@booboo said in Bokke vs Wales:
I, up until a week ago, had a grudging admiration for Etsebeth.
Two time RWC winner, probably the best lock in the World for most of his career.
A genuine Great of the game.
He is no more. A thuggish scum.
A sad way to end his career as Richard Loe Lite.
Be gone from international rugby and make it a better place.
“Richard Loe lite” lol. Even in foul play, the springboks can’t match the ABs. Brilliant sentence spacing for effect BTW.
@DaGrubster the way I heard it, the 2007 game that didnt happen broke Jerry.
@booboo said in Bokke vs Wales:
I'm not fussed about a character reference given by an All Black.
I am fussed that the process sees a place where a character reference is appropriate to determine a ban in a sporting contest.
On one hand punters scream about how amateur world rugby is and how badly it is run, but when a fair trial is used to determine the outcome of an alleged crime, the same punters squeal that character references shouldn't be given in support of a persons character. So which is it then? Should it be the good old boy process where its all based on what the citing/banning commision feels, or a professional process where evidence, character reference and an impartial jury/judge decides the fate?
In any event, the punishment seems fair.
@Jet said in Bokke vs Wales:
@OomPB said in Bokke vs Wales:
@Dan54 Jerry Collins and the other Bok eye doctor.
That makes me sad to watch.
There were proud men wearing the black jerseys in those days.
Not a backward step was taken.
Current crop are too accustomed to being well liked, valiant losers.
Ah yes, the plucky pom model. At least you have the moral high ground mate!
@OomPB said in Bokke vs Wales:
@Dan54 Jerry Collins and the other Bok eye doctor.
Yep remember seeing that interview. I always remember a super match in Palmerston North, they seemed to be enjoying smacking into each other. And the other thing I will always remember, I had taken my daughter and grandsons to match, after the game, we were around outside the gate at the back of stands, with a few Saffa supporters. Players were meant to be going upstairs for a aftermatch thing, and Burgher saw the kids etc outside gate, stuck his head back in changing sheds, and most of players from both teams came out to say hello to kids and supporters etc. And I was impressed after what I saw on field how genuinely good mates Burgher and Collins were or seemed to be. Stormers won the game too if I remember rightly.
@Jet said in Bokke vs Wales:
@OomPB said in Bokke vs Wales:
@Dan54 Jerry Collins and the other Bok eye doctor.
That makes me sad to watch.
There were proud men wearing the black jerseys in those days.
Not a backward step was taken.
Current crop are too accustomed to being well liked, valiant losers.
Read my thing above, it's a lot of crap, the players were exactly the same then as now.
Some seem to have this strange memory of ABs always have been these silent hard men etc. They have in my experience always been pretty good at getting on with opposition, hell and that's going well back, Colin Meads and Brian Lochore (in 60s) are 2 I have personally heard saying how they used to be pretty good mates with opposition, and actually would visit players with their families .
@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:
@Dan54 said in Bokke vs Wales:
@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:
@Dan54 said in Bokke vs Wales:
@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:
@Dan54 said in Bokke vs Wales:
@DaGrubster said in Bokke vs Wales:
@sparky said in Bokke vs Wales:
Apparently the All Blacks' self-styled spiritual leader provided a "character testimony" for Etzebeth.
So because they share an agent and pray together, one of them can commit assault against a third person with reduced consequences. Utter, utter bollocks.
Shameful.
Seriously? Why would that even come into consideration?
First BB helps out someone who smacks him in the head and now Savea doing this.
Stop fluffing the boks. Stop being the nice guys of a gladiatoral sport.
Stop acting like pussies and get angry that everyone now thinks we are pussies
Always been done Grubs. hell I have even given a character reference at a rugby judiciary hearing in Brisbane and at Levin only at club level of course. I recall Sam T (Nua ,you know him)doing exactly same for an Auckland player after Nua -Auckland shield match, well that wasn't a character one. more just bullshitted that what happened never really happened.
Like in normal court, I not sure it makes a difference, and I have supplied one there too, you not actually defending the actions, just how you find the person from your dealings with him.
It's not unusual, hell it has happened when Abs etc go up for too. Whether it actually makes a difference, I not sure.
I always used to laugh, Brad Thorn always publicly spoke up for Bakkies Botha, a lot of players did, reckoned that off field he was great joker etc, hell I even heard Phil Kearns among others say same about Richard Loe, who let's face it if we honest made Botha, Estebeth etc look angels!Yeah, i know but why would Savea do it, why fucking bother?
Savea should be distancing himself from this henious act, not give a glowing reference.
Nice guys in rugby finish last. Or get whooped by record scores and know they will still be in the team the next week.
Im angry! No wonder we fall apart on the field when put under a bit of pressure
You ever stop to think Grubs, just maybe off the field they mates? What was in the glowing reference that has got you so upset? (I admit I haven't faintest idea what was written).If you genuinely believe we fall apart because they mates off field, you must of hated the likes of Jerry Collins, Tana Umaga, Brad Thorn, Buck Shelford etc who were real proud to be mates with opposition off field. I just don't get the Ardie hate, although I note it's trendy on here last few months.
Mate. I very rarely stop to think!
