@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

Ah, South Africans on the panel are there? Poor old Eben.

Actually, I don't believe so.

Well that's good if so. Intent is a very hard thing to prove or disprove in this situation I would have thought - but really my opinion is as simple as: if you make the decision to attack someone's face, well, that's where their fucking eyes are - and that makes it deliberate.

Not sure if that would make for a fair process though. Accidental contact with the eyes is different than deliberate obviously. This could be a career defining issue for him not to mention the money he will likely lose. I find it hard to believe that he went after his eyes.

My point is that if you can't judge intent accurately - which in most cases you can't - then you need to choose to sanction without regard for it - all deliberate or all accidental.
My preference would be to treat it all as deliberate, unless the player isn't in a position to see that it is a face they are targeting. As soon as it is a face and they know it, fuck 'em all off.

Except now you have to make a discernment on whether the player can see the other players face or not. Look, I wish it were as simple as you would like it to be, but it isn’t. These players earn a living playing the game. They deserve a fair “trial”

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

Ah, South Africans on the panel are there? Poor old Eben.

Isn't there a pretty strong rumour the one saying it unintentional is Welsh?

@taniwharugby said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate looking at his facial expression while his thumb was in the eye would seem he was very angry and intent on something....regardless of the level of punishment for Eben, watch WR fuck this one up.

The whole carding and judiciary process is a joke and needs an overhaul, including the TMO.

How does it get overhauled? I not sure it's ideal, but have not a lot of ideas (that wouldn't get shot to pieces), so would love to hear ideas being discussed.

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

Ah, South Africans on the panel are there? Poor old Eben.

Actually, I don't believe so.

Well that's good if so. Intent is a very hard thing to prove or disprove in this situation I would have thought - but really my opinion is as simple as: if you make the decision to attack someone's face, well, that's where their fucking eyes are - and that makes it deliberate.

Not sure if that would make for a fair process though. Accidental contact with the eyes is different than deliberate obviously. This could be a career defining issue for him not to mention the money he will likely lose. I find it hard to believe that he went after his eyes.

My point is that if you can't judge intent accurately - which in most cases you can't - then you need to choose to sanction without regard for it - all deliberate or all accidental.
My preference would be to treat it all as deliberate, unless the player isn't in a position to see that it is a face they are targeting. As soon as it is a face and they know it, fuck 'em all off.

Except now you have to make a discernment on whether the player can see the other players face or not. Look, I wish it were as simple as you would like it to be, but it isn’t. These players earn a living playing the game. They deserve a fair “trial”

Line of sight is a shitload easier for an outside observer to judge than the evil in Eben's heart mate.
If it is known that the face is off limits, then what wouldn't be fair about it?

@Dan54 point is, the system seems broken, wildly inconsistent, these people at WR have the tools and resources to find better more consistent ways to deal with it.

Sure, no.model will be perfect, but right now, it is a long way from where it should be for a professional organisation.

if you put your thumb in someone's eye and keep pushing then you're a fluffybunny. Trying to work out what he was thinking or went through his thick roided head before during and after is about as irrelevant as what colour his underpants were.

Downvote

Apparently the All Blacks' self-styled spiritual leader provided a "character testimony" for Etzebeth.

So because they share an agent and pray together, one of them can commit assault against a third person with reduced consequences. Utter, utter bollocks.

Shameful.

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

Ah, South Africans on the panel are there? Poor old Eben.

Actually, I don't believe so.

Well that's good if so. Intent is a very hard thing to prove or disprove in this situation I would have thought - but really my opinion is as simple as: if you make the decision to attack someone's face, well, that's where their fucking eyes are - and that makes it deliberate.

Not sure if that would make for a fair process though. Accidental contact with the eyes is different than deliberate obviously. This could be a career defining issue for him not to mention the money he will likely lose. I find it hard to believe that he went after his eyes.

Well he pushed his thumb hard into his eye socket while looking straight at the players face.

I find it hard to believe he had any other intention other than going for his eyes.

Do we know how long is thumb was in his eye for?

