@African-Monkey said in Blues v Drua:

we've had to come from behind in both of them, which I don't mind. The young fellas have stepped up to the plate when asked so far.

This year and next are transition years. We have a punchers chance of winning the tournament but we probably lack the depth to arrive at the finals in good shape

Still, the new players are going better than I expected. Yes young players will make more errors but it's been really fun to watch the progress. I don't understand how anyone could watch the Vai try and complain about the celebration haha

@Duluth said in Blues v Drua:

@African-Monkey said in Blues v Drua:

we've had to come from behind in both of them, which I don't mind. The young fellas have stepped up to the plate when asked so far.

This year and next are transition years. We have a punchers chance of winning the tournament but we probably lack the depth to arrive at the finals in good shape

Still, the new players are going better than I expected. Yes young players will make more errors but it's been really fun to watch the progress. I don't understand how anyone could watch the Vai try and complain about the celebration haha

Yeah I've said the same too about a rebuild. It won't last as long as previous ones. The title? I wasn't even thinking about it for the next couple of seasons at least, but with no one really standing out (will put the Canes as favourites if they smoke the bigger sides), then maybe we're an outside shot?

We have a very good style for wet weather and finals style football. If we can keep the injuries down we'll be hard to beat.

Spencer gets 'only there for his name' and 'might be worth persevering with' when I reckon he played better than Barrett...?
Gotta say I find it pretty weird that our most capped current AB can put in an error ridden shit performance like that and it be so commonplace that it hardly rates a comment, while an all but debutant at super level is getting a hard time.

@reprobate thought he looked a very similar player to Reihana, but with express pace.

@Bones yeah couple of nice touches, looking for space and using the ball, one good take under the high ball, and quick. Couple of errors too, but not to the extent that you'd mistake him for an AB legend eh?

@reprobate needs to show a lot more in the "under pressure dribbled pass behind an unexpectant support player" and "cross kick to the opposition or stands on the full" departments.

Not sure what you guys are watching but BB is playing well. Much more physical this year (a genuine concern last year where he looked like he was avoiding contact), defending often up in the line, looks quick, is kicking long and is setting up his outside backs great.

Highlight was the 90m try he set up a few games ago in the final minutes, again with his pace, creating space, drawing the defence.

He gets a lot of shit for the up and unders, but he's clearly what Vern wants him to do. Vern describes them after the game as a type of linebreak.

@Kirwan said in Blues v Drua:

Much more physical this year (a genuine concern last year where he looked like he was avoiding contact)

That's a bit misleading - he is still avoiding contact ball in hand - big time. There are times when he should run (and he would run earlier in his career) and he simply won't. I dont think that's going to change for the rest of his career.

I have been impressed by his willingness to use his body in defence and at the breakdown as well however.

I think he's playing good rugby considering his age and stage of his career.

Arguably he's playing the best rugby he has played since moving to the Blues.

He's not a great punter in terms of exiting from deep in his own half but otherwise his field kicking has definitely been improved this year.

For the Blues he should continue to start at 10

He should not be given carte blanche at 10 for the ABs though.

Beauden vs Love in 10 days or so should be fascinating

@Kirwan said in Blues v Drua:

Not sure what you guys are watching but BB is playing well. Much more physical this year (a genuine concern last year where he looked like he was avoiding contact), defending often up in the line, looks quick, is kicking long and is setting up his outside backs great.

Highlight was the 90m try he set up a few games ago in the final minutes, again with his pace, creating space, drawing the defence.

He gets a lot of shit for the up and unders, but he's clearly what Vern wants him to do. Vern describes them after the game as a type of linebreak.

This is the blues-drua thread, so I was just talking about this game. Specifically in the first 10 mins throwing the ball to noone while looking to avoid contact, and kicking turnover ball out on the full (as per Bones) are mistakes which other players would be crucified for. To make up for those bad errors, I didn't see him creating very much.
I don't have a problem with his defence generally, but he was defending on the wing a lot of the game.

