It was Alex Robertson this year, although the attacking structures seemed to be a continuation of Brad Cooper's work from the previous year.

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I think the backlash at Eden Park vs the Wallabies in a couple of weeks is going to be reassuring to most here.

Nah, we've seen this movie before. It's the fixture after that one that'll tell the story. I can't see this current iteration doing better than what they've done all TRC; going 1 -1 against the same opposition.

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Fixed:

2/3 Barretts have to go. Pick one as a bench player. BB has to go. I don't think he offers anything more than McKenzie at 10, and some of his decision making under pressure shows his flaws - particularly some of the passes that compounded pressure on his team mates.
bolded text>
Proctor looks like a whole-hearted player and he mostly does good things, but I wonder where his ceiling is. Perhaps the return of Tupaea to the 12 jersey to add a bit of starch, and moving Jordie out one might help, with them swapping roles depending on the situation.

Your scrumhalf crisis can't be ignored in all this. Christie is serviceable and even good at times, but a fit and firing Roigaard as well as Ratima would help I think.

Up front you really need to sort out what the balance of the pack, and find a better third-string hooker.

I don't mind Holland. Maybe if you team him up with S Barrettthe cymbal banging monkey toy they’ve replaced Vaa’i with it is a bit more even in terms of hard workers, tho the latter did himself no favours on the weekend. I guess you need to find someone better before you go casting players aside.

Vaa'i looks like a blindside flanker fairly handy loose lockto me. A not-very-bright one who would rather pick fights and do Aaron Smith impressions than knuckle down and play rugby. I don't mind persisting with Parker, who fits that bill. If you complement him with Papalii at 7 and Ardie at 8 and captain, it might bring a bit more balance to the back row.

Oh and the defence coach needs to be fired into the sun. Razor to be shown what an "exit play" looks like, on repeat.

Oh and the attack coach needs to be fired. If you can’t create busts with strike runners with the quality of Jordan, Sititi, Ardie, BB and dMac even if you’re convinced that Newell is your best pivot, you ought to get made the janitor in charge of cleaning Eden Parks’ bogs, eh bro!

View image

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Second half thoughts:

McKenzie good in the air a couple of times, but gets beaten later not getting into the space a couple of times as well. Wind factor?

Noticeable - like the Kolbe intercept - that the Boks are leaving a lot of space for the last defender to cover BUT they're rushing into the eyeline of the attacker e.g. Savea's forward pass at the start of the 2nd half due to the 12 rushing hard.

It looks like a lack of patience; like watching my club side get two offloads away and making some metres, so they keep trying it but fail to understand they're running out of guys to cover rucks.

Bok 2nd try was error after error from the ABs - first all the back rowers are pinned in a retreating and penalisable scrum, then rangaboi puts a high tackle on Reinach for two penalties in a row. Meanwhile the AB backline have shot out of the line and are busy ruck watching when Kolisi takes the pop. Jordan and Sititi utterly fail to cover this breakout, leaving Jordie Barrett to do the work and leave the right side exposed. After Kolisi is tackled, the numbers aren't bad, just looking inward instead of at the danger on the edge: Kolbe.

Not sure why the AB restarts are so deep. Every time Wiese gets a runup and the Boks get a fairly easy possession.

In the 45th minute BB fields a kick and gives it to McKenzie on the 22 but outside - instead of using Jordie and Carter outside him he kicks it straight away. A minute later they get the ball deep inside their 22 and BB to McKenzie who has to try and find touch from the middle of the field. Not sure if there is any clear plan here.

Vaa'i puts in a stupid shoulder charge and is still doing the dickhead laugh and tough guy act after someone reacts. Hardly the "stoic, grim-faced and noble" AB of mythology. I guess there are some Chiefs fans who love it tho :man_shrugging:

Sititi really looks half a yard off the pace. Tamaiti Williams looks 5 yards off the pace.

At 50 minutes the handling errors and penalties are pretty even but the turnovers conceded favours the ABs 7-10. As Darryl Kerrigan said: "It's what you do with it".

The space is still there on the edges for the ABs, but jeez the skill execution is letting them down - Jordan's wobbly spiral that misses Proctor (who looked too slow TBH) and lands at Carter's feet being a prime example. Jordan should have gone at or around Libbok like the Wallabies did.

ABs a bit unlucky to get penalised at the scrum just on 54:00 - Bok THP elbow pointing straight down.

