@Frank thing is, once they hit the ABs, even Super, development shouldn't be needed, should just be fine tuning, but that is the problem, so many skills are being ignored at lower levels.

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Except Riekos been incredibly poor at 13 for years.

It's just quite depressing to see someone who is clearly not good enough for internationals getting an automatic 1st team pick over and over.

Well, if you completely ignore the fact he's one of the best defensive centre's we've had in a long time, I guess you could make that claim. I've said before, but I think a team like SA would value Rieko at centre a LOT more than we do given how much ground he covers on defense. But we're very focused on our centre's creating tries while ignoring other crucial aspects of the role at that level. I firmly believe the issues with Rieko on attack is because our backline tactics have been poor for a long time now, which means we never utilise his speed on the outside shoulder to get over the advantage line. Using him as a crash ball merchant so often is just so dumb.

No argument that he's a great defender.
And he could actually be a better option than Proctor at 13..........sigh.

But the lack of skill development is terrible.

I think the key takeaway from @No-Quarter's post is that regardless of skills development the ABs backline tactics have meant he's never been able to shine in the areas certain members of the Fern think are all that counts. Yet, with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism, suggesting could be a systemic issue rather than an individual issue.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ennor get a go because his fluffers seem to suggest he's more in the Smith mould than the other two, so it would be good to see if he could function in that way in the current AB system.

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank thing is, once they hit the ABs, even Super, development shouldn't be needed, should just be fine tuning, but that is the problem, so many skills are being ignored at lower levels.

Rieko is like his brother, freakish athleticism led to weaknesses in their game being papered over. I can understand that.

What I can't understand is the seeming lack of desire to address those deficiencies. Rieko is tall and quick. Look how little the Bok wingers are and they are good in the air. Why couldn't he get good under the high ball? Why couldn't training drills be set up to improve his passing or positioning on attack at center?

Compare to the legend that is Ben Smith. Far less gifted but kept working on his skills. Ends up being a complete player.

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism

Yeah true, as they've clearly played the same amount of test rugby, so it can't be just that Proctor has as much experience in a difficult position as Rieko has had in half of one of his many test seasons.

@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism

Yeah true, as they've clearly played the same amount of test rugby, so it can't be just that Proctor has as much experience in a difficult position as Rieko has had in half of one of his many test seasons.

Huh, a player can still get criticised on the actual game they play even if they haven't played many games.

Also, I said it was a systemic issue so wasn't attacking your boy Proctor (he hasn't lived up the hype yet but if @Canes4life didn't exist then that hype would be about 95% less).

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism

Yeah true, as they've clearly played the same amount of test rugby, so it can't be just that Proctor has as much experience in a difficult position as Rieko has had in half of one of his many test seasons.

Huh, a player can still get criticised on the actual game they play even if they haven't played many games.

Also, I said it was a systemic issue so wasn't attacking your boy Proctor (he hasn't lived up the hype yet but if @Canes4life didn't exist then that hype would be about 95% less).

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Except Riekos been incredibly poor at 13 for years.

It's just quite depressing to see someone who is clearly not good enough for internationals getting an automatic 1st team pick over and over.

Well, if you completely ignore the fact he's one of the best defensive centre's we've had in a long time, I guess you could make that claim. I've said before, but I think a team like SA would value Rieko at centre a LOT more than we do given how much ground he covers on defense. But we're very focused on our centre's creating tries while ignoring other crucial aspects of the role at that level. I firmly believe the issues with Rieko on attack is because our backline tactics have been poor for a long time now, which means we never utilise his speed on the outside shoulder to get over the advantage line. Using him as a crash ball merchant so often is just so dumb.

No argument that he's a great defender.
And he could actually be a better option than Proctor at 13..........sigh.

But the lack of skill development is terrible.

I think the key takeaway from @No-Quarter's post is that regardless of skills development the ABs backline tactics have meant he's never been able to shine in the areas certain members of the Fern think are all that counts. Yet, with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism, suggesting could be a systemic issue rather than an individual issue.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ennor get a go because his fluffers seem to suggest he's more in the Smith mould than the other two, so it would be good to see if he could function in that way in the current AB system.

I always felt Ennor was the heir to the 13 jersey but constant injuries keep costing him.
Still would like to see how he goes on the big stage

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Except Riekos been incredibly poor at 13 for years.

It's just quite depressing to see someone who is clearly not good enough for internationals getting an automatic 1st team pick over and over.

