@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@canefan said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

We are playing so much worse than the sum of our parts. If we could just play with a little more intelligence, cohesion, and some more aggression we could do okay. Oh and catch some high balls

Therein lies the problem.

Like the worst days of Fozzie. This side is a pale imitation of what it should be with the players available.

Maybe it isn't all down to the coaching staff and there's other, deeper factors involved which have surfaced in the last 8-10 years?

Exactly right. None of this is new. The current old heads need to go. Their attitude is cancerous

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@canefan said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

We are playing so much worse than the sum of our parts. If we could just play with a little more intelligence, cohesion, and some more aggression we could do okay. Oh and catch some high balls

Therein lies the problem.

Like the worst days of Fozzie. This side is a pale imitation of what it should be with the players available.

Maybe it isn't all down to the coaching staff and there's other, deeper factors involved which have surfaced in the last 8-10 years?

Both things can be true.

There are bigger issues at play than just the coaches

Some of these coaches look out of their depth.

Moor, Plumtree weren't up to it and were rightly punted.

Some of these coaches should be headed for the same treatment.

It's going to be make or break for the Springboks. Most of them will remember the previous test at Mount Smart. The All Blacks challenge will put some spring in that old age Springboks step.

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@canefan said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

We are playing so much worse than the sum of our parts. If we could just play with a little more intelligence, cohesion, and some more aggression we could do okay. Oh and catch some high balls

Therein lies the problem.

Like the worst days of Fozzie. This side is a pale imitation of what it should be with the players available.

Maybe it isn't all down to the coaching staff and there's other, deeper factors involved which have surfaced in the last 8-10 years?

Both things can be true.

There are bigger issues at play than just the coaches

Some of these coaches look out of their depth.

Moor, Plumtree weren't up to it and were rightly punted.

Some of these coaches should be headed for the same treatment.

Holland must be under pressure?

As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.

The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.

The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.

Ignores the fact that most of the crusaders he coached were home grown talent that he fostered and coached to all black standard. It’s absolute crap. He made them the best squad in the comp and frequently got a back line and forward pack to equal more than the sum of their parts. All those crusaders, particularly the last 2-3 championships were entirely Robertson coached players.

@ShaquilleOatmeal that's my impression too. He certainly doesn't come across as a deep thinker of the game and if he is in fact leaving the coaching to his assistants, that would explain why they seem so disjointed on the field - a lack of overarching strategy and knowledge of what is the next likely play.

When confronted with an actual question his facial expressions suggest - like most people less endowed with intellect - he's taking it personally rather than welcoming the perspective permitting further analysis.

His shtick was clearly well suited to a high performing club scenario where he had an array of All Blacks setting expectations and excellent assistants. Outside of Jason Ryan the last doesn't apply to my mind. Holland and Hansen should be charged with fraud. It is unfathomable that a coach could take these players and make them less than the sum of their parts.

@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.

The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.

Ignores the fact that most of the crusaders he coached were home grown talent that he fostered and coached to all black standard. It’s absolute crap. He made them the best squad in the comp and frequently got a back line and forward pack to equal more than the sum of their parts. All those crusaders, particularly the last 2-3 championships were entirely Robertson coached players.

So I guess two questions in response

1. Where is this for the ABs? I'm not seeing an integrated machine where people know their roles like you saw for the Crusaders.

2. How does Rob Penney's success play into that? How much is Canterbury admin/systems/academy and how much is coaching? They did incredibly well to win the comp this year (if handed home advantage by the Blues) but with an average squad. Is Rob an incredible coach like Razor? Or is there more out there?

@nzzp said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.

The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.

Ignores the fact that most of the crusaders he coached were home grown talent that he fostered and coached to all black standard. It’s absolute crap. He made them the best squad in the comp and frequently got a back line and forward pack to equal more than the sum of their parts. All those crusaders, particularly the last 2-3 championships were entirely Robertson coached players.

So I guess two questions in response

1. Where is this for the ABs? I'm not seeing an integrated machine where people know their roles like you saw for the Crusaders.

2. How does Rob Penney's success play into that? How much is Canterbury admin/systems/academy and how much is coaching? They did incredibly well to win the comp this year (if handed home advantage by the Blues) but with an average squad. Is Rob an incredible coach like Razor? Or is there more out there?

I’d say:

1. The rot in the ABs has been around for a long time and I suspect the likes of B Barrett, Savea, ALB, McKenzie are next to uncoachable. Have a single one of them shown any improvement at all in the past 3-4 years? The rest have had their development years under sub standard coaching in the super rugby system. Those middle championships before and during Covid, the crusaders were basically taking the piss out of those other teams. Robertson consistently embarrassed established ABs with simple game plans. So now he has to trust those players (Barrett, McKenzie, Savea) to lead his ABs team? I think he’s been way too slow to throw the baby out with the bath water and that is his biggest failure. But to say he can’t coach and develop players from the ground up ignores the amazing players he’s coached (T Williams, Taylor, Newell, Jordan, Mounga, Reece (at the start)) as well as the dog shite players he’s created maximum value from.

2. The squad is and now largely established. Most decent coaches could win a championship with that team. But Robertson created that squad from the ground up. You can’t take that away from him. In 2016, he lost all the Crusaders ABs. Two years later, he never loses again. Penny couldn’t do the same.