OMG 55:00 Bok forward pass missed (AR straight in line) then Savea turns it over only for BB to faff around. There is no clear direction in his mind - unless there is some magical bullshit involved, and a rampant forward pack, Barrett has no idea. And a chip kick right after it. Lol sack him.

Wiese eats black jerseys for dinner. Sititi, by comparison, tries a rugby league strip at nearly every tackle.

ABs blow a chance at competitiveness with obstruction at a maul in the 59th minute. After that we're through the looking glass, Alice... I think from this point I was actually watching the game, so I'll go bullet points from here.

• Boks young guns start expressing themselves.
• Backup AB hooker is partly to blame, but fucking around at lineout moreso.
• Three ABs (Tupaea, Carter, Rangaboi) fail to bring down Willemse. Yeesh. They paused instead of smacking a guy on the back foot.
• CHIP KICK! OVERTHROW! OVERKICK!
• At 65:00 missed tackles: ABs 31-29 Boks
• Stupid offload by Jordan after taking the high ball gives the Boks a scrum with 13 to go just outside the AB 22.
• Hooker's break of BB's shit kick made to look better by a fairly shit AB chase line. Sets up field position for Kwagga's try
• Snyman's try is all down to Holland shooting out. I said that on the day I believe.
• 75:35 Hey Will Jordan: two hands for beginners! Tho at the scrum immediately afterwards the Boks should have been pinged as their THP absolutely shit the bed.
• CROSSFIELD KICK! CHIP KICK ARDIE!
• Tamaiti Williams out of alignment for the Boks last try, and instead of advancing, he retreats.

And a bloodied but victorious Esterhuizen is the icing on the cake.

That's the nuts and bolts. New post coming for summary thoughts.

Only three scrums in last 20. At 64:30 ABs get scrum penalty, at 67 ABs have nudge but Boks clear, and at 76:30 ABs get nudge, but Louw stands up taking Williams with him. So scrum wasnt the problem.

As for lineouts in that period, there were 6:

At 60 Vaa'i calls the fandango and ABs confuse themselves allowing Nortje to take ball hardly jumping;
62: FH wins easily
65:30 Throw too low to FH and PSDT gets hand in front
71 FH wins at front with throw meant for Boks middle pod
72 PSDT wins
77 Long throw to RD, who wins it but slap back with no control.
So apart from the self destruction at 60 the lineouts were actually even.

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Second half thoughts:

McKenzie good in the air a couple of times, but gets beaten later not getting into the space a couple of times as well. Wind factor?

Noticeable - like the Kolbe intercept - that the Boks are leaving a lot of space for the last defender to cover BUT they're rushing into the eyeline of the attacker e.g. Savea's forward pass at the start of the 2nd half due to the 12 rushing hard.

It looks like a lack of patience; like watching my club side get two offloads away and making some metres, so they keep trying it but fail to understand they're running out of guys to cover rucks.

Bok 2nd try was error after error from the ABs - first all the back rowers are pinned in a retreating and penalisable scrum, then rangaboi puts a high tackle on Reinach for two penalties in a row. Meanwhile the AB backline have shot out of the line and are busy ruck watching when Kolisi takes the pop. Jordan and Sititi utterly fail to cover this breakout, leaving Jordie Barrett to do the work and leave the right side exposed. After Kolisi is tackled, the numbers aren't bad, just looking inward instead of at the danger on the edge: Kolbe.

Not sure why the AB restarts are so deep. Every time Wiese gets a runup and the Boks get a fairly easy possession.

In the 45th minute BB fields a kick and gives it to McKenzie on the 22 but outside - instead of using Jordie and Carter outside him he kicks it straight away. A minute later they get the ball deep inside their 22 and BB to McKenzie who has to try and find touch from the middle of the field. Not sure if there is any clear plan here.

Vaa'i puts in a stupid shoulder charge and is still doing the dickhead laugh and tough guy act after someone reacts. Hardly the "stoic, grim-faced and noble" AB of mythology. I guess there are some Chiefs fans who love it tho :man_shrugging:

Sititi really looks half a yard off the pace. Tamaiti Williams looks 5 yards off the pace.

At 50 minutes the handling errors and penalties are pretty even but the turnovers conceded favours the ABs 7-10. As Darryl Kerrigan said: "It's what you do with it".

