you're not winning turnovers, then you start to look at what else he brings. Happy to see him get a few tests to prove his worth, but as I stated earlier, I think his Canes teammate Peter Lakai is a better bet. He offers way more flexibility off the bench. Don't know when he's available again.

Would be good to see Finau play a full 80 to see if he can actually justify the hype and put some hits in.

What I think we need to work on is.closing the game, which means bench personnel.

Maybe a couple of bench players need to start, meaning the 'better' players come on so we can finish stronger.

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks v France III:

What's the go with Peter Lakai? I think that bench spot would be more suited to him when fit.

Lakai got an injury during the Brumbies quarter-final. From Stuff:

Hooker Asafo Aumua (hamstring) and loose forward Peter Lakai (knee) missed out on the 33-man squad named on Monday due to injury, but were on track to be fit in time for the Rugby Championship.
[...]
Aumua hurt his hamstring during training ahead of the Super Rugby playoffs, while Lakai damaged the Medial Collateral Ligament (MCL) in his knee during the Hurricanes’ defeat to the Brumbies in Canberra a fortnight ago.

Source: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360732767/all-blacks-coach-scott-robertson-leaves-door-open-omitted-players

So he should be back for The Rugby Championship. If he's fit and Sititi's still out, I reckon he gets a go at the number 8-jersey. I thought he went very well for the Hurricanes there in the second half of the season.

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France III:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks v France III:

What's the go with Peter Lakai? I think that bench spot would be more suited to him when fit.

Lakai got an injury during the Brumbies quarter-final. From Stuff:

Hooker Asafo Aumua (hamstring) and loose forward Peter Lakai (knee) missed out on the 33-man squad named on Monday due to injury, but were on track to be fit in time for the Rugby Championship.
[...]
Aumua hurt his hamstring during training ahead of the Super Rugby playoffs, while Lakai damaged the Medial Collateral Ligament (MCL) in his knee during the Hurricanes’ defeat to the Brumbies in Canberra a fortnight ago.

Source: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360732767/all-blacks-coach-scott-robertson-leaves-door-open-omitted-players

So he should be back for The Rugby Championship. If he's fit and Sititi's still out, I reckon he gets a go at the number 8-jersey. I thought he went very well for the Hurricanes there in the second half of the season.

Yes he did, and he's just as good playing 7. I think he's the perfect bench option for us when we're at full strength.

I’m not keen on seeing them making a lot of changes. I know Robertson has stated he intends to give everyone a run but that doesn’t necessarily mean making a lot of changes or giving everyone a lot of time on the field. I also don’t think that has to include players currently with the squad as injury cover.

If it were up to me, assuming injured players don’t make a come back and nobody else is out, I’d make very few changes. Perhaps start Ratima and McKenzie then swap them both at half time for Roigard and Love. Swap out the front row at or even before half time. Give Tavatavanawai or Tupaea and some of the other reserves who look like they’ll be in the main 23 thirty minutes.

I don’t see the need for giving third or fourth choice players big minutes. Use the bench to rest players who might need it.

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France III:

If Vaa'i is fit then you would think he'd retain the 6 jersey with Jacobson playing at 8.

Yes. If Jacobson starts it should be at 7 or 8, not 6. I reckon we might see Savea back to no.8 if that happens.

A Tupaea-Proctor midfield would be interesting. I remember watching them play very well together for the Māori against MP.

Robertson changed his tune on giving everyone a game after the close 1st test, but has more leeway now.

@MN5 said in All Blacks v France III:

Would be good to see Finau play a full 80 to see if he can actually justify the hype and put some hits in.

My thinking is - if Vaai is our 6 option into The Rugby Championship this year - he needs time in the saddle - keep running Vaai out at 6 (assuming he's ok from the HIA).

Tupou has been very very good but I wish we could have had a look at Parker, shame about the injury. I get what people are saying about Proctor and Ioane but something is still not right about our backline and maybe it is the coaching. Seems to lose focus and initiative.
Have noticed no one complains about Jordan at 15 these days. And boy has Jordie improved at 12, more elusive and dynamic. And I like QT and big Jim.
Kind of funny that Ioane looked like a centre now playing wing.
Still think Narawa is a good 14/15 style of player but I agree we are missing some speed - maybe at 11.