@sparky said in Bokke vs Wales:

Apparently the All Blacks' self-styled spiritual leader provided a "character testimony" for Etzebeth.

So because they share an agent and pray together, one of them can commit assault against a third person with reduced consequences. Utter, utter bollocks.

Shameful.

Seriously? Why would that even come into consideration?

First BB helps out someone who smacks him in the head and now Savea doing this.

Stop fluffing the boks. Stop being the nice guys of a gladiatoral sport.

Stop acting like pussies and get angry that everyone now thinks we are pussies

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@Toddy said in Bokke vs Wales:

Didn't Owen Franks get away with an eye gouge? Against the Wallabies??

Yep.

View embedded content

Er...no. There was no citing by either team after the Wobblie forward involved said it was entirely accidental, IIRC

@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:

@sparky said in Bokke vs Wales:

Apparently the All Blacks' self-styled spiritual leader provided a "character testimony" for Etzebeth.

So because they share an agent and pray together, one of them can commit assault against a third person with reduced consequences. Utter, utter bollocks.

Shameful.

Seriously? Why would that even come into consideration?

First BB helps out someone who smacks him in the head and now Savea doing this.

Stop fluffing the boks. Stop being the nice guys of a gladiatoral sport.

Stop acting like pussies and get angry that everyone now thinks we are pussies

Always been done Grubs. hell I have even given a character reference at a rugby judiciary hearing in Brisbane and at Levin only at club level of course. I recall Sam T (Nua ,you know him)doing exactly same for an Auckland player after Nua -Auckland shield match, well that wasn't a character one. more just bullshitted that what happened never really happened.
Like in normal court, I not sure it makes a difference, and I have supplied one there too, you not actually defending the actions, just how you find the person from your dealings with him.
It's not unusual, hell it has happened when Abs etc go up for too. Whether it actually makes a difference, I not sure.
I always used to laugh, Brad Thorn always publicly spoke up for Bakkies Botha, a lot of players did, reckoned that off field he was great joker etc, hell I even heard Phil Kearns among others say same about Richard Loe, who let's face it if we honest made Botha, Estebeth etc look angels!

@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:

@sparky said in Bokke vs Wales:

Apparently the All Blacks' self-styled spiritual leader provided a "character testimony" for Etzebeth.

So because they share an agent and pray together, one of them can commit assault against a third person with reduced consequences. Utter, utter bollocks.

Shameful.

Seriously? Why would that even come into consideration?

First BB helps out someone who smacks him in the head and now Savea doing this.

Stop fluffing the boks. Stop being the nice guys of a gladiatoral sport.

Stop acting like pussies and get angry that everyone now thinks we are pussies

i dont have a problem with BB....because he was actually involved, first hand he can talk about the atmosphere and if he thinks its was deliberate.....no idea why savea is getting involved, he wasn't on the pitch

@Kiwiwomble said in Bokke vs Wales:

@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:

@sparky said in Bokke vs Wales:

Apparently the All Blacks' self-styled spiritual leader provided a "character testimony" for Etzebeth.

So because they share an agent and pray together, one of them can commit assault against a third person with reduced consequences. Utter, utter bollocks.

Shameful.

Seriously? Why would that even come into consideration?

First BB helps out someone who smacks him in the head and now Savea doing this.

Stop fluffing the boks. Stop being the nice guys of a gladiatoral sport.

Stop acting like pussies and get angry that everyone now thinks we are pussies

i dont have a problem with BB....because he was actually involved, first hand he can talk about the atmosphere and if he thinks its was deliberate.....no idea why savea is getting involved, he wasn't on the pitch

Cos he’s a really big deal in Social Media. Have you seen his Insta ?

@MN5 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@Kiwiwomble said in Bokke vs Wales:

@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:

@sparky said in Bokke vs Wales:

Apparently the All Blacks' self-styled spiritual leader provided a "character testimony" for Etzebeth.

So because they share an agent and pray together, one of them can commit assault against a third person with reduced consequences. Utter, utter bollocks.

Shameful.