The space is still there on the edges for the ABs, but jeez the skill execution is letting them down - Jordan's wobbly spiral that misses Proctor (who looked too slow TBH) and lands at Carter's feet being a prime example. Jordan should have gone at or around Libbok like the Wallabies did.

ABs a bit unlucky to get penalised at the scrum just on 54:00 - Bok THP elbow pointing straight down.

OMG 55:00 Bok forward pass missed (AR straight in line) then Savea turns it over only for BB to faff around. There is no clear direction in his mind - unless there is some magical bullshit involved, and a rampant forward pack, Barrett has no idea. And a chip kick right after it. Lol sack him.

Wiese eats black jerseys for dinner. Sititi, by comparison, tries a rugby league strip at nearly every tackle.

ABs blow a chance at competitiveness with obstruction at a maul in the 59th minute. After that we're through the looking glass, Alice... I think from this point I was actually watching the game, so I'll go bullet points from here.

• Boks young guns start expressing themselves.
• Backup AB hooker is partly to blame, but fucking around at lineout moreso.
• Three ABs (Tupaea, Carter, Rangaboi) fail to bring down Willemse. Yeesh. They paused instead of smacking a guy on the back foot.
• CHIP KICK! OVERTHROW! OVERKICK!
• At 65:00 missed tackles: ABs 31-29 Boks
• Stupid offload by Jordan after taking the high ball gives the Boks a scrum with 13 to go just outside the AB 22.
• Hooker's break of BB's shit kick made to look better by a fairly shit AB chase line. Sets up field position for Kwagga's try
• Snyman's try is all down to Holland shooting out. I said that on the day I believe.
• 75:35 Hey Will Jordan: two hands for beginners! Tho at the scrum immediately afterwards the Boks should have been pinged as their THP absolutely shit the bed.
• CROSSFIELD KICK! CHIP KICK ARDIE!
• Tamaiti Williams out of alignment for the Boks last try, and instead of advancing, he retreats.

And a bloodied but victorious Esterhuizen is the icing on the cake.

That's the nuts and bolts. New post coming for summary thoughts.

Here’s the reverse angle (shown at around 43.15) of the scrum at 42:

Wessels has collapsed. Parker is thrown off the arse of Lomax, who seems to let Wessels back up, but he's now under Lomax ribcage and that shifts him firmly into reverse, for which the ABs are penalised. But what was the first offence?

It was right in front tof Gardner's nose (that's him on the right)!

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I think the backlash at Eden Park vs the Wallabies in a couple of weeks is going to be reassuring to most here.

Nah, we've seen this movie before. It's the fixture after that one that'll tell the story. I can't see this current iteration doing better than what they've done all TRC; going 1 -1 against the same opposition.

Yeah I made a post before eden park that was a bit tongue in cheek that we will get up for eden park and everything will feel right with the world then be terrible at the cake tin and get rolled , not so funny now it’s our reality.

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I think the backlash at Eden Park vs the Wallabies in a couple of weeks is going to be reassuring to most here.

Not to me mate. I know the Wallabies will expect a backlash, and perhaps can work in their favour.
But whether we do get one, we shouldn't need a hiding to wake up out coaching staff.
I fully support them etc, but can't help feeling we were so badly outcoached it was a huge problem. I don't like the idea of Robertson and Ryan playing the big men and coming out with the 'it's my fault, and I take responsibility'. Just shut up and fix things, do a Rassie , be honest say hell that was dogshit!!
But apart from that I genuinely think we need to get better, just because we can, not from backlash.

@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

View embedded content

If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

Thanks for pulling this data out, just paints a picture that because of the way the ABs have decided to play, Proctor is getting barely any chance to make a proper impact.

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

View embedded content

If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

Thanks for pulling this data out, just paints a picture that because of the way the ABs have decided to play, Proctor is getting barely any chance to make a proper impact.

Same probably went for Reiko

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

View embedded content

If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

Thanks for pulling this data out, just paints a picture that because of the way the ABs have decided to play, Proctor is getting barely any chance to make a proper impact.

Same probably went for Reiko

Yep and it will be the same for Lester if they choose to slot him in at 13.

We are so close but so far away right now. Even with the players the coaches have selected we should be much better than this. Someone talked about whether we were overthinking our backline play, that maybe we were stifling our ability to read what's in front of us and make decisions. But maybe our problem is we actually don't have a well defined structure and plan? The coaches are clearly happy with BB, DM and others such as Proctor and Ardie kicking ball away, but it doesn't make it easy for the rest of the team to react if they don't even know what's coming? We look out of sync much of the time. BB actually played okay when he played it straight in the first 15 minutes or so, same as the team. I think the coaches need to strip down the tactics, give a much clearer guideline to our objectives so we can have a more predictable structure that can allow our individual players to shine at the right time? I expect we will get more fly by the seat of the pants stuff because Razor and his coaches will think "if we can just do it better...."