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v France III:

@MN5 said in All Blacks v France III:

Would be good to see Finau play a full 80 to see if he can actually justify the hype and put some hits in.

My thinking is - if Vaai is our 6 option into The Rugby Championship this year - he needs time in the saddle - keep running Vaai out at 6 (assuming he's ok from the HIA).

I agree but would be interesting to see if Finau can actually do what some on here say he can.

Jerome Kaino/Jerry Collins he most certainly ain't so far.

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France III:

Tupou has been very very good but I wish we could have had a look at Parker, shame about the injury. I get what people are saying about Proctor and Ioane but something is still not right about our backline and maybe it is the coaching. Seems to lose focus and initiative.
Have noticed no one complains about Jordan at 15 these days. And boy has Jordie improved at 12, more elusive and dynamic. And I like QT and big Jim.
Kind of funny that Ioane looked like a centre now playing wing.
Still think Narawa is a good 14/15 style of player but I agree we are missing some speed - maybe at 11.

@Bones must be having internet problems or else he's been banned from here.

@ShaquilleOatmeal

The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.

A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.

@Bovidae said in All Blacks v France III:

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France III:

If Vaa'i is fit then you would think he'd retain the 6 jersey with Jacobson playing at 8.

Yes. If Jacobson starts it should be at 7 or 8, not 6. I reckon we might see Savea back to no.8 if that happens.

A Tupaea-Proctor midfield would be interesting. I remember watching them play very well together for the Māori against MP.

Robertson changed his tune on giving everyone a game after the close 1st test, but has more leeway now.

I just think with tupaea we may have another potential starter 12 if Jordie was to go down , shorter but overall plays similar, let’s find out .

@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:

@ShaquilleOatmeal

The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.

A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.

Which to me makes guys like Kirifi and Lio Willie surplus to requirements against the really big guns.

That move the latter did to set up Roigard was cool though.

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks v France III:

@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France 2:

@canefan said in All Blacks v France 2:

Razor is basically selecting how he should have last season. Better late than never. Somehow he needs to rotate BB out to take a look at Love. Maybe DMac to start then Love comes on for 30 minutes? Or be really bold and start Love?

I don’t mind what he is doing rewarding form with the likes of Kirifi and proctor , if they aren’t the answer, at least we are finding out

Exactly, and I think Proctor got better as the match went on. He does however seem to struggle in the collision area, both on attack and defence. I'd still keep him at centre though for now. I think there's some upside there with him.

Kirifi, yeah, still not seeing how he fits into the equation. Again, not gonna complain if he gets the next test, but when you're only a specialist jackler and you're not winning turnovers, then you start to look at what else he brings. Happy to see him get a few tests to prove his worth, but as I stated earlier, I think his Canes teammate Peter Lakai is a better bet. He offers way more flexibility off the bench. Don't know when he's available again.

I tend to agree, I think Peter Lakai is definitely suited more to test footy, covers more positions as well. I think Kirifi would have missed out to Lakai if he was fit personally.

@MN5 said in All Blacks v France III:

@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:

@ShaquilleOatmeal

The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.

A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.

Which to me makes guys like Kirifi and Lio Willie surplus to requirements against the really big guns.

That move the latter did to set up Roigard was cool though.

Yes Lio Willie has been better than Kirifi. The way injuries come around it seems that Lio Willie can be relied on to do a job but he doesn't really seem to have the attributes to grab the starting position with both hands and not let go for the next 4 years. So a bit of a stop gap measure at this stage?

@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:

@ShaquilleOatmeal

The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.

A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.

I don’t disagree but from within the squad they’ve chosen and with the players out injured, I don’t see much they can do to find the answers to those questions.

They know guys like Jordie Barrett, Will Jordan and Cam Roigard are going to be in the team. They know Ardie Savea is going to be in the team and Vaa’i should be persisted with at blindside with no uninjured potentially better options available.

The guys who haven’t played yet are Love, third-choice players and Lienert-Brown who they know all about and who has been slipping in form for a while now.

