@Bones said in Wales v All Blacks:
TMO clearly said stick with your on field decision. That Davidson went against all protocol with an absolute melt decision is not his fault.
What they say and what they mean are very different.
Davidson dutifully followed the ghost protocol.
@Mr-Fish said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Bones said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish held up before grounding is in no way the same as a knock on. The ball is grounded, that's all there is to it.
I agree with you, the ball isn't held up for long enough and it should be play on. But my point was that the TMO wasn't disputing that the ball was eventually grounded, he was saying that it was held up first. It wasn't a case that it looked held up from one angle but grounded from another.
When the referee says “I have a clear grounding”, that should be it, over.
Puts his feet up and sends a selfie to his missus saying something like “easiest job ever”. The modern TMO is the literal definition of a solution looking for a problem.
And I fucking hate those fluffybunnies.
@Bones said in Wales v All Blacks:
TMO clearly said stick with your on field decision. That Davidson went against all protocol with an absolute melt decision is not his fault.
I know that this shouldnt be a reason to consider, but then again it should be.
People are gambling on these games.
Spread betting, try scorer bets etc.
I totally understand them wanting to get things right, and wanting to protect themselves from future litigation over concussions etc.
All I ask for is consistency. And we dont have that. Not even close.
Imagine being Sam Cane watching the Autumn Internationals seeing the card roulette, non cards (Sasha) and red cards over turned in the court room.
They stole his big day from him for a tackle less egregious than those unsanctioned or deemed non reds this very Autumn.
I'd be suicidal.
@Dan54 said in Wales v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
@kidcalder said in Wales v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I would have really liked to have seen Love get a run at 10. What are they afraid of?
Thats RM jersey and BB is keepng it mediocre until he is available= no point anyone being allowed the opportunity to shine and make the changeover more complex
25 minutes to go with the game well won and they could have moved him to 10 but instead they take him off for Reece.
Was he injured or something? I thought he looked gassed in second half, seemed to lose a bit of fizz after halftime.
Razor mentioned Love had an ankle issue.
@MajorPom said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Bones said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish held up before grounding is in no way the same as a knock on. The ball is grounded, that's all there is to it.
I agree with you, the ball isn't held up for long enough and it should be play on. But my point was that the TMO wasn't disputing that the ball was eventually grounded, he was saying that it was held up first. It wasn't a case that it looked held up from one angle but grounded from another.
When the referee says “I have a clear grounding”, that should be it, over.
Puts his feet up and sends a selfie to his missus saying something like “easiest job ever”. The modern TMO is the literal definition of a solution looking for a problem.
And I fucking hate those fluffybunnies.
I'm at the same point with rugby and cricket. Umpires/Refs making mistakes is part of the sport. Best is the enemy of good.
Get rid of TMOs completely.
@MajorPom said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Kirwan disagree on the cricket. Actually think they have that pretty good It’s a slow game so doesn’t kill it.
NRL bunker has it spot on for 80-90 min matches.
I jumped onto the ashes and died of boredom watching them look for what felt like an hour looking for a sound rolling the tape forward and back.
Was painful.
One thing that stood out to me and I know it's only Wales.
But how much better we are with D Mac at 10,He kicked long mostly no dinky stupid kicks that give away possession he kicked for grass most of the time.Plus his intent to attack was always good.He was more aware of space and what was around him,
BB is gone as a test player he is not up to it anymore,If the coaches had a brain D Mac and Mounga in the 23 and no BB.
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
@Chris said in Wales v All Blacks:
One thing that stood out to me and I know it's only Wales.
But how much better we are with D Mac at 10, He kicked long mostly no dinky stupid kicks that give away possession he kicked for grass most of the time.Plus his intent to attack was always good.He was more aware of space and what was around him,
BB is gone as a test player he is not up to it anymore,If the coaches had a brain D Mac and Mounga in the 23 and no BB.
He’s not perfect but his mindset to attack makes a big difference. Love that he wants to kick long when given the chance. I think he only had one kick where I said why. But whether at 10 or 15 he wants to attack. A player like Jordan who was playing more like a 2nd fullback is far more effective when the 10 is attacking too.
@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
I thought she had an excellent first half.