Well, if you completely ignore the fact he's one of the best defensive centre's we've had in a long time, I guess you could make that claim. I've said before, but I think a team like SA would value Rieko at centre a LOT more than we do given how much ground he covers on defense. But we're very focused on our centre's creating tries while ignoring other crucial aspects of the role at that level. I firmly believe the issues with Rieko on attack is because our backline tactics have been poor for a long time now, which means we never utilise his speed on the outside shoulder to get over the advantage line. Using him as a crash ball merchant so often is just so dumb.

No argument that he's a great defender.
And he could actually be a better option than Proctor at 13..........sigh.

But the lack of skill development is terrible.

I think the key takeaway from @No-Quarter's post is that regardless of skills development the ABs backline tactics have meant he's never been able to shine in the areas certain members of the Fern think are all that counts. Yet, with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism, suggesting could be a systemic issue rather than an individual issue.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ennor get a go because his fluffers seem to suggest he's more in the Smith mould than the other two, so it would be good to see if he could function in that way in the current AB system.

You gotta get away with your provincialism obsession and particular hatred of all things Canterbury. It's boring.

Rieko hasn't developed his game either at wing under the high ball or kick reception. He also hasn't developed a good passing game at center and apparently that's the fault of two successive coaching regimes. Don't make me laugh. Where's the accountability?

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism

Yeah true, as they've clearly played the same amount of test rugby, so it can't be just that Proctor has as much experience in a difficult position as Rieko has had in half of one of his many test seasons.

Huh, a player can still get criticised on the actual game they play even if they haven't played many games.

Also, I said it was a systemic issue so wasn't attacking your boy Proctor (he hasn't lived up the hype yet but if @Canes4life didn't exist then that hype would be about 95% less).

Weak argument. Nice try to distract with the provincial angle, but that just makes it more obvious you've got nothing else.

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism

Yeah true, as they've clearly played the same amount of test rugby, so it can't be just that Proctor has as much experience in a difficult position as Rieko has had in half of one of his many test seasons.

Huh, a player can still get criticised on the actual game they play even if they haven't played many games.

Also, I said it was a systemic issue so wasn't attacking your boy Proctor (he hasn't lived up the hype yet but if @Canes4life didn't exist then that hype would be about 95% less).

At least the players I rate become All Blacks. I’ve lost count of how many times you and @Stargazer have creamed yourself over Hawkes Bay players and they’ve ended up doing sweet f all.

How many HB players in the ABs again?

It would be good to see Rieko in a team with a functioning backline but the fact he hasn't strung together much on attack for the All Blacks or Blues in the past three or so years is somewhat damning regardless.

@kidcalder said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Except Riekos been incredibly poor at 13 for years.

It's just quite depressing to see someone who is clearly not good enough for internationals getting an automatic 1st team pick over and over.

Well, if you completely ignore the fact he's one of the best defensive centre's we've had in a long time, I guess you could make that claim. I've said before, but I think a team like SA would value Rieko at centre a LOT more than we do given how much ground he covers on defense. But we're very focused on our centre's creating tries while ignoring other crucial aspects of the role at that level. I firmly believe the issues with Rieko on attack is because our backline tactics have been poor for a long time now, which means we never utilise his speed on the outside shoulder to get over the advantage line. Using him as a crash ball merchant so often is just so dumb.

No argument that he's a great defender.
And he could actually be a better option than Proctor at 13..........sigh.

But the lack of skill development is terrible.

I think the key takeaway from @No-Quarter's post is that regardless of skills development the ABs backline tactics have meant he's never been able to shine in the areas certain members of the Fern think are all that counts. Yet, with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism, suggesting could be a systemic issue rather than an individual issue.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ennor get a go because his fluffers seem to suggest he's more in the Smith mould than the other two, so it would be good to see if he could function in that way in the current AB system.

I always felt Ennor was the heir to the 13 jersey but constant injuries keep costing him.
Still would like to see how he goes on the big stage

The only thing I remember Ennor ever doing at AB level was getting bumped by Robbie Henshaw as if he didn’t exist.

@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Maybe Razor just isn't doing enough breakdances to clear his mind?

I thought he used surfing to clear his mind?

Maybe there were no waves in Argentina?

Ennor looked great whenever he got on the field for the crusaders this year, looked a much better player. Is he injured? I'm surprised he wasn't considered as that centre/wing player.

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

It would be good to see Rieko in a team with a functioning backline but the fact he hasn't strung together much on attack for the All Blacks or Blues in the past three or so years is somewhat damning regardless.

Forgot about that.

Not only two different AB coaching set ups, but also two Blues set ups (Leon McDonald and Vern Cotter).