I just dont see why a senior All Black provides a character reference to a senior springbok.
In isolation it may seem an over the top reaction but it seems the AB culture is too nice these days and not ruthless enough (i know it isn't conclusive proof but its just a feeling and may come across as irrational).
We look to be very un-All Black like on the field and wilt under pressure badly at times. And we appear very un all black like off the field. I know times change and there is a much larger PI influence in the squad (and that brings a different element - not a criticism at all, just an observation) to but it just feels we have lost that connection to the AB legacy, culture and an absolute ruthless approach to becoming the best side again.
Last time Savea played the boks he was part of a record AB loss. Now he is rushing to their aid to help them.
Fuck them. Dont give them anything. Whats bad for them is good for us. It should burn inside that we lost to them like we did in Wellington and Savea should be setting that tone as a senior AB and probable captain next year.
I know i am old school but when we tour there next year, the boks will see this as a chance to humiliate the All Blacks. And they will be laser focussed on doing just that. We have lost that attitude.
Ramblings over.
There in perhaps lies the difference mate. When we play the Boks (or any team) I want them to have every player they can available. I want us to beat the best, not what's left over. I want no excuses when we win or lose.
I old fashioned like that, have never found it as enjoyable when we beat teams shorn of players through injury or suspension etc. Also old school enough to love the fact that after the game has finshed players are great mates. And I don't judge how hard we are as players off the field, only on it.
See stories like Umaga and George Gregan deciding they were going to play rugby together at a club while having a beer in a pub after a test there. And as I said Jerry Collins was real stoked to be mates with many he played against, always said he often caught up with opposition player in super at airports as they crossed paths, and they always had beer s etc.
Mind you I never agree with them mixing with opposition before a game under any circumstances (that is at any level), but after and off the field I really like they are mates.And to top it off, as I said, I would of been happy if he got a year or so, but think 12 weeks is probably fair anyway. Shit act, but no injury, and it still twice as long as that prick Swain got for putting out Quinn Tupaea for best part of a year! Remember Hore smacking Bradley Davies from behind laying him out and putting him in hospital?
He got a few weeks, Welsh coach (Gatland) was in press saying he thought it was accidental.You’re are missing the point. I dont think Etzebeth was in danger of being banned for AB matches and the ban was what i was expecting.
Its about a deeper maliase that is coming into the ABs.
Nice guys off the field. Now seemingly nice to play against on the field.
You talk about the late great jerry Collins.
After losing a test match, i beat he would be have been horrible to train against and with. Just cant see that with Ardie
Yep you get my point Grubs ,I want Estebeth playing against us next year , if he is still their best player. I don't want us to play anything but the best team they can field. And genuinely if you really think he was going to be stood down until August next year, (if Ardie hadn't given a character reference) I am surprised.
And on Jerry Collins, or Buck Shelford etc, I bet none of them would prefer to play a team without their best players because they were stood down etc.
Just out of interest, who has read the judgement? It seems the Welsh manager's report says they didn't even get their Dr to check Mann's eye? It happened right on fulltime more or less and they they didn't even get the Dr to check his eye for damage?? Something not right there if he had been eye gouged surely? Just check his eye at least , just to make sure.
@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:
@booboo said in Bokke vs Wales:
I'm not fussed about a character reference given by an All Black.
I am fussed that the process sees a place where a character reference is appropriate to determine a ban in a sporting contest.
On one hand punters scream about how amateur world rugby is and how badly it is run, but when a fair trial is used to determine the outcome of an alleged crime, the same punters squeal that character references shouldn't be given in support of a persons character. So which is it then? Should it be the good old boy process where its all based on what the citing/banning commision feels, or a professional process where evidence, character reference and an impartial jury/judge decides the fate?
In any event, the punishment seems fair.
Yeah, character references are used all time at sentencing in the real world, don’t know why rugby should be different, especially now it's a pro game.
@Crazy-Horse said in Bokke vs Wales:
@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:
@booboo said in Bokke vs Wales:
I'm not fussed about a character reference given by an All Black.
I am fussed that the process sees a place where a character reference is appropriate to determine a ban in a sporting contest.
On one hand punters scream about how amateur world rugby is and how badly it is run, but when a fair trial is used to determine the outcome of an alleged crime, the same punters squeal that character references shouldn't be given in support of a persons character. So which is it then? Should it be the good old boy process where its all based on what the citing/banning commision feels, or a professional process where evidence, character reference and an impartial jury/judge decides the fate?
In any event, the punishment seems fair.
Yeah, character references are used all time at sentencing in the real world, don’t know why rugby should be different, especially now it's a pro game.
He's played 140 tests, and countless games at lower levels, all very public.
Is that not a bit different from a random member of the public who nobody involved in sentencing has ever heard of before?
@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:
@Crazy-Horse said in Bokke vs Wales:
@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:
@booboo said in Bokke vs Wales:
I'm not fussed about a character reference given by an All Black.
I am fussed that the process sees a place where a character reference is appropriate to determine a ban in a sporting contest.