Seriously? Why would that even come into consideration?

First BB helps out someone who smacks him in the head and now Savea doing this.

Stop fluffing the boks. Stop being the nice guys of a gladiatoral sport.

Stop acting like pussies and get angry that everyone now thinks we are pussies

i dont have a problem with BB....because he was actually involved, first hand he can talk about the atmosphere and if he thinks its was deliberate.....no idea why savea is getting involved, he wasn't on the pitch

Cos he’s a really big deal in Social Media. Have you seen his Insta ?

i should rephrase.....i think i know WHY....i dont think he SHOULD

April 18. Ospreys vs Sharks. Physical price.

The All Blacks are a bunch of fucking cats.

But even above that, why the fuck does a character reference from someone who wasn't even playing come in to it.

@mariner4life Mana

@mariner4life yeah, a character witness for a major sporting personality seems weird....there are hundreds of hours of footage where people can see for themselves what kind of person he is....if hes a different person behind closed doors.....then it kind of makes it worse

@mariner4life also begs the question, how did it come to Ardie to be the 'character witness'?

Did Eben text Ardie and say 'hey bru, I nd u 2 say gd stf 4 me' or did Ardie offer his power from the goodness of his heart?

God I miss Dane Coles

@taniwharugby Kolisi is best mates with Etzebeth so would have asked St Ardie.

@taniwharugby said in Bokke vs Wales:

also begs the question, how did it come to Ardie to be the 'character witness'?

Did Eben text Ardie and say 'hey bru, I nd u 2 say gd stf 4 me' or did Ardie offer his power from the goodness of his heart?

Yeah, love to know the process that brought it all about.
Same as BB.
Almost seems like they are volunteering themselves (rather than being asked) to "help out."

If they are volunteering themselves, that is starting to show us something of the current "AB culture."
That'd be a bit too "huggy" for my liking.

@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:

Do we know how long is thumb was in his eye for?

I thought I read they decided it was in or near his eye / eye socket for one second but I can't find that article now.

@Kiwiwomble said in Bokke vs Wales:

@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:

@sparky said in Bokke vs Wales:

Apparently the All Blacks' self-styled spiritual leader provided a "character testimony" for Etzebeth.

So because they share an agent and pray together, one of them can commit assault against a third person with reduced consequences. Utter, utter bollocks.

Shameful.

Seriously? Why would that even come into consideration?

First BB helps out someone who smacks him in the head and now Savea doing this.

Stop fluffing the boks. Stop being the nice guys of a gladiatoral sport.

Stop acting like pussies and get angry that everyone now thinks we are pussies

i dont have a problem with BB....because he was actually involved, first hand he can talk about the atmosphere and if he thinks its was deliberate.....no idea why savea is getting involved, he wasn't on the pitch

You obviously don't understand what a character reference is mate. It is no way to do with incident, only your dealings with the person in general.
I once got asked to give (and did) a reference to someone who had was going up and pleading guilty to a robbery. Basically saying in your dealings with the person, do you consider this normal behavior for the person (that's simplistic I know)
Have also been asked for character references (as well as normal ones) for people seeking jobs that needed them as part of clearance.

I really staggered that you lot are getting shitty that Ardie put in character reference, for all you know he could of said that he thought it kind of thing he expected from Estebeth and was hoping he would get life!! Might of even been reason he was found guilty!:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Actually just read the written decision, and see how they came to their conclusion. Also @nostrildamus that is where it says they worked out his finger was in or around eye for 1 second.
' Doing the best we can we
calculated that the Player’s thumb was in W7’s eye for something in the region of a second, in real time.'

Also pleased to read the suspension was actually longer than 12 weeks, they checked his playing schedule to make sure it 12 games.

One second is easily long enough for it to be both intentional and do serious damage. 12 weeks is pathetic lol.

@Dan54 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@Kiwiwomble said in Bokke vs Wales:

@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:

@sparky said in Bokke vs Wales:

Apparently the All Blacks' self-styled spiritual leader provided a "character testimony" for Etzebeth.