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

View embedded content

If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

Thanks for pulling this data out, just paints a picture that because of the way the ABs have decided to play, Proctor is getting barely any chance to make a proper impact.

Same probably went for Reiko

I'm not anti-Rieko, and would have no problem with him being selected based on his defence - but he has hardly carved it up or shown a great passing game for the Blues over the past 2 seasons - which may of course be a reflection of how they have played too.
The last time I think he was really good was the WC.

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

View embedded content

If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

Thanks for pulling this data out, just paints a picture that because of the way the ABs have decided to play, Proctor is getting barely any chance to make a proper impact.

Same probably went for Reiko

I'm not anti-Rieko, and would have no problem with him being selected based on his defence - but he has hardly carved it up or shown a great passing game for the Blues over the past 2 seasons - which may of course be a reflection of how they have played too.
The last time I think he was really good was the WC.

Billy carved up for the Canes when he was fit this season. But now apparently he's turned to shit. Something isn't right in the camp

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

View embedded content

If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

Thanks for pulling this data out, just paints a picture that because of the way the ABs have decided to play, Proctor is getting barely any chance to make a proper impact.

Same probably went for Reiko

I'm not anti-Rieko, and would have no problem with him being selected based on his defence - but he has hardly carved it up or shown a great passing game for the Blues over the past 2 seasons - which may of course be a reflection of how they have played too.
The last time I think he was really good was the WC.

Billy carved up for the Canes when he was fit this season. But now apparently he's turned to shit. Something isn't right in the camp

Ah yes, but even my grandma would carve up outside Riley Higgins.

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

View embedded content

If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

Thanks for pulling this data out, just paints a picture that because of the way the ABs have decided to play, Proctor is getting barely any chance to make a proper impact.

Same probably went for Reiko

I'm not anti-Rieko, and would have no problem with him being selected based on his defence - but he has hardly carved it up or shown a great passing game for the Blues over the past 2 seasons - which may of course be a reflection of how they have played too.
The last time I think he was really good was the WC.

Billy carved up for the Canes when he was fit this season. But now apparently he's turned to shit. Something isn't right in the camp

Ah yes, but even my grandma would carve up outside Riley Higgins.

LOL

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

View embedded content

If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

Thanks for pulling this data out, just paints a picture that because of the way the ABs have decided to play, Proctor is getting barely any chance to make a proper impact.

Same probably went for Reiko

I'm not anti-Rieko, and would have no problem with him being selected based on his defence - but he has hardly carved it up or shown a great passing game for the Blues over the past 2 seasons - which may of course be a reflection of how they have played too.
The last time I think he was really good was the WC.

Maybe that speaks to what Joe Schmidt was able to extract from him? The current AB coaches definitely aren't getting the best out of him.

@Kirwan so who are you selecting then. What’s your ideal back row.

Btw, for what it's worth - it's mostly just a piece of trivia but still worth noting imo:

The abs try went through 12 players hands. Two front rowers didn't touch it - Samisoni and Lomax. The back that didn't touch it was Proctor.

There was at least one occasion when he could have received a pass in the sequence - from DMac who instead skipped him and I think there was a second occasion when someone could have passed to him but instead took it into contact - maybe Ardie?

Im not offering this as a criticism of him its just interesting that in a 28 pass passage of play that lasts 90 seconds your centre doesn't touch the ball.

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Second half thoughts:

Bok 2nd try was error after error from the ABs - first all the back rowers are pinned in a retreating and penalisable scrum,

However, Boks LH ought to have been penalised.

then rangaboi puts a high tackle on Reinach for two penalties in a row. Meanwhile the AB backline have shot out of the line and are busy ruck watching when Kolisi takes the pop. Jordan and Sititi utterly fail to cover this breakout, leaving Jordie Barrett to do the work and leave the right side exposed. After Kolisi is tackled, the numbers aren't bad, just looking inward instead of at the danger on the edge: Kolbe.

Not sure why the AB restarts are so deep. Every time Wiese gets a runup and the Boks get a fairly easy possession.