On one hand punters scream about how amateur world rugby is and how badly it is run, but when a fair trial is used to determine the outcome of an alleged crime, the same punters squeal that character references shouldn't be given in support of a persons character. So which is it then? Should it be the good old boy process where its all based on what the citing/banning commision feels, or a professional process where evidence, character reference and an impartial jury/judge decides the fate?
In any event, the punishment seems fair.
Yeah, character references are used all time at sentencing in the real world, don’t know why rugby should be different, especially now it's a pro game.
He's played 140 tests, and countless games at lower levels, all very public.
Is that not a bit different from a random member of the public who nobody involved in sentencing has ever heard of before?
I guess if they are debating whether an act was intentional a character reference would have some benefit. I don't see it as being all that different.
@Dan54 and that is one of the things so many love about rugby and will often point to differentiating from football...spend 80 mins trying to smack each other, then have beers together: the old 'thugs game played by gentlemen'
I think there was a period in the 2000's where it seemed that the mingling post-match wasnt happening, and was it Chieka who seemed to discourage it.
@Dan54 said in Bokke vs Wales:
Just out of interest, who has read the judgement? It seems the Welsh manager's report says they didn't even get their Dr to check Mann's eye? It happened right on fulltime more or less and they they didn't even get the Dr to check his eye for damage?? Something not right there if he had been eye gouged surely? Just check his eye at least , just to make sure.
That is odd
And smacks of amateur WRU
@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:
@booboo said in Bokke vs Wales:
I, up until a week ago, had a grudging admiration for Etsebeth.
Two time RWC winner, probably the best lock in the World for most of his career.
A genuine Great of the game.
He is no more. A thuggish scum.
A sad way to end his career as Richard Loe Lite.
Be gone from international rugby and make it a better place.
“Richard Loe lite” lol. Even in foul pla6bJY26sp9ueFCAyVq1c5YGy, the springboks can’t match the ABs. Brilliant sentence spacing for effect BTW.
Wanted to present it simplistic enough that even morans understand.
Work for you?
This thread has certainly gone on longer than expected. I can see via the quoted replied that W32 ,(although blocked by me), appears to doing a good job in winding posters up
Don't feed the troll.
@booboo said in Bokke vs Wales:
@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:
@booboo said in Bokke vs Wales:
I, up until a week ago, had a grudging admiration for Etsebeth.
Two time RWC winner, probably the best lock in the World for most of his career.
A genuine Great of the game.
He is no more. A thuggish scum.
A sad way to end his career as Richard Loe Lite.
Be gone from international rugby and make it a better place.
“Richard Loe lite” lol. Even in foul pla6bJY26sp9ueFCAyVq1c5YGy, the springboks can’t match the ABs. Brilliant sentence spacing for effect BTW.
Wanted to present it simplistic enough that even morans understand.
Work for you?
Has your sense of humor deserted you? A few weeks back you were insulting all things South African, and now a casual bit of banter sends you over the top.
@Frank said in Bokke vs Wales:
This thread has certainly gone on longer than expected. I can see via the quoted replied that W32 ,(although blocked by me), appears to doing a good job in winding posters up
Don't feed the troll.
I’m sure you will find a way to read what I’m writing here @frank, - the “look at me everyone, I’ve blocked this user because I’m the bigger man” is just really lame. Certainly I disagree with a lot of your views but taking my ball and going home never occurred to me.
Not sure if this should be in a different thread at this point, but it was interesting what Nigel Owen’s had to say. Etsebeth not a dirty player, but lucky. And the process is broken
This won’t change the haters minds, but confirms what many have said all along. Reckless but not intentional.
@W32 The only thing that confirms is your confirmation bias mate.
It may well have been unintentional, but the guy who did it saying so is hardly proof - the truth is we can't know whether it was an accident or he just lost the plot briefly. Either way, if you don't throw your hands in someone's face, you don't hit their eyes.
@Frank said in Bokke vs Wales:
This thread has certainly gone on longer than expected.
Fuck yeah!
May as well have my say.
A bit of a brain fade/explosion, recklessness/carelessness/stoopidness, call it what ever you want,
By a great player, just about "done" in the big-time.
At the end of a nothing game,
Quite happy to let the "process" deal with it.
The length of the "process" was of note tho.
But still, not as long as this thread!
And the Welsh medical staff, apparently, didn't even investigate!
Probably the most telling factor.
Only slight concern was . . . Eben's record can speak for itself . . . dont need no f'ing AB doing that for him!
And red card had zero affect on the game.
@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:
@W32 The only thing that confirms is your confirmation bias mate.
It may well have been unintentional, but the guy who did it saying so is hardly proof - the truth is we can't know whether it was an accident or he just lost the plot briefly. Either way, if you don't throw your hands in someone's face, you don't hit their eyes.
Back at ya! Also: irony.
@W32 said in Bokke vs Wales:
@reprobate said in Bokke vs Wales:
@W32 The only thing that confirms is your confirmation bias mate.
It may well have been unintentional, but the guy who did it saying so is hardly proof - the truth is we can't know whether it was an accident or he just lost the plot briefly. Either way, if you don't throw your hands in someone's face, you don't hit their eyes.Back at ya! Also: irony.
Well, not really mate. You're converted and I'm agnostic.