So because they share an agent and pray together, one of them can commit assault against a third person with reduced consequences. Utter, utter bollocks.

Shameful.

Seriously? Why would that even come into consideration?

First BB helps out someone who smacks him in the head and now Savea doing this.

Stop fluffing the boks. Stop being the nice guys of a gladiatoral sport.

Stop acting like pussies and get angry that everyone now thinks we are pussies

i dont have a problem with BB....because he was actually involved, first hand he can talk about the atmosphere and if he thinks its was deliberate.....no idea why savea is getting involved, he wasn't on the pitch

You obviously don't understand what a character reference is mate. It is no way to do with incident, only your dealings with the person in general.
I once got asked to give (and did) a reference to someone who had was going up and pleading guilty to a robbery. Basically saying in your dealings with the person, do you consider this normal behavior for the person (that's simplistic I know)
Have also been asked for character references (as well as normal ones) for people seeking jobs that needed them as part of clearance.

yeah, might have been poorly worded, i do understand and have done it myself several times in sporting tribunals, i explain a bit more about why i found it weird further down the thread, where ive done it and seen it done is more where those making judgement dont know anything about the person in question and so youre explaining what theyre like out of the situations theyre being judged on, the majority of the time savea and he interact has to be around rugby.....if youre giving a reference around what hes like off the field then he has to have a long list of people he knows and spends time with that arent famous rugby players....this just stinks of getting a big name to sway things

@Dodge said in Bokke vs Wales:

if you put your thumb in someone's eye and keep pushing then you're a fluffybunny. Trying to work out what he was thinking or went through his thick roided head before during and after is about as irrelevant as what colour his underpants were.

You’re just being silly now. Finger near eye for ~ 1 second. No injury occurred. As for roids, well didn’t figure you for falling into stereotypes but I suppose you’re entitled to your opinion.

Look, I pretty pissed off with what Estebeth did, read my first post on it, and happy if he had got huge suspension.
But a few are getting into fluffybunny territory with Ardie (or it seems any ABs) shouldn't give character references , and BB shouldn't of said what everyone could see, that the Irish fella had no time to react etc.
What the f*** is it, if it not an AB we want everyone hung etc. The judiciary have given a bloody complete report of the whole process, who they listened to, and reasons for giving him the 12 weeks , and why he didn't get time off etc. They even suggest just maybe the ref while being correct in his RC etc, perhaps missed something by only having one view of the screen etc. The bottom line is he deserved everything he got in suspension, but to suggest he was having a few digs at his eyes etc (in 1 second?) is just rubbish.
Put away your nooses fellas, it all been sorted.

One thing is for sure. There's no way Dalton Papalii woulda given Etzebeth a character reference. He focuses on his core roles in Rugby. Not his instagram.

@MN5 said in Bokke vs Wales:

One thing is for sure. There's no way Dalton Papalii woulda given Etzebeth a character reference. He focuses on his core roles in Rugby. Not his instagram.

Too busy headbutting Razor

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

You are assuming he went for the eye intentionally.

Yes. Yes I am.

(I do suspect he was on the receiving end first up, but no excuse for me.)

@Toddy said in Bokke vs Wales:

Didn't Owen Franks get away with an eye gouge? Against the Wallabies??

If I recall the finger(s) didn't go in the eye(s).

This of course excuses Etzebeth entirely.

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:

@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:

Ah, South Africans on the panel are there? Poor old Eben.

Actually, I don't believe so.

Well that's good if so. Intent is a very hard thing to prove or disprove in this situation I would have thought - but really my opinion is as simple as: if you make the decision to attack someone's face, well, that's where their fucking eyes are - and that makes it deliberate.

Not sure if that would make for a fair process though. Accidental contact with the eyes is different than deliberate obviously. This could be a career defining issue for him not to mention the money he will likely lose. I find it hard to believe that he went after his eyes.

Accidental? Take the green and gold eyepatch off.

@game_film said in Bokke vs Wales:

April 18. Ospreys vs Sharks. Physical price.

Mann plays for Cardiff