Calling it a shit performance in isolation may be a bit harsh, but I think we should have high standards for massively capped senior ABs - and the contrast is particularly glaring vs the reaction to a couple of errors from a kid (who also did some good things) i.e. statements suggesting that he doesn't even deserve to be there?

I thought both played well. There is a tendency to count mistakes and ignore positives.

It’s hyper critical on players like BB, and frankly just robotic at this point. He’s playing well.

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

In 2025 the Blues had an injury crisis that mostly persisted (front row) through the playoffs, but they beat the Chiefs in Hamilton and pushed the Crusaders close in Christchurch.

If you were a genuine moron you would post things like "Clarke should be dropped", "Sotutu was terrible, I can't remember him", without realising that Clarke was injured most of the year and excelled when available, and that Sotutu was injured until late in the season and then was as good as any of our forwards. That is why we beat the Chiefs in Hamilton with a makeshift frontrow.

@Tim interesting, my impression before last week was that the majority of tries didn't involve Barrett, at least not in phase play anyway.

I've been a Beauden whinger for years and I agree he's been playing well. He surprised me I will admit but let's not go overboard and jinx it.

@Kirwan said in Blues v Drua:

I thought both played well. There is a tendency to count mistakes and ignore positives.

It’s hyper critical on players like BB, and frankly just robotic at this point. He’s playing well.

Disagree, I think he gets a relatively free ride. If 23 year old Millar at the Highlanders made those two mistakes, people would be rubbishing him and saying he should leave the country because he's never going to make it.

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

I don't think it's a coincidence they'd lost 2 out of 3 before Barrett came back but have won every one since.

He doesn't need to be a highlight reel player, just put the team in good positions and pick the right time to put people into space, and he's doing that very very well.

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

I don't think it's a coincidence they'd lost 2 out of 3 before Barrett came back but have won every one since.

He doesn't need to be a highlight reel player, just put the team in good positions and pick the right time to put people into space, and he's doing that very very well.

Nah that is a coincidence. We were screwed by some dodgy reffing in both those games

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

I don't think it's a coincidence they'd lost 2 out of 3 before Barrett came back but have won every one since.

He doesn't need to be a highlight reel player, just put the team in good positions and pick the right time to put people into space, and he's doing that very very well.

So your most expensive, most capped, most senior AB can be a 'just do the basics' role player and that is enough to get a pass?
Seriously the guy is meant to be a global superstar. How have we got to this point?

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

I don't think it's a coincidence they'd lost 2 out of 3 before Barrett came back but have won every one since.

He doesn't need to be a highlight reel player, just put the team in good positions and pick the right time to put people into space, and he's doing that very very well.

So your most expensive, most capped, most senior AB can be a 'just do the basics' role player and that is enough to get a pass?
Seriously the guy is meant to be a global superstar. How have we got to this point?

He's 34 years old and his team is winning games.

I'd rather that than a walking highlight reel whose team doesn't win games.

He doesn't have to win the game on his own, just has to put the team in a position to win. Bottom line, he's winning.

Personally I'd love for more of our ABs to just focus on "doing the basics" to a high standard

The worst part of recent 1st Five play is those players trying to win games on their own. McKenzie is always trying to pull a rabbit out of his arse.

Much rather the current BB approach of moving his team around the field, setting up his backs, and when needed only sparking a counter attack.

He plays smart.

@Kirwan said in Blues v Drua:

The worst part of recent 1st Five play is those players trying to win games on their own. McKenzie is always trying to pull a rabbit out of his arse.

Much rather the current BB approach of moving his team around the field, setting up his backs, and when needed only sparking a counter attack.

He plays smart.

Agreed.

Hugely underrated ability for a 1st Five to have.

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

I don't think it's a coincidence they'd lost 2 out of 3 before Barrett came back but have won every one since.

He doesn't need to be a highlight reel player, just put the team in good positions and pick the right time to put people into space, and he's doing that very very well.

So your most expensive, most capped, most senior AB can be a 'just do the basics' role player and that is enough to get a pass?
Seriously the guy is meant to be a global superstar. How have we got to this point?

He's 34 years old and his team is winning games.

I'd rather that than a walking highlight reel whose team doesn't win games.

