@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@brodean said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

Ok, I admit I not on the LF train at 7. he great in a highlight package, but I still not convinced he prepared to get off ground or turn in defence quick enough for me. Maybe I expect too much from loosies in work rate etc.
Best loosie on field last night with daylight behind was Sititi though, geez he was immense. Though I do say Blackadder was pretty industrious, and none played poorly.

I don't think you're watching properly Dan. LF's workrate has been incredible. He is just everywhere right up until the last minute when he kicks the ball into touch. He's a player that I've been highly critical of in the past due to inaccuracy but he seems to have put that away.

Sititi wasn't even the best 8 on the field last night.

The last 15 minutes of that game he spent waiting for the ball out wide while LF and Lio Willie were focused around the breakdown and were heavily involved. This is where the Crusaders won the game by the workrate of these two players in the last 15 minutes. The Crusaders score all the points and the Chiefs score none. Those two guys were into everything for the Crusaders last 2 scores.

Ok mate, I like players to be busy off ball , I don't think he turns and chases in defence etc, but I must admit I may be a little biased as I watched a few games when he played in France and thought he was lazy on defence then. As for Sititi, I have seen no stats , but noticed a few times him making tackles, back on feet instantly, and at least once he got turnover for being that quick.
I know probably just me, I tend to judge forward pretty a lot by how quick they get off ground. I not surprised that Sititi was looking a bit tired by last 15 minutes or so, he was into everything for rest of game.
But as I say, just me and what I look for, I not saying I right or you wrong, just we look for different things?
And I will add not knocking Lio-Willie who went well, or LF, but don't think LF is a test quality 7 , and worry with just playing there it's how he will be judged at test selection time, with not getting a chance to get a decent body of work as a winger.

It's easy to get off the ground fast when you're waiting out at centre to receive the ball for the last quarter. The only way LF can have that much involvement is by basically being on his feet the whole time.

@brodean said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

It's easy to get off the ground fast when you're waiting out at centre to receive the ball for the last quarter. The only way LF can have that much involvement is by basically being on his feet the whole time.

Ok mate, you may not of seen Sititi tackle , where he was straight back on feet pretty early in game, it was right in the middle of play. I reckon if you watch game again and watch Sititi, you will find he was probably Chiefs best player.
I counted I think 2-3 penalties LF gave at ruck time, basically going for ball when tackled player was in way, just something he will pick up with experience at 7, and that is pretty hard to get that in quick time.
I just worried that LF will get real exposed at test level. David Havili had a top game last night, but he has some problems that get shown at next level.
Highlight package players perhaps?

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@brodean said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

It's easy to get off the ground fast when you're waiting out at centre to receive the ball for the last quarter. The only way LF can have that much involvement is by basically being on his feet the whole time.

Ok mate, you may not of seen Sititi tackle , where he was straight back on feet pretty early in game, it was right in the middle of play. I reckon if you watch game again and watch Sititi, you will find he was probably Chiefs best player.
I counted I think 2-3 penalties LF gave at ruck time, basically going for ball when tackled player was in way, just something he will pick up with experience at 7, and that is pretty hard to get that in quick time.

I realise Sititi did a lot of work earlier in the game but the game was lost for the Chiefs in the last 15 minutes and he went missing when it counted.

Yes LF was penalised twice. Kirifi and Lakai have both been penalised twice in a single game this season also. That's just the way it goes for 7. LF is also in the top 5 players this season for turnovers won.

Anyway I wouldn't put him in the ABs as 7 at this stage, but I'm intrigued to see how he goes in the business end of the season. My point is that you're underestimating his workrate at the moment. He's involved in everything from play to play. The only way you can do that is if you get to your feet quickly and follow the ball.

Judge him for his recent games. Not what he was doing in France.

Some times a change in position can spark a players trajectory like it did for Nonu moving to 12.

@brodean said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@brodean said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

It's easy to get off the ground fast when you're waiting out at centre to receive the ball for the last quarter. The only way LF can have that much involvement is by basically being on his feet the whole time.

Ok mate, you may not of seen Sititi tackle , where he was straight back on feet pretty early in game, it was right in the middle of play. I reckon if you watch game again and watch Sititi, you will find he was probably Chiefs best player.
I counted I think 2-3 penalties LF gave at ruck time, basically going for ball when tackled player was in way, just something he will pick up with experience at 7, and that is pretty hard to get that in quick time.

I realise Sititi did a lot of work earlier in the game but the game was lost for the Chiefs in the last 15 minutes and he went missing when it counted.

Yes LF was penalised twice. Kirifi and Lakai have both been penalised twice in a single game this season also. That's just the way it goes for 7. LF is also in the top 5 players this season for turnovers won.