@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Instead we get Dagg acting like a fucking buffoon talking about betting.

Unfair on buffoons.

I'm cautiously optimistic about this game. See Ellis Park 2022 happening again. Teams and coaches have off days and there's 2 weeks to anaylyse and do the work needed to turn things around a little.

If we don't do well, however, then we really are in the shitter.

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

It also says a lot about these coaches.

The Super Rugby coaches, AB coaches or both?

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

It also says a lot about these coaches.

The Super Rugby coaches, AB coaches or both?

Both - over the last decade

@sparky said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank It's called towing the party line.

Is that worse than toeing the [start] line?

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Except Riekos been incredibly poor at 13 for years.

It's just quite depressing to see someone who is clearly not good enough for internationals getting an automatic 1st team pick over and over.

Well, if you completely ignore the fact he's one of the best defensive centre's we've had in a long time, I guess you could make that claim. I've said before, but I think a team like SA would value Rieko at centre a LOT more than we do given how much ground he covers on defense. But we're very focused on our centre's creating tries while ignoring other crucial aspects of the role at that level. I firmly believe the issues with Rieko on attack is because our backline tactics have been poor for a long time now, which means we never utilise his speed on the outside shoulder to get over the advantage line. Using him as a crash ball merchant so often is just so dumb.

No argument that he's a great defender.
And he could actually be a better option than Proctor at 13..........sigh.

But the lack of skill development is terrible.

I think the key takeaway from @No-Quarter's post is that regardless of skills development the ABs backline tactics have meant he's never been able to shine in the areas certain members of the Fern think are all that counts. Yet, with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism, suggesting could be a systemic issue rather than an individual issue.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ennor get a go because his fluffers seem to suggest he's more in the Smith mould than the other two, so it would be good to see if he could function in that way in the current AB system.

You gotta get away with your provincialism obsession and particular hatred of all things Canterbury. It's boring.

Rieko hasn't developed his game either at wing under the high ball or kick reception. He also hasn't developed a good passing game at center and apparently that's the fault of two successive coaching regimes. Don't make me laugh. Where's the accountability?

Provincial obsession? None of the players discussed have anything to do with my province and I just said I wanted to see Ennor given a chance. But you do you.

@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

with Proctor in the role now he's facing the same criticism

Yeah true, as they've clearly played the same amount of test rugby, so it can't be just that Proctor has as much experience in a difficult position as Rieko has had in half of one of his many test seasons.

Huh, a player can still get criticised on the actual game they play even if they haven't played many games.

Also, I said it was a systemic issue so wasn't attacking your boy Proctor (he hasn't lived up the hype yet but if @Canes4life didn't exist then that hype would be about 95% less).

At least the players I rate become All Blacks. I’ve lost count of how many times you and @Stargazer have creamed yourself over Hawkes Bay players and they’ve ended up doing sweet f all.

How many HB players in the ABs again?

Bahaha, I didn't expect you to bite so hard on that.

Clearly, the last test has shown us that we're clearly lacking HB players in this squad .

@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

At least the players I rate become All Blacks.

Iose awaiting the inevitable call up.

@pakman said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@sparky said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank It's called towing the party line.

Is that worse than toeing the [start] line?

It's more difficult, that line is heavy

@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@jimmyb Dmac was the best international 10 in world rugby last year.

Better than Crowley or Russel? I wouldn’t say so

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Rieko has easily been a better centre than what we have seen from Proctor so far at test level - and also comfortably better than ALB over the last four years at test level.

Proctor and ALBs games just aren't translating at test level.

I agree that Rieko should be considered as a 13 that covers wing. He's never been strong under the high ball.

People get over excited about Super form. Super Rugby is no longer the premier club competition.

Reece is another example of a player who has been great in Super Rugby and mediocre at test level.

Rieko isn't even performing at Super Rugby level, and our form wingers are Carter/Narawa from Super, not Reece.

And I also think you have it backwards, our issue is NOT choosing form players from Super Rugby.

Australia did with Wright and Jorgenson who were performing at Super level and they just destroyed the best of the North a month ago and the Springboks at home.

@kpkanz Reece was excellent during the super season. But his game is not helping us win the ball so he should be replaced for Narawa for this test. I like Narawa in the air.

@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Rieko has easily been a better centre than what we have seen from Proctor so far at test level - and also comfortably better than ALB over the last four years at test level.

Proctor and ALBs games just aren't translating at test level.

I agree that Rieko should be considered as a 13 that covers wing. He's never been strong under the high ball.

People get over excited about Super form. Super Rugby is no longer the premier club competition.