He doesn't have to win the game on his own, just has to put the team in a position to win. Bottom line, he's winning.

And that's fine, as long as he is the aging solid, calm, but a bit error prone Blues stalwart.
But as an incumbent senior AB, 3rd most caps ever, most caps for a back, who according to the Savea article was setting AB game plans....?
To me it looks like you guys are judging him by the standards of I dunno, David Holwell, when he's Beauden fucking Barrett.

@Kirwan said in Blues v Drua:

The worst part of recent 1st Five play is those players trying to win games on their own. McKenzie is always trying to pull a rabbit out of his arse.

Much rather the current BB approach of moving his team around the field, setting up his backs, and when needed only sparking a counter attack.

He plays smart.

Come on. BB is arguably the best ever example of the low % miracle play guy. Chip kicks, cross kicks etc while ignoring overlaps, and our AB backs were a disaster with him at 10 last year.
If he's stopped that completely, then great, but I did see him kick turnover ball out on the full on the weekend...

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

I don't think it's a coincidence they'd lost 2 out of 3 before Barrett came back but have won every one since.

He doesn't need to be a highlight reel player, just put the team in good positions and pick the right time to put people into space, and he's doing that very very well.

So your most expensive, most capped, most senior AB can be a 'just do the basics' role player and that is enough to get a pass?
Seriously the guy is meant to be a global superstar. How have we got to this point?

He's 34 years old and his team is winning games.

I'd rather that than a walking highlight reel whose team doesn't win games.

He doesn't have to win the game on his own, just has to put the team in a position to win. Bottom line, he's winning.

And that's fine, as long as he is the aging solid, calm, but a bit error prone Blues stalwart.
But as an incumbent senior AB, 3rd most caps ever, most caps for a back, who according to the Savea article was setting AB game plans....?
To me it looks like you guys are judging him by the standards of I dunno, David Holwell, when he's Beauden fucking Barrett.

I'm judging him by whether he wins. That's the bottom line.

You can judge him by whatever subjective means you want that makes you feel better about slagging him off. That's a you issue.

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

I don't think it's a coincidence they'd lost 2 out of 3 before Barrett came back but have won every one since.

He doesn't need to be a highlight reel player, just put the team in good positions and pick the right time to put people into space, and he's doing that very very well.

So your most expensive, most capped, most senior AB can be a 'just do the basics' role player and that is enough to get a pass?
Seriously the guy is meant to be a global superstar. How have we got to this point?

He's 34 years old and his team is winning games.

I'd rather that than a walking highlight reel whose team doesn't win games.

He doesn't have to win the game on his own, just has to put the team in a position to win. Bottom line, he's winning.

And that's fine, as long as he is the aging solid, calm, but a bit error prone Blues stalwart.
But as an incumbent senior AB, 3rd most caps ever, most caps for a back, who according to the Savea article was setting AB game plans....?
To me it looks like you guys are judging him by the standards of I dunno, David Holwell, when he's Beauden fucking Barrett.

I'm judging him by whether he wins. That's the bottom line.

You can judge him by whatever subjective means you want that makes you feel better about slagging him off. That's a you issue.

And that's why Wyatt Crockett is the greatest rugby player of all time I guess.

Thinking an elite player should play at an elite level isn't that controversial is it?

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

I don't think it's a coincidence they'd lost 2 out of 3 before Barrett came back but have won every one since.

He doesn't need to be a highlight reel player, just put the team in good positions and pick the right time to put people into space, and he's doing that very very well.

So your most expensive, most capped, most senior AB can be a 'just do the basics' role player and that is enough to get a pass?
Seriously the guy is meant to be a global superstar. How have we got to this point?

He's 34 years old and his team is winning games.

I'd rather that than a walking highlight reel whose team doesn't win games.

He doesn't have to win the game on his own, just has to put the team in a position to win. Bottom line, he's winning.

And that's fine, as long as he is the aging solid, calm, but a bit error prone Blues stalwart.
But as an incumbent senior AB, 3rd most caps ever, most caps for a back, who according to the Savea article was setting AB game plans....?
To me it looks like you guys are judging him by the standards of I dunno, David Holwell, when he's Beauden fucking Barrett.