Anyway I wouldn't put him in the ABs as 7 at this stage, but I'm intrigued to see how he goes in the business end of the season. My point is that you're underestimating his workrate at the moment. He's involved in everything from play to play. The only way you can do that is if you get to your feet quickly and follow the ball.

Judge him for his recent games. Not what he was doing in France.

Some times a change in position can spark a players trajectory like it did for Nonu moving to 12.

Yep kind of have judged him on recent games, and his turning off in defence is what worries me, I noticed it against Blues where he just didn't turn when players went past him (a bit like Akira Ioane). The main thing is as I say, (and you agree) he not a test 7, but risking not getting picked as a winger etc as not getting a body of work there. He looks to be a bench player at moment, and needs to remember how to play in his specialist position I think. Anyway hopefully he sorts these things out, as he got the making of being good.

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

and needs to remember how to play in his specialist position I think.

What specialist position?

The thing is Dan, his game suits 7. He is bloody dangerous around the fringes ball in hand, has power that a lot of NZ loosies lack and has real ability to jackal.

His lack of pace and challenges defending in space are not as much of a concern at 7 as they are at wing and midfield.

To dismiss him out of hand as a 7 is close-minded in my view.

If no one had seen him before and he had just burst on the scene as a 7 since the Tahs game would people be saying he isn't a 7? I don't believe so.

@Tim said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

Can't help but wonder if going for a try was needed there. Crusaders could well score twice more.

Another try then and Chief canter home.

@KiwiMurph said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

and needs to remember how to play in his specialist position I think.

What specialist position?

The thing is Dan, his game suits 7. He is bloody dangerous around the fringes ball in hand, has power that a lot of NZ loosies lack and has real ability to jackal.

His lack of pace and challenges defending in space are not as much of a concern at 7 as they are at wing and midfield.

To dismiss him out of hand as a 7 is close-minded in my view.

I not dismissing him out of hand, just saying as a loosie he will get exposed at test level I think, he has ability to jackal, do do Quinn Tupaea and TT etc in midfield. A 7 has to be more than a jackaler, he has to slow opposition ball etc, and defend. All I saying he doesn't to me look a test 7, it's like most roles something you have to hone your craft at, he may get there if that's where he wants to play, but still a bit to go.
I just worry he's a specialist wing and maybe with not getting games there as well as at 7, he is going to be good at a couple of positions, without being excellent at any.
I don't know if any heard Rennie last week talking about picking players quick up off ground, and not from highlight packages you see from watching tv?

This game highlighted a worry I have about Tupaea. He does some very very good things, but he drops off too many tackles for my liking. Hell, even Blackadder ran over him at one stage.

Just reading stats and they kind of coming up with what I saw, and not sure of accuracy etc.
But Sititi had most carries with 26, followed by LF and CLW with 18 each. Tackles CLW made most with 20 and Sititi 19., Jamie Hannah 19. Turnovers they have have have 7 turnovers won, but only name 3 players CLW, DH and IH as 1 each, maybe because they only name 3 of any stats.

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

I just worry he's a specialist wing and maybe with not getting games there as well as at 7, he is going to be good at a couple of positions, without being excellent at any.

It's been years since LF has been a specialist wing. I'm not worried about that at all.

I am excited by how much LF has shown in a short period of time at 7 and how much he might be able to impact the game from the bench.

@KiwiMurph said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

I just worry he's a specialist wing and maybe with not getting games there as well as at 7, he is going to be good at a couple of positions, without being excellent at any.

It's been years since LF has been a specialist wing. I'm not worried about that at all.

I am excited by how much LF has shown in a short period of time at 7 and how much he might be able to impact the game from the bench.

Ok, well as all I said he not a starting 7 seems we agee?

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@KiwiMurph said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

I just worry he's a specialist wing and maybe with not getting games there as well as at 7, he is going to be good at a couple of positions, without being excellent at any.

It's been years since LF has been a specialist wing. I'm not worried about that at all.

I am excited by how much LF has shown in a short period of time at 7 and how much he might be able to impact the game from the bench.

Ok, well as all I said he not a starting 7 seems we agee?

I don't think we are saying the same thing

I'm realistic enough to realise after fewer than 10 starts at 7 he isn't going to be the starting 7.

However - I would not rule him out as a starting 7 option going forward

I would be open minded and encouraged by what he shown so far.

It's not like NZ rugby has a plethora of quality 7 options right now - there's question marks over almost all these guys.

He provides a point of difference that is exciting and in balanced back row (he seems to pair really well with CLW at 8 ) he can be really effective.

Unless they were injured I am curious why Gibbes subbed both Jacobson and Vaa'i off midway through the 2nd half. That's a lot of experience and your captain/vice captain you are losing.