In the 45th minute BB fields a kick and gives it to McKenzie on the 22 but outside - instead of using Jordie and Carter outside him he kicks it straight away. A minute later they get the ball deep inside their 22 and BB to McKenzie who has to try and find touch from the middle of the field. Not sure if there is any clear plan here.

Vaa'i puts in a stupid shoulder charge and is still doing the dickhead laugh and tough guy act after someone reacts. Hardly the "stoic, grim-faced and noble" AB of mythology. I guess there are some Chiefs fans who love it tho :man_shrugging:

Sititi really looks half a yard off the pace. Tamaiti Williams looks 5 yards off the pace.

At 50 minutes the handling errors and penalties are pretty even but the turnovers conceded favours the ABs 7-10. As Darryl Kerrigan said: "It's what you do with it".

The space is still there on the edges for the ABs, but jeez the skill execution is letting them down - Jordan's wobbly spiral that misses Proctor (who looked too slow TBH) and lands at Carter's feet being a prime example. Jordan should have gone at or around Libbok like the Wallabies did.

ABs a bit unlucky to get penalised at the scrum just on 54:00 - Bok THP elbow pointing straight down.

Boks LH elbow on ground. Parker points out to Gardner, who is unmoved. That said, looked like Newell was pulling down on LH arm.

OMG 55:00 Bok forward pass missed (AR straight in line)

Saw that!

then Savea turns it over only for BB to faff around. There is no clear direction in his mind - unless there is some magical bullshit involved, and a rampant forward pack, Barrett has no idea. And a chip kick right after it. Lol sack him.

To be fair AB backs had a good period after that with BB varying play well.

@pakman said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Second half thoughts:

Bok 2nd try was error after error from the ABs - first all the back rowers are pinned in a retreating and penalisable scrum,

However, Boks LH ought to have been penalised.

then rangaboi puts a high tackle on Reinach for two penalties in a row. Meanwhile the AB backline have shot out of the line and are busy ruck watching when Kolisi takes the pop. Jordan and Sititi utterly fail to cover this breakout, leaving Jordie Barrett to do the work and leave the right side exposed. After Kolisi is tackled, the numbers aren't bad, just looking inward instead of at the danger on the edge: Kolbe.

Not sure why the AB restarts are so deep. Every time Wiese gets a runup and the Boks get a fairly easy possession.

In the 45th minute BB fields a kick and gives it to McKenzie on the 22 but outside - instead of using Jordie and Carter outside him he kicks it straight away. A minute later they get the ball deep inside their 22 and BB to McKenzie who has to try and find touch from the middle of the field. Not sure if there is any clear plan here.

Vaa'i puts in a stupid shoulder charge and is still doing the dickhead laugh and tough guy act after someone reacts. Hardly the "stoic, grim-faced and noble" AB of mythology. I guess there are some Chiefs fans who love it tho :man_shrugging:

Sititi really looks half a yard off the pace. Tamaiti Williams looks 5 yards off the pace.

At 50 minutes the handling errors and penalties are pretty even but the turnovers conceded favours the ABs 7-10. As Darryl Kerrigan said: "It's what you do with it".

The space is still there on the edges for the ABs, but jeez the skill execution is letting them down - Jordan's wobbly spiral that misses Proctor (who looked too slow TBH) and lands at Carter's feet being a prime example. Jordan should have gone at or around Libbok like the Wallabies did.

ABs a bit unlucky to get penalised at the scrum just on 54:00 - Bok THP elbow pointing straight down.

Boks LH elbow on ground. Parker points out to Gardner, who is unmoved. That said, looked like Newell was pulling down on LH arm.

OMG 55:00 Bok forward pass missed (AR straight in line)

Saw that!

then Savea turns it over only for BB to faff around. There is no clear direction in his mind - unless there is some magical bullshit involved, and a rampant forward pack, Barrett has no idea. And a chip kick right after it. Lol sack him.

To be fair AB backs had a good period after that with BB varying play well.

Ah yes, the 57th minute, when Beauden takes it to the line for the first time in the game.
By the 58th they were carving us up again, and they score in the 60th.

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.

RugbyPass these days has player profile pages where you can look at specific stats for each competition (TRC, SRP, NPC, and so on). This is Proctor's page, for example:

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If you want to know how often he passed for the Hurricanes, you can take his total number of passes during this year's Canes season (73), divide it by his total playing minutes (517) and then multiply by 80 to get a match average.