The unfortunate thing is that ref’s seem to think that they have cards in their pockets so they need to use them. She succumbed to that.
In fact, I wish ref’s actually sought to get through games WITHOUT going to the pocket.
@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
I thought she had an excellent first half.
The unfortunate thing is that ref’s seem to think that they have cards in their pockets so they need to use them. She succumbed to that.
In fact, I wish ref’s actually sought to get through games WITHOUT going to the pocket.
Which of Wales' two yellow cards do you think weren't justified? They were pretty clear cut for me. If anything Plumtree was lucky to escape without a 20-minute red.
@Mr-Fish said in Wales v All Blacks:
@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
I thought she had an excellent first half.
The unfortunate thing is that ref’s seem to think that they have cards in their pockets so they need to use them. She succumbed to that.
In fact, I wish ref’s actually sought to get through games WITHOUT going to the pocket.
Which of Wales' two yellow cards do you think weren't justified? They were pretty clear cut for me. If anything Plumtree was lucky to escape without a 20-minute red.
You’ve gotten sucked into the card mindset. As an AB fan, I’d have preferred both to just be penalties.
We’d have had a better game.
Yes, I know the current rules/protocols but I personally don’t want to watch TMO bingo.
If you're making head contact, a yellow card is almost inevitable under the current climate. That's the new norm due to the various CTE issues/lawsuits - far too big a risk for WR to roll that one back.
@Mr-Fish I grant you that.
But for ‘voluntary’ penalties I’d rather ref’s kept it in their pants.
Perhaps more assertiveness along the way would help? If I were a ref I might say to the captain that the crowd didn’t come along to see me giving out cards so for God’s sake tell your players to cut the crap.
Perhaps I’m just still riled from the ludicrousness of the Codie yellow!
@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish I grant you that.
But for ‘voluntary’ penalties I’d rather ref’s kept it in their pants.
Perhaps more assertiveness along the way would help? If I were a ref I might say to the captain that the crowd didn’t come along to see me giving out cards so for God’s sake tell your players to cut the crap.
Perhaps I’m just still riled from the ludicrousness of the Codie yellow!
Teams tend to give away 'voluntary' penalties because they don't want to concede a try. As an alternative to the yellow card, how about we do something left field like award 7 point penalties for a period of time. Maybe as a one off or for 10 minutes? Anything is better than cards.
@pakman it is a subtle change of mindset in how you look at something, because I agree with you in that it seems refs/TMO are looking at every situation as a way to issue a card, almost like they have KPIs around how many cards they issue 
Why does this deserve card?
vs
How can I avoid issuing a card?
@Crazy-Horse maybe issue more PTs for professional fouls inside the 22 and allow a tap restart?
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.
@reprobate said in Wales v All Blacks:
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.
Similar to the basketball team foul threshold? Once a team reaches the penalty threshold for the half, penalties could increase to four points?
@Crazy-Horse said in Wales v All Blacks:
@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish I grant you that.
But for ‘voluntary’ penalties I’d rather ref’s kept it in their pants.
Perhaps more assertiveness along the way would help? If I were a ref I might say to the captain that the crowd didn’t come along to see me giving out cards so for God’s sake tell your players to cut the crap.
Perhaps I’m just still riled from the ludicrousness of the Codie yellow!
Teams tend to give away 'voluntary' penalties because they don't want to concede a try. As an alternative to the yellow card, how about we do something left field like award 7 point penalties for a period of time. Maybe as a one off or for 10 minutes? Anything is better than cards.
Not sure what you mean by "for a period of time". Please explain ...
Brainstorming an option how about automatic three points with PK restart on halfway?
@taniwharugby said in Wales v All Blacks:
@pakman it is a subtle change of mindset in how you look at something, because I agree with you in that it seems refs/TMO are looking at every situation as a way to issue a card, almost like they have KPIs around how many cards they issue
Why does this deserve card?
vs
How can I avoid issuing a card?@Crazy-Horse maybe issue more PTs for professional fouls inside the 22 and allow a tap restart?
Didn't read this when I posted the above. Kindof #booboo.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in Wales v All Blacks:
@reprobate said in Wales v All Blacks:
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.Similar to the basketball team foul threshold? Once a team reaches the penalty threshold for the half, penalties could increase to four points?