I just don’t see much benefit in making more than a handful of changes. Keep the core group together and hope they continue to improve.

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France III:

@voodoo said in All Blacks v France 2:

Seems odd that a visiting team would target the dead rubber Game 3 of a series as “the big one” that they want to win, but who the hell understands the French eh?

The logic seems to be that they'll target the third game because that's the game where the ABs were always expected to rotate their squad.

This makes a very big assumption by the French that not playing our incumbents would weaken our team.

The last few years have weakened my belief that this would be the case.

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v France III:

The guys who haven’t played yet are all clearly third-choice other than Lienert-Brown who they know all about and who has been slipping in form for a while now.

There's no evidence so far that Lio Willie and Kirifi are better than Jacobson and Papali'i.

Based on what we've seen from BB and Dmac, Love has to be given an opportunity. It's not clear that these guys offer more than what Love potentially could.

@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v France III:

The guys who haven’t played yet are all clearly third-choice other than Lienert-Brown who they know all about and who has been slipping in form for a while now.

There's no evidence so far that Lio Willie and Kirifi are better than Jacobson and Papali'i.

Based on what we've seen from BB and Dmac, Love has to be given an opportunity. It's not clear that these guys offer more than what Love potentially could.

I said in my original post I’d give Love a full half. Jacobson is out injured, isn’t he? And I feel like Lakai would be in the squad if fit ahead of Kirifi and Papali'i.

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v France III:

I said in my original post I’d give Love a full half. Jacobson is out injured, isn’t he? And I feel like Lakai would be in the squad if fit ahead of Kirifi and Papali'i.

Lakai is one of the few 'utilities' we have that seems to offer potential but genuine impact in more than one position. I get the impression (and Canes supporters can correct me) that he has pretty good rugby vision for someone relatively young, and despite not being a big loose forward he is reasonably robust and athletic (but not sure if that is as obvious this season as last-haven't seen enough Hurricanes games).

@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:

@MN5 said in All Blacks v France III:

@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:

@ShaquilleOatmeal

The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.

A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.

Which to me makes guys like Kirifi and Lio Willie surplus to requirements against the really big guns.

That move the latter did to set up Roigard was cool though.

Yes Lio Willie has been better than Kirifi. The way injuries come around it seems that Lio Willie can be relied on to do a job but he doesn't really seem to have the attributes to grab the starting position with both hands and not let go for the next 4 years. So a bit of a stop gap measure at this stage?

A good solid backup to Sititi I reckon.

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v France III:

@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v France III:

The guys who haven’t played yet are all clearly third-choice other than Lienert-Brown who they know all about and who has been slipping in form for a while now.

There's no evidence so far that Lio Willie and Kirifi are better than Jacobson and Papali'i.

Based on what we've seen from BB and Dmac, Love has to be given an opportunity. It's not clear that these guys offer more than what Love potentially could.

I said in my original post I’d give Love a full half. Jacobson is out injured, isn’t he? And I feel like Lakai would be in the squad if fit ahead of Kirifi and Papali'i.

Fair enough I missed that inclusion of Love. Hotham over Ratima is also worth investigating.

@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v France III:

@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v France III:

The guys who haven’t played yet are all clearly third-choice other than Lienert-Brown who they know all about and who has been slipping in form for a while now.

There's no evidence so far that Lio Willie and Kirifi are better than Jacobson and Papali'i.

Based on what we've seen from BB and Dmac, Love has to be given an opportunity. It's not clear that these guys offer more than what Love potentially could.

I said in my original post I’d give Love a full half. Jacobson is out injured, isn’t he? And I feel like Lakai would be in the squad if fit ahead of Kirifi and Papali'i.

Fair enough I missed that inclusion of Love. Hotham over Ratima is also worth investigating.

That’s my fault, I mentioned Love in one sentence, then generalised the players who hadn’t played in another.

Hotham’’s a possibility. I’m kind of interested to see how things might go if they started with the second choice halfback and brought Roigard on at (or even before) half time, rather than keeping him on the field till hes out on his feet. The next best halfbacks don’t seem to have much impact off the bench so it might be an idea to give them the first thirty just to be solid against a fresh and fired up opposition.