So he'd get to a number of 11.3 passes per 80 minutes, which is considerably more than what he averages for the ABs during the TRC (5.1 passes per 80 minutes).

Thanks for pulling this data out, just paints a picture that because of the way the ABs have decided to play, Proctor is getting barely any chance to make a proper impact.

Thats the nature of test rugby though. Games are naturally tighter. Proctors greatest strength in Super Rugby simply isn't as important in Test Rugby.

@stodders said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

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I realise Eddie is not the same coach any more but what he says here is correct. The out the back stuff ruins one of New Zealand rugby backs best natural strengths - running on to the ball straight and hard. It goes against our natural instinct.

“When you are watching the All Blacks’ games now, on their phase attack, they drop the pass out the back to a playmaker, but it’s a very stationary action, so yes, they they they toss the ball out the back, but it’s to a guy standing still,” he explained.

“So there’s no momentum to capitalise on. You compare that with what Argentina do, where there’s someone coming onto the ball hard"

@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@stodders said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

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I realise Eddie is not the same coach any more but what he says here is correct. The out the back stuff ruins one of New Zealand rugby backs best natural strengths - running on to the ball straight and hard. It goes against our natural instinct.

“When you are watching the All Blacks’ games now, on their phase attack, they drop the pass out the back to a playmaker, but it’s a very stationary action, so yes, they they they toss the ball out the back, but it’s to a guy standing still,” he explained.

“So there’s no momentum to capitalise on. You compare that with what Argentina do, where there’s someone coming onto the ball hard"

He and McKenzie are 100% correct they pulled our attack apart very well in that article.
The worry for me we don't seem to see the same picture which means no improvement, we will just carry on and keep getting shut down behind the advantage line which stuffs our forward pack through going backwards most of the game.
Jones nailed it when he said.
"Unfortunately, you don’t get any points for going to the sideline,” he remarked. “So that’s the game, mate.”

Jezus, maybe backs in NZ are not smarter than forwards after all. How the fuck have we, as in 'backs', not managed to master anything more complicated than run hard and run straight?

@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Jezus, maybe backs in NZ are not smarter than forwards after all. How the fuck have we, as in 'backs', not managed to master anything more complicated than run hard and run straight?

Well that's the attack pattern this coaching team wants. They're just doing what's coached.

The match was long since over but ardies chip kick in the 78th minute in his own 22 is such a poor reflection.

In that it gifted yet more possession to the Boks in the abs half and in the first place was a show pony move. You don't want to see your loosies attempting chip kicks in their own 22 at all, never mind when you are getting destroyed. And of course they scored to just run extra salt into the wounds.

These chip kicks that the abs attempt at times are just an abomination. Its more or less a reflection of a total lack of imagination on attack - it's just hopeful and speculative play.

@Crazy-Horse but we often dont even manage the run hard and straight part!

Was so embarrassing if I'm being honest, Scott and Beauden pathetic the younger players Sititi & Williams look off the pace since returning from injury, Jordan had a shocker, hate to bag on newbie Brodie but just terrible, Jordie is good on defence, I'm unsure about Proctor, Carter had some good touches although defence somewhat shakey, Springboks schooled us and now "Uncle Siya" leaves with the Freedom cup ‍️if we lose the Bledisloe Razor and his useless assistants must go

@Grooter Yup, Williams has been underwhelming since returning from injury. Looks out of shape and seems to be struggling to breathe when the camera is on him.

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Grooter Yup, Williams has been underwhelming since returning from injury. Looks out of shape and seems to be struggling to breathe when the camera is on him.

You just need to look at Williams to know that cardio wouldn’t come as naturally to him as others.

Sititi seems to really have that second year syndrome which he can hopefully overcome.

@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Grooter Yup, Williams has been underwhelming since returning from injury. Looks out of shape and seems to be struggling to breathe when the camera is on him.

You just need to look at Williams to know that cardio wouldn’t come as naturally to him as others.

Sititi seems to really have that second year syndrome which he can hopefully overcome.

His workrate has always been poor

The AB backline looked better in first 60 than it had previously in TRC.

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

BB kicked when he shouldn’t have

Not sure what to say there.

Finally logged back in.

Was at the game on Saturday and that was the most insipid All Blacks performance since 3 weeks ago against Argentina.

2nd half was a disaster and Brodie McAllister was completely out of his depth at this level.