Interesting idea. I'm pretty sure the average number of penalties per game for different refs would be quite different - so with some refs it would be worthwhile, with others not. Which may be a problem, maybe not.
A penalty needs to be attractive enough vs a try for the attacking team to consider kicking it, and enough of a deterrent for the defending team to stop infringing. Removing the repeat infringements card would remove some of the 'keep playing for more penalties and a card' motivation, but the deterrent needs to be stronger.
I'm also sick of playing under 40m advantage until a try is scored. It makes heaps of amazing defensive plays worthless.
Just keep it to 3 points and a goal line drop out restart might work?
@reprobate said in Wales v All Blacks:
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.
Thugs can be dealt with good old red cards. Deliberate cheats maybe look at variation of penalty try. So if in 22 automatic 3 and if within 5m automatic 5?
@reprobate Just brainstorming here but how about advancing the mark for the penalty 10 or 20 metres for repeat offending?
Or (this is very random) five minute power plays - the non-offending team receives more points for tries, drop goals and penalties within the time period, handling errors by the non-offending team result in a free kick to that team, rather than a scrum to the defending team, the non-offending team are allowed an extra stoppage for mauls, that sort of random stuff. I haven't thought that through at all but it popped into my head.
@ShaquilleOatmeal I like your thinking in some ways, but will admit ti not liking another system that will just cause arguments.
or, and i know it's a crazy idea but, how about when the ref says "i have repeatedly penalised you for laying in the ruck to slow the ball down, next time someone goes" the other team says okay you got me, and stops doing that? Wales were fucking lucky not to get one in the first half with their first warning. She then gave another warning in the 2nd half before old mate got sent.
I actually thought the high shot yellow was more dodgy as it was one of those ones where the head contact was the whiplash effect rather than shoulder to jaw. Not the tacklers fault, it's DMacs for selling his mate out.
@taniwharugby said in Wales v All Blacks:
@booboo maybe extend it to a tap restart, or allow them to kick for touch from the restart, meaning they are right back in the red zone on attack.
Yeah. What I meant. A PK on the half to restart. Gives the option of a tap, kick to touch, or shot at goal.
I'm averse to solutions which are more complex to administer and more subjective than the current state.
They won't bring back rucking so the problem obviously doesn't solve itself.
And you can't put in place a solution that removes the contest at rucks.
For me the simplest solution is to insist players from either side have to stay on their fucking feet.
Infringement which stops a try being scored = YC
If a try is scored = carry on, No YC
I hate it when there’s a Penalty Try and YC
@taniwharugby said in Wales v All Blacks:
@booboo currently, awarding a pen on halfway from the restart is in the ref's arsenal, but cant recall the last time I saw it.
Is it viewed any differently to a normal penalty?
I mean if you have a kicker able to knock it over, 10 points should be a bigger dis-incentive to infringe.
Penalty on halfway is, as far as I know, for illegality in the act of scoring, or thereafter. We're talking about strengthening the sanction for cynical professional foul.
Guarantee 3 points, 10min sin bin, and opportunity to kick to 22/kick at goal/tap and go/scrum should be quite the disincentive.
@MiketheSnow said in Wales v All Blacks:
Penalty Try and YC
Isn't that required if there's a PT.
(Ireland should have been down to 11.)
@booboo said in Wales v All Blacks:
@MiketheSnow said in Wales v All Blacks:
Penalty Try and YC
Isn't that required if there's a PT.
(Ireland should have been down to 11.)
Yeah
But doesn’t make sense
Ref has awarded 7 pts
That should be enough
@MiketheSnow well yeah but they've done that because a try probably would have been scored.
@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I'm averse to solutions which are more complex to administer and more subjective than the current state.
Yeah, keep it simple.
If the ref deems a defender to have deliberately infringed, just get him to stand out of play (side line, db line), and he come back on when possession changes (when the attacking makes a mistake, or scores).
Might even clean the rucks up a bit, if they know they can get outed quick and simple.
@booboo said in Wales v All Blacks:
Isn't that required if there's a PT.
I think it is at the refs discretion.
@MiketheSnow said in Wales v All Blacks:
I hate it when there’s a Penalty Try and YC
Mmm, that's like kicking someone when they are down.
A double whammy.
