All Blacks v France II

When he first made the All Blacks, Fletch looked a bit lost in general play - but, he's come on in leaps and bounds.

I think someone posted a photo of some of the AB props a few weeks ago where it was notable how much smaller he is than some of the others - this article by Hinton makes the point - he's giving away a good 10kgs to most and closer to 20kgs to Tamaiti.

Cut from the mould of Owen Franks and Steve McDowall - very strong, but must also be technically excellent in the scrum.

We're in a pretty good place for props, I think.

Pretty good place for locks as well with S. Barrett, PT, Holland, Vaa'i, Darry, Lord and Beehre (though the latter is still untested). Ah Kuoi might be not big enough for the international scene. His future may lay at 6 where the Chiefs already have Finau, Parker and Jacobson.

@Mauss Good post mate. On the props that came on standing off rucks, was that because the French were a bit worn out and weren't hitting rucks (did look a bit like that at game),they seemed to be standing off. Then perhaps the props coming on are used to either carry, or where you point out Norris standing one side and play going the other way, he was attracting defence?
Not sure that is case, but regardless I think it perhaps shows why we got starters and subs and how we use them.
Thanks for putting up that post.

@Mauss that was a pleasure to read and genuinely enlightening. Great analysis.

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France II:

Surely a piss take?

View image

This fits considering the French reportedly left the field early and didn't stick around for the Dave Gallagher trophy presentation.

Seriously, who cares if the French decided not to stick around for the trophy presentation?

Not something we would do, but honestly not a very big deal if the opposition wanted to get back to the dressing room and start their preparations for Test 3.

What did we make of Barretts yellow card?

Seems to have been lost in the ether after a convincing win.

Still think we are getting rode roughshod by refs and we never say anything about it.

Scott Hansens media scrum in the build up to this test confirmed as much.

We dont play "the game" at all.

He knocked the ball down so it's a clear YC

@reprobate said in All Blacks v France II:

@cgrant At least they are trying out a centre (Proctor) and a winger (Ioane). They've also had a crack at doing something about the loosie balance - so kudos for all of that.
But 10 is a problem they're not even trying to solve.

We need the two incumbents to pick up slight knocks.

Beaudy has been on a pedestal for a long time and we need injury to do what the coaches will not.

@Jet Clear YC. Refs are consistent on that one. Beauden Barrett should have known better.

@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:

@Jet Clear YC. Refs are consistent on that one. Beauden Barrett should have known better.

Wasnt it forward in the buildup?

@Jet said in All Blacks v France II:

@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:

@Jet Clear YC. Refs are consistent on that one. Beauden Barrett should have known better.

Wasnt it forward in the buildup?

Maybe, but who cares? Forward passes and knock-ons get missed in just about every game. That's not some conspiracy, it's just a coincidence. What he did deserved a yellow card - because blocking passes discourages attacking rugby - and it is one of the more consistent card rulings out there.

@Jet Doesn't matter.

@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:

In the end, the gameplan bore very little fruit, Norris’ and Tosi’s combined 4 carries for a total of 7 metres made barely a fundamental upgrade on de Groot’s and Newell’s combined 4 carries for 3 metres made. Norris put in a big shift on defence but the argument can be made that this defensive shift wouldn’t be necessary if the quality of the breakdown, maul and lineout hadn’t plummeted with the bench forwards coming on. If the bench plan is to bring carrying impact then the coaches need to make sure that there are enough forwards on the field who focus on securing the breakdown. Because any plan that results in your backs having to consistently provide clean ball is a plan destined to fail.

I think this hits the nail on the head to explain the decline in the AB's attacking structure in the second half. Thank you for the insight.

This puts the AB's in a conumdrum going forward as per the weekend for example there's really no-one on the bench with a fantastic reputation of shifting bodies at the ruck. Norris, Tosi and Samisoni are ball carriers, Finau plays wide and Kirifi is more of a scavenger at the breakdown.

It begs the question when the bench comes on who's job is it to clear bodes at the ruck? It would appear no-one and everyone...