Reece is another example of a player who has been great in Super Rugby and mediocre at test level.

Rieko isn't even performing at Super Rugby level, and our form wingers are Carter/Narawa from Super, not Reece.

And I also think you have it backwards, our issue is NOT choosing form players from Super Rugby.

Australia did with Wright and Jorgenson who were performing at Super level and they just destroyed the best of the North a month ago and the Springboks at home.

Rieko has undoubtedly performed better at center for the ABs than he has at Super Level in the previous two years. Proctor or ALB at test level have simply not been as good as Rieko at 13. Too many mistakes and too much ill discipline.

@pakman said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Posting here, although comments based on Pumas 2.

Three main areas of concern:

1. Aerial. We are holed below water line. Need AFL style coaching toot sweet;

2. Backline. Seemed impossible to run backline moves because forwards were constantly in the way. Can’t we just run some straight backline moves?
   DMac created space whereas BB was shackled by Puma D.
   Jordie seems clunky. Like to see miss passes straight to 13. Would have liked to see Tuapea get a run outside DMac at 12.
   Taking Proctor off for Quinn seemed to solve nothing. Would have been better to push Jordie into back three and let Proctor have a run with Tuapea inside;

3. Loosies. As I feared, the formulaic selection was a failure. A balanced trio needs to encompass a fetcher, a ball slower, jumper, cleaner, smasher, and explosive runner. To a degree who does which isn’t so important. We ended up with no real fetcher, no ball slower and no smasher. The second Puma try highlighted the need for a 6 who’s used to defending off scrums.
   In fact when Sititi came on it would have been better if Vaa’i had gone to lock, perhaps replacing Scooter, and Parker to six.
   I think TWM should treat Sititi and Savea as 8s, and only have one on field at a time, Parker and Finau as 6s and Kirifi and Jacobson as 7s, Lakai seems to genuinely cover 7 and 8, and would have been a better bet than RD at 7.

Holy smokes people. So much negativity and gnashing of teeth by the AB fans.
The Boks have hardly looked stellar in either of their games so far.
Given this is an away test, at the fortress Eden Park, the Boks are underdogs by some distance.
We have so many areas of the game to fix to get back to something you all seem to fear, I think you are worrying way too much.

Not to say the Boks can't win. But if I got 50:50 odds on this game, I would for sure put my money on the AB's. Way too many factors in the AB's favour for the Boks not to be the outsiders here.

EDIT: to be clear, I think the Boks have a shot. But it will take something better than we dished up the last 2 games.

@Billy-Webb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Given this is an away test, at the fortress Eden Park, the Boks are underdogs by some distance.

Nice try, but based on the Buenos Aries game, a number of our chosen backs can't catch, pass or kick.

The Boks should win easily.

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Dan54 when Parsons was playing he always had some great analysis of games, players, was always good value.

Such a shame if these guys are being restrained on what they can and can't say now.

I not sure they are restrained, I just genuinely think they look at whole picture and go from there? It probably easier for us we watch game, see someone , decide we like them or not and then excuse them if we do, and rubbish them if we don't. A classic case is Christie, how many people when going crook about him mention he a ranga etc. See I thought he was one of our best backs on weekend. Same as BB, many will come up with he was best sometime ago, and suggest players like Love who has played 3 games at 10 etc. When we don't like players, we see them miss a tackle etc, and get stuck in, we don't look at any breakdown of defense system.
In saying that they could be same, and like us being easier on people they are mates with personally, as would I bet anyone on here. It's just something I have thougt about a bit lately, and the only way you will get people just looking for people to blame, and not look at whole thing is perhaps ONLY have pundits who have never had a relationship with any of the players?
So basically someone outside of the game completely.

Anyway it's been 3 days since the cock up on weekend, and this thread is for next test. I genuinely don't think there will be many changes, mainly because I not sure who else in the squad is the answer against the Boks. I would perhaps think a Kirifi for loose chasing loose ball, but not sure who for anyway. In backs perhaps a change on wings if Clarke right, or they decide to give Jordan a run at 14.
And I will be yelling and supporting them as I always do regardless (he says with a sigh lol)
But by geez there better not be any cards!!!!!!!!!!

MOTM polls vs boks last year (those over 10%):
Clarke, Vaai, Taylor, Jordie, Blackadder
Taylor, Vaai, Sititi, Cane

Which may suggest our best lock ought to be playing lock, we miss Clarke - who Razor left out at the start of the season when available - and we need some loosies who are going to hit attacking rucks. Not that we won those games, mind.