Winning starts in the front office and we aren't winning in this scenario. The sooner Mark Robinson goes the better.

Man I wished Razor chose Tony Brown instead of Jason Holland. I could have told you Holland was going to be a complete dud from his time as the Hurricanes head coach.

@MacDazzler said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Finally logged back in.

Was at the game on Saturday and that was the most insipid All Blacks performance since 3 weeks ago against Argentina.

2nd half was a disaster and Brodie McAllister was completely out of his depth at this level.

Winning starts in the front office and we aren't winning in this scenario. The sooner Mark Robinson goes the better.

Man I wished Razor chose Tony Brown instead of Jason Holland. I could have told you Holland was going to be a complete dud from his time as the Hurricanes head coach.

The NZR dropped the ball with their recruitment process didn't they? Procrastinated and meanwhile they lost candidates includng Brown. Comparing the current coaching panel to our previous trios from the last 10 years, this one looks increasingly lightweight

@Smuts said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@pakman said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I didn't watch yesterday, so knowing the score and reading the thread I actually expected much worse.

I thought at half time both coaches would have been very happy. We were by far the better team, imposed ourselves and were in front. They had been outplayed but were close.

Absolute horror show last quarter for us. Absolutely sublime for South Africa. Well done to them I'm very fucking impressed.

The ABs were the better team for first 60.

Let’s stop this idea right here. You were in the game but you were hardly on top.

Your scrum was … under pressure, your lineout was creaking, you were losing the tactical kicking game and the aerial battle and you’d managed a solitary try (requiring 2 or 3 pieces of exceptional skill) at the cost of your playmakers taking a battering and gifting us a try. Reptitive creamings caused Least Useless Barrett to set up deeper and deeper. By the end of the half, it was hard to see where the forces of darkness might generate net points.

The good guys on the other hand could look at that half and say they just needed to keep dancing with them that brung em.

They’d bombed three clear chances without doing anything all that miraculous, one of which got called back after it was converted and another was only stopped by a sensational last gasp tackle over the try line. All while rejigging their backline to deal with injuries.

They also knew that sooner or later their work in the scrum was going to pay dividends, on the scoreboard and by opening holes around the park.

So 10-7 was a fairish reflection though not a good indicator of how the work done in the first half was likely to play out in the second.

Had a re-watch last night and I think this is a very fair assessment.

Boks dominated territory and possession in the first half. They made lots of errors, but we struggled to get out of our own half and the scrum was under major pressure from about 20 minutes onwards.

We really only got in a postion to score three times in the first half. First time - Carter did. Seond time, Billy needed to sell a dummy and give us a three on one to score - instead he threw an intercept (probably a 14 pointer). And the third time our attacking lineout shat the bed and gave away an easy exit.

Second half, nothing much went right and I suspect we paid the price for doing more defending in the first half and running out of legs - but also reverting to a bunch of low percentage plays in the last 10 minutes trying to grab a bit of respectability back. In the circumstances, bringing on Kirifi for Sititi and leaving Parker out there was "sub-optimal". Reality overtook the plan.

But after a second watch, it's the set piece at the root of the problems. Aided and abetted by some headless chickenry. We piggy-backed the boks at times, but the set piece malfunctions were often the first phase of the piggy back.

Aerial battle was lost on the back of the Boks having most of the momentum. They weren't exactly climbing in the air and catching everything - but, if you're on the front foot and going forwards, a ball that goes loose is more often than not going to bounce favourably for you.

@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Smuts said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@pakman said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I didn't watch yesterday, so knowing the score and reading the thread I actually expected much worse.

I thought at half time both coaches would have been very happy. We were by far the better team, imposed ourselves and were in front. They had been outplayed but were close.

Absolute horror show last quarter for us. Absolutely sublime for South Africa. Well done to them I'm very fucking impressed.

The ABs were the better team for first 60.

Let’s stop this idea right here. You were in the game but you were hardly on top.

Your scrum was … under pressure, your lineout was creaking, you were losing the tactical kicking game and the aerial battle and you’d managed a solitary try (requiring 2 or 3 pieces of exceptional skill) at the cost of your playmakers taking a battering and gifting us a try. Reptitive creamings caused Least Useless Barrett to set up deeper and deeper. By the end of the half, it was hard to see where the forces of darkness might generate net points.

The good guys on the other hand could look at that half and say they just needed to keep dancing with them that brung em.