@jimmyb I guess what I struggle with is 'he created all these players and built a fantastic team' and 'the current players are shit but he won't drop them'. Feels like both shouldn't be true at the same time - if he is as good at developing players as claimed, surely he'd either coach these players to be better - or drop them.

I still sheet our issues back to Super getting too big, the quality plummetting and (in my opinion) not preparing players for Tests that well any more.

@nzzp said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@jimmyb I guess what I struggle with is 'he created all these players and built a fantastic team' and 'the current players are shit but he won't drop them'. Feels like both shouldn't be true at the same time - if he is as good at developing players as claimed, surely he'd either coach these players to be better - or drop them.

I still sheet our issues back to Super getting too big, the quality plummetting and (in my opinion) not preparing players for Tests that well any more.

He needs to drop them. Should have happened last year. He hasn’t been brave enough with his selections. But every young player that’s come into the ABs set up and has received coaching, is looking that much better for it.

No one can tell me that DMac is literally uncoachable. He hasn’t improved a single facet of his game for 4 years. Ditto with B Barrett and Savea.

@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

The rot in the ABs has been around for a long time and I suspect the likes of B Barrett, Savea, ALB, McKenzie are next to uncoachable. Have a single one of them shown any improvement at all in the past 3-4 years? The rest have had their development years under sub standard coaching in the super rugby system. Those middle championships before and during Covid, the crusaders were basically taking the piss out of those other teams. Robertson consistently embarrassed established ABs with simple game plans. So now he has to trust those players (Barrett, McKenzie, Savea) to lead his ABs team? I think he’s been way too slow to throw the baby out with the bath water and that is his biggest failure.

How does that make sense?

1. He's an awesome coach.
2. Selects players.
3. Can't coach them.

@Tim said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Best loose forward in NZ, has been dumped. Dalton Papalii. Would actually win rucks against big teams like SA.

Guess we just need shit players who failed against the Brumbies.

NZ loves to promote dumb people. "Razor" can't even read. Par for the course.

It boggles my mind that Dalton is not even in the squad. Picking Kirifi ahead of him is such clear evidence that Razor has no idea what he's doing at test level.

@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.

The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.

Ignores the fact that most of the crusaders he coached were home grown talent that he fostered and coached to all black standard. It’s absolute crap. He made them the best squad in the comp and frequently got a back line and forward pack to equal more than the sum of their parts. All those crusaders, particularly the last 2-3 championships were entirely Robertson coached players.

Maybe I should have said All Blacks or players with potential to be All Blacks. The Crusaders have the best production line in NZ rugby. They're are better than every other Super Rugby team when it comes to early talent identification, recruitment, culture and mentorship and player retention. He had a lot more talent available to him than he would've had at another team. The players might not have been All Blacks when Robertson began coaching them and, yes, he played a part in getting them there, but they had the potential and the ability to play to a higher level than the players at other teams.

@OomPB said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

It's going to be make or break for the Springboks. Most of them will remember the previous test at Mount Smart. The All Blacks challenge will put some spring in that old age Springboks step.

It's going to be an absolute cracker. Both sides have dropped games they will think they should not have, so have plenty to prove already. Add the Eden Park record and the fact the Championship is very much on the line given results to date, she will be all on. There's not many sporting events I look forward to more than a test against the old foe.

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

It's going to be an absolute cracker.

I hope so but based on the Argie game we have 2 weeks to learn to pass, catch and kick. Given that we seem to lack the ability to even learn the laws (or at least obey them) it seems unlikely that we will achieve even one of those.

On the upside the haka was quite good, and about the only time we showed any coordination at all.

@Snowy said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

It's going to be an absolute cracker.

I hope so but based on the Argie game we have 2 weeks to learn to pass, catch and kick. Given that we seem to lack the ability to even learn the laws (or at least obey them) it seems unlikely that we will achieve even one of those.

On the upside the haka was quite good, and about the only time we showed any coordination at all.

Sounds like the Kiwis of old

@jimmyb

I think the point he was trying to make was, that what works for the Crusaders, player development and all that, is not what is needed at this level of international rugby.
The Rugby Championship is not a development competition.

@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@nzzp said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@jimmyb I guess what I struggle with is 'he created all these players and built a fantastic team' and 'the current players are shit but he won't drop them'. Feels like both shouldn't be true at the same time - if he is as good at developing players as claimed, surely he'd either coach these players to be better - or drop them.

I still sheet our issues back to Super getting too big, the quality plummetting and (in my opinion) not preparing players for Tests that well any more.

He needs to drop them. Should have happened last year. He hasn’t been brave enough with his selections. But every young player that’s come into the ABs set up and has received coaching, is looking that much better for it.

No one can tell me that DMac is literally uncoachable. He hasn’t improved a single facet of his game for 4 years. Ditto with B Barrett and Savea.

is or isn't?
4 years ago McKenzie was a sideways running fullback who relied entirely on his own evasive abilities. He's changed heaps in that time, turning into the best 10 in Super rugby. People talking about him and Barrett as if they are the same are just wrong.

@jimmyb Dmac was the best international 10 in world rugby last year.