I'm judging him by whether he wins. That's the bottom line.

You can judge him by whatever subjective means you want that makes you feel better about slagging him off. That's a you issue.

And that's why Wyatt Crockett is the greatest rugby player of all time I guess.

Thinking an elite player should play at an elite level isn't that controversial is it?

Isn't winning the determination of the level he's playing at?

Not how pretty he plays (based on your personal preferences).

Or are you happy to ignore results in order to let everyone know you don't like the guy by focusing on how he doesn't play pretty enough for your tastes?

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Jnr said in Blues v Drua:

@reprobate said in Blues v Drua:

@Tim said in Blues v Drua:

It is worth noting that the Blues have been executing and winning much more easily with Barrett at 10.

Yes, he has bailed out of contact and put in a couple of crap kicks, but lately he has our backline firing. Out the back plays and quick wide shifts. He isn't taking on the line as a carrier like Plummer, but he has Aki and Lam outside him.

I'm no Barrett fan, but McKenzie has been struggling for the Chiefs since he was well outplayed in the quarter final last year.

Conversely it is worth noting that they won the comp without him. Yes a couple of nice out the back plays over the last few games, but nothing special to balance out the errors for me really, and I can't see good defences being worried by him particularly when he still won't run himself.

As for McKenzie, he's had about a mediocre game and a half at 10 and spend the rest of his time at 15. He's been pretty crap but he's still making more big plays to balance out the errors.

I don't think it's a coincidence they'd lost 2 out of 3 before Barrett came back but have won every one since.

He doesn't need to be a highlight reel player, just put the team in good positions and pick the right time to put people into space, and he's doing that very very well.

So your most expensive, most capped, most senior AB can be a 'just do the basics' role player and that is enough to get a pass?
Seriously the guy is meant to be a global superstar. How have we got to this point?

He's 34 years old and his team is winning games.

I'd rather that than a walking highlight reel whose team doesn't win games.

He doesn't have to win the game on his own, just has to put the team in a position to win. Bottom line, he's winning.

And that's fine, as long as he is the aging solid, calm, but a bit error prone Blues stalwart.
But as an incumbent senior AB, 3rd most caps ever, most caps for a back, who according to the Savea article was setting AB game plans....?
To me it looks like you guys are judging him by the standards of I dunno, David Holwell, when he's Beauden fucking Barrett.

I'm judging him by whether he wins. That's the bottom line.

You can judge him by whatever subjective means you want that makes you feel better about slagging him off. That's a you issue.

And that's why Wyatt Crockett is the greatest rugby player of all time I guess.

Thinking an elite player should play at an elite level isn't that controversial is it?

Isn't winning the determination of the level he's playing at?

Not how pretty he plays (based on your personal preferences).

Or are you happy to ignore results in order to let everyone know you don't like the guy by focusing on how he doesn't play pretty enough for your tastes?

Pretty? He plays way too bloody pretty. He almost plays soccer out there frankly.
As far as I know him, which is not at fucking all, I actually do like him. I think he cares about the ABs and NZ rugby, and has always come across as a good guy. That has nothing to do with me thinking that he makes errors and poor decisions, doesnt attack the line, hamstrings the AB backline, and generally performs like a battler or newbie when he's meant to be an experienced star. I would love to be proven wrong and see him kick arse, because I want NZ rugby and AB rugby to flourish.
And if winning is the determining factor then Rivez Reihana should have been the AB 10 last year, with Blackadder and Lio Willie and Christie the loosies, and let's build a statue of Wyatt. It's a team game, and an individual winning or not is all but irrelevant, otherwise Aaron and Ben Smith should never have been ABs etc etc.

Dude, you are complaining he plays too loose AND complaining he’s not playing like that anymore.

@Kirwan said in Blues v Drua:

Dude, you are complaining he plays too loose AND complaining he’s not playing like that anymore.

Not really. What I'm seeing is still errors, but without the game breaking bits of brilliance to balance them out. I do think he should play more conservative, but if you're going to be that guy you can't be putting kicks out on the full etc.