They’d bombed three clear chances without doing anything all that miraculous, one of which got called back after it was converted and another was only stopped by a sensational last gasp tackle over the try line. All while rejigging their backline to deal with injuries.

They also knew that sooner or later their work in the scrum was going to pay dividends, on the scoreboard and by opening holes around the park.

So 10-7 was a fairish reflection though not a good indicator of how the work done in the first half was likely to play out in the second.

Had a re-watch last night and I think this is a very fair assessment.

Boks dominated territory and possession in the first half. They made lots of errors, but we struggled to get out of our own half and the scrum was under major pressure from about 20 minutes onwards.

We really only got in a postion to score three times in the first half. First time - Carter did. Seond time, Billy needed to sell a dummy and give us a three on one to score - instead he threw an intercept (probably a 14 pointer). And the third time our attacking lineout shat the bed and gave away an easy exit.

Second half, nothing much went right and I suspect we paid the price for doing more defending in the first half and running out of legs - but also reverting to a bunch of low percentage plays in the last 10 minutes trying to grab a bit of respectability back. In the circumstances, bringing on Kirifi for Sititi and leaving Parker out there was "sub-optimal". Reality overtook the plan.

But after a second watch, it's the set piece at the root of the problems. Aided and abetted by some headless chickenry. We piggy-backed the boks at times, but the set piece malfunctions were often the first phase of the piggy back.

Aerial battle was lost on the back of the Boks having most of the momentum. They weren't exactly climbing in the air and catching everything - but, if you're on the front foot and going forwards, a ball that goes loose is more often than not going to bounce favourably for you.

Schalk Burger had it right post-game. The Boks aerial game dominated the ABs. Every time the ball went up, you pretty much knew it would end up in Green hands, either by catching it or from an AB knock on. That was the game.

ABs compounded their misery in the set piece. First half the scrum was malfunctioning and in the second half it was the lineout that was the main issue.

You can’t win a rugby match if you can’t catch the ball and you can’t secure your own first phase possession. Add onto that an insane game plan that kicks away what little possession you have, and you have the mother of all boil overs. All that was needed was a team capable of executing the basics like the Boks and you get a result like Saturday.

Guess what every team is going to do to the ABs from now until they find a solution to their aerial woes? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist and Robertson and co need to select and coach the team to deal with the aerial barrage that they will be put under.

With the talk about the AB centres and their failure to get involved in the attack, I was reminded of this excellent Ben Smith article (the rugby analyst-turned-Bok instigator from RugbyPass, not the former AB fullback) from 2021.

The crux of the article consists of the point that Ioane’s main value in the 13-channel (his speed and acceleration) wasn’t properly used by the then coaching group of Foster, Plumtree and Mooar. Smith shows how just a few alterations – quicker service by the playmakers, straightening of the line, alternative positioning from set piece – could unlock Ioane’s attack, especially against more passive defences like the Wallabies.

The thing that stood out to me, especially, was this particular passage:

Ioane still needs to perfect his ability to this run, known as an unders line, as it is an important tool to have in his arsenal that can be applied from other set-piece play variations. If he is able to hit top speed at the right moment heading into half a gap, he will puncture the line, if not create a half-break. It will be harder at test level, but, first and foremost, clinical execution of the unders line is something Ioane doesn’t yet possess.

Peter Umaga-Jensen of the Hurricanes is currently the best centre in New Zealand at running this type of line.

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Umaga-Jensen started this play lined up at fullback, timed his run perfectly and trusted the pass would be there from his midfield partner Ngani Laumape. He steamed onto the ball against the grain, underneath the gaze of Ioane, his opposite centre, and outside the weaker defender Harry Plummer, who was at second-five.

One of the main issues with the current midfield attack isn't so much that the 13 plays a decoy role to narrow the opposition defence, but the fact that this line is very rarely anything but this, a decoy. For a decoy to work, the defence actually needs to believe that there's a threat there. A 12 who can play flat to the line and a 13 who can run a proper unders line should already ask a lot of questions to any defence.

Added to this, both Barretts need to bring more variation to their passing game, in my opinion, as well as better body positioning (playing square to the line) in order to manipulate opposition defenders. There’s still way too much shovelling going on, which won’t ever draw a defender onto you at this level, leaving the passing target to get smashed behind the gain line.

It was already a frustrating read 4 years ago but the fact that most of these issues persist to this day with different players in the 13-jersey and a wholly different coaching group is genuinely jarring.