@Windows97 said in All Blacks v France II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:

In the end, the gameplan bore very little fruit, Norris’ and Tosi’s combined 4 carries for a total of 7 metres made barely a fundamental upgrade on de Groot’s and Newell’s combined 4 carries for 3 metres made. Norris put in a big shift on defence but the argument can be made that this defensive shift wouldn’t be necessary if the quality of the breakdown, maul and lineout hadn’t plummeted with the bench forwards coming on. If the bench plan is to bring carrying impact then the coaches need to make sure that there are enough forwards on the field who focus on securing the breakdown. Because any plan that results in your backs having to consistently provide clean ball is a plan destined to fail.

I think this hits the nail on the head to explain the decline in the AB's attacking structure in the second half. Thank you for the insight.

This puts the AB's in a conumdrum going forward as per the weekend for example there's really no-one on the bench with a fantastic reputation of shifting bodies at the ruck. Norris, Tosi and Samisoni are ball carriers, Finau plays wide and Kirifi is more of a scavenger at the breakdown.

It begs the question when the bench comes on who's job is it to clear bodes at the ruck? It would appear no-one and everyone...

This is the problem with most people's idea of the 'impact player'. Stack your bench with ball runners, and you won't actually have the ball enough for them to do anything.
It's one of the reasons I'd look at starting Samisoni and using Taylor for the 2nd half. Also one running prop and one cleaning prop per half, same with the loosies...

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:

Nice post Mauss.

One thing to consider is we dominated possession in the first half while the French had more of the possession in the 2nd half. They had 68% in the last 10 minutes. We were unable to win turnovers off them. Given that context there is not as many attacking rucks for the props to attend.

Perhaps a better balance would be achieved by starting Norris with Newell and letting De Groot empty the tank for the last 20 minutes?

As you mentioned the sample data is not high from one game. During the Super Season Newell is obviously the hardest worker of the All Blacks props when it comes to rucks.

Using The Analyst stats for the SRP season...

Total Rucks Per 80 Minutes
31.23 Fletcher Newell
30.37 Tyrel Lomax
28.66 Ollie Norris
27.26 Tamaiti Williams
27.24 Pasilio Tosi
24.14 Ethan de Groot

Norris, Williams and Tosi hit a similar amount of rucks however it should be noted that Newell averages the most even though he is a starting prop and he puts in some big minutes.

Attacking Ruck Effectiveness
90.7 Ollie Norris
85.8 Pasilio Tosi
81.3 Fletcher Newell
80.0 Tyrel Lomax
73.4 Tamaiti Williams
70.6 Ethan de Groot

Defensive Ruck Effectiveness
18.2 Pasilio Tosi
11.9 Tamaiti Williams
8.8 Ollie Norris
6.1 Tyrel Lomax
5.6 Fletcher Newell
4.3 Ethan de Groot

These season stats confirm your analysis about De Groot's effectiveness. While Tosi, and Norris average less ruck involvements they are more effective than the others. During the Hurricanes Brumbies qualifying final it was noticeable how much more effective Tosi was at the breakdown when he came on compared to Lomax.

Breakdown Steals Per 80 Minutes
0.36 Ollie Norris
0.33 Tamaiti Williams
0.19 Pasilio Tosi
0.16 Tyrel Lomax
0.1 Fletcher Newell
0.0 Ethan de Groot

@reprobate said in All Blacks v France II:

This is the problem with most people's idea of the 'impact player'. Stack your bench with ball runners, and you won't actually have the ball enough for them to do anything.
It's one of the reasons I'd look at starting Samisoni and using Taylor for the 2nd half. Also one running prop and one cleaning prop per half, same with the loosies...

I agree although if Tuipulotu starts with Holland then having the carrying prop or hooker becomes less important. I thought we had a good balance in the starting tight five on Saturday. It changed the dynamic.

@Jet said in All Blacks v France II:

@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:

@Jet Clear YC. Refs are consistent on that one. Beauden Barrett should have known better.

Wasnt it forward in the buildup?

Not clear and obvious to me, and I did look.

Hate the interpretation (it was not a premeditated act, not therefore "cynical" IMO) but i can accept the ruling based on current standards.

@reprobate said in All Blacks v France II:

blocking passes discourages attacking rugby

My bugbear.

Blocking passes is not illegal. Especially if they're knocked back.

Knocking the ball down is not illegal.

It's illegal if it is knocked forward.

Tackling discourages attacking rugby. Don't think we're banning that.