@brodean said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

Ok, I admit I not on the LF train at 7. he great in a highlight package, but I still not convinced he prepared to get off ground or turn in defence quick enough for me. Maybe I expect too much from loosies in work rate etc.
Best loosie on field last night with daylight behind was Sititi though, geez he was immense. Though I do say Blackadder was pretty industrious, and none played poorly.

I don't think you're watching properly Dan. LF's workrate has been incredible. He is just everywhere right up until the last minute when he kicks the ball into touch. He's a player that I've been highly critical of in the past due to inaccuracy but he seems to have put that away.

Sititi wasn't even the best 8 on the field last night.

The last 15 minutes of that game he spent waiting for the ball out wide while LF and Lio Willie were focused around the breakdown and were heavily involved. This is where the Crusaders won the game by the workrate of these two players in the last 15 minutes. The Crusaders score all the points and the Chiefs score none. Those two guys were into everything for the Crusaders last 2 scores.

A period Chiefs played with no recognized open side flanker.

@Bovidae said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

Unless they were injured I am curious why Gibbes subbed both Jacobson and Vaa'i off midway through the 2nd half. That's a lot of experience and your captain/vice captain you are losing.

My thoughts exactly. Which meant playing with no openside. And Ah Khoi seemed full of enthusiasm, but somehow fairly ineffectual.

It was an interesting decision, and one that could have cost them, to give Letiu the ineout throw just after he came on given Taylor was still on. I know they had been struggling on tjeor own throw, but surely Taylor would have been the better option. The lineout was subsequently lost along with a great attacking chance.

@pakman said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

My thoughts exactly. Which meant playing with no openside. And Ah Khoi seemed full of enthusiasm, but somehow fairly ineffectual.

Yep. Sititi was probably the best suited to play openside of the three loosies on the field but that mix didn't work. Lord is usually the lock subbed, not Vaa'i. If that was an experiment I wouldn't want to see it again.

@KiwiMurph said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

I just worry he's a specialist wing and maybe with not getting games there as well as at 7, he is going to be good at a couple of positions, without being excellent at any.

It's been years since LF has been a specialist wing. I'm not worried about that at all.

I am excited by how much LF has shown in a short period of time at 7 and how much he might be able to impact the game from the bench.

And this could be where we see the difference between a coach backing himself to help a player to be better and one who ignores talent.

@Bovidae said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

Unless they were injured I am curious why Gibbes subbed both Jacobson and Vaa'i off midway through the 2nd half. That's a lot of experience and your captain/vice captain you are losing.

Think it was simply a case of giving them a bit of a rest in a 'dead rubber' while also asking some of the other guys to see if they can step up.

Chiefs seem a bit banged up to me. Need to be careful with Norris, Vaai, Jacobson, Taukeiaho pre finals in my view. Tupaea, McKenzie and Roe similar. Wonder if a bunch of these are on bench or rested for Blues match. Need to start Cook Savage too. I think Jacomb has floundered a bit when he is the key playmaker this year. So need a plan B if McKenzie not ready to go.

Gibbes has done a fair bit of rotation amongst the hookers, props and loose forwards. Certainly more than the coaches of the other teams in the playoffs. I'm not worried about fatigue. The key will be getting all the key players back in those games. ENS and Narawa could be back against the Blues according to the RTP info.

@pakman said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@brodean said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

@Dan54 said in Crusaders v Chiefs:

Ok, I admit I not on the LF train at 7. he great in a highlight package, but I still not convinced he prepared to get off ground or turn in defence quick enough for me. Maybe I expect too much from loosies in work rate etc.
Best loosie on field last night with daylight behind was Sititi though, geez he was immense. Though I do say Blackadder was pretty industrious, and none played poorly.

I don't think you're watching properly Dan. LF's workrate has been incredible. He is just everywhere right up until the last minute when he kicks the ball into touch. He's a player that I've been highly critical of in the past due to inaccuracy but he seems to have put that away.

Sititi wasn't even the best 8 on the field last night.

The last 15 minutes of that game he spent waiting for the ball out wide while LF and Lio Willie were focused around the breakdown and were heavily involved. This is where the Crusaders won the game by the workrate of these two players in the last 15 minutes. The Crusaders score all the points and the Chiefs score none. Those two guys were into everything for the Crusaders last 2 scores.

A period Chiefs played with no recognized open side flanker.

Parker has started 3 games at openside so I guess they thought he would be good for a quarter.

Besides LF isn't a recognised openside flanker either.

Parker seems a tad slow for 7.

Parker isn't a typical 7 and I wouldn't want him there regularly but he's pretty decent over the ball. Had about eight breakdown turnovers for the year which isn't bad for a 6/8.