All Blacks 2022

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

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O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

@crucial duh, what do coaches know? Players have to play better.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

Ultimately, though, it's the pathways right. Australia throws up so many high quality cricketers as their lower grades ruthlessly expose flaws. NZ Rugby used to do the same - but the cattle quality seems to have dropped off significantly.

Is it the coaching brain drain? We just don't seem to innovate any more the way we used to; since 2015 I don't think we've seen us leading the world in many categories.

Henry reset this in 03/04 when he took over, kicked a bunch of dickheads out of the team, and changed the culture and quality significnatly. Do we need this again? Who could do it - it ain't gonne be Fozzie, that's for sure.

18 Tests to the world cup, and we're going to be praying for bolters like NMS to ignite our campaign.

Speaking of bolters, Taine Plumtree has looked bloody impressive in the three outings I've seen him in. Just seems to stand out on the field both pre-season and during games. The try scoring is a nice bonus as well

@crucial yep all good there. Just saying that the coaches have a whole lot of things to consider over a long campaign. Efficiency and effectiveness count for a lot. I give them far more credit than the public gives them.

@nzzp I think a perfect storm, we have been losing players for years, but seemed to scrape by, then covid, new coaching regime and all our issues that had been bubbling under for years appear magnified.

Hopefully a blip, but the player and coach drain won't go away...although I guess if we aren't playing the attractive rugby to attract the eyes of the NH pundits, the player drain will inevitably slow...

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.

There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.

There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.

Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues through covid cases, didn't say it definitely would.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.

There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.

Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.

Man, you should replace Fozzie.

"Go out there and do the basics well boys"

If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.

I think you are overreacting a bit. To me, the secret of AB rugby is all about doing the basics well and consistently -and that allows razzle dazzle and showcase reel highlights elsewhere.

What's concerning me is our rate of basic errors has gone up - the quality of cleaning, the skill level with the ball, missing touch with kicks. poor box kicking, etc. It's the basics; winning lineout ball, kickoffs in the right place, lifters ready, getting the right players carrying around rucks, etc. So I don't think we are good at the basics at the moment.

The argument I suppose is how good is good, and how poor is poor. We're certianly good, but things like Tonga scoring a rolling maul try against us makes me scratch my head. A well drilled team with the basics should be able to defend it. Then we shouldn't be surprised if England or Ireland or SA do that against us either.

We're trending towards a solid, team, somwehwere between 2 and 5 in the world. That's elite by all but AB historical standards frankly.

@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:

You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.

Exactly, right on point with the evolution of tight defenses and the opposition no longer gifting the AB trys via turnover ball... And in order to dismantle modern defences you need to be systematic, something Foster is incapable off. When faced with tough defences, the ABs turn to hail mary's, give the ball to whatever bulldozing star we have convinced ourselves is unstoppable. When that fails, which it will most of the time, the team looks clueless.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.

There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.

Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.

Man, you should replace Fozzie.

"Go out there and do the basics well boys"

If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.

FFS ! ...we have the best backs in the world but can't take full advantage of them against the best teams because the tight-five are not doing the job against them properly, we all known the game is dominated in the forwards, it's so obvious what our forwards need to do, by AB standards we are playing very poorly.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

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O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.

There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.

Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.

Man, you should replace Fozzie.

"Go out there and do the basics well boys"

If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.

FFS ! ...we have the best backs in the world but can't take full advantage of them against the best teams because the tight-five are not doing the job against them properly, we all known the game is dominated in the forwards, so it so obviously what our forwards need to do, by AB standards we are playing very poorly.

Havili and Bridge are nowhere near that category, nor was Mounga when he returned. Bridge being unable to beat a defender has zero to do with the forwards

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.

There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.

Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.

Man, you should replace Fozzie.

"Go out there and do the basics well boys"

If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.

FFS ! ...we have the best backs in the world but can't take full advantage of them against the best teams because the tight-five are not doing the job against them properly, we all known the game is dominated in the forwards, so it so obviously what our forwards need to do, by AB standards we are playing very poorly.

Havili and Bridge are nowhere near that category, nor was Mounga when he returned. Bridge being unable to beat a defender has zero to do with the forwards

We still have plenty of top backs to pick from though... & certainty rate Mo'unga over BB at 10.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.

There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.

Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.

Man, you should replace Fozzie.

"Go out there and do the basics well boys"

If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.

FFS ! ...we have the best backs in the world but can't take full advantage of them against the best teams because the tight-five are not doing the job against them properly, we all known the game is dominated in the forwards, so it so obviously what our forwards need to do, by AB standards we are playing very poorly.

Havili and Bridge are nowhere near that category, nor was Mounga when he returned. Bridge being unable to beat a defender has zero to do with the forwards

We still have plenty of top backs to pick from though.

We have some decent backs, but yuo'd struggle to argue many would be getting towards a world XV discussion.

Contendors
Smith
RIoane
ALB (I'm a massive fan, particularly at test level, despite his last season injuries)

after that - we're scraping. Maaaybe BB, but he's been out of form and position for a while.

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.

There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.

Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.

Man, you should replace Fozzie.

"Go out there and do the basics well boys"

If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.

FFS ! ...we have the best backs in the world but can't take full advantage of them against the best teams because the tight-five are not doing the job against them properly, we all known the game is dominated in the forwards, so it so obviously what our forwards need to do, by AB standards we are playing very poorly.

Havili and Bridge are nowhere near that category, nor was Mounga when he returned. Bridge being unable to beat a defender has zero to do with the forwards

We still have plenty of top backs to pick from though.

We have some decent backs, but yuo'd struggle to argue many would be getting towards a world XV discussion.

Contendors
Smith
RIoane
ALB (I'm a massive fan, particularly at test level, despite his last season injuries)

after that - we're scraping. Maaaybe BB, but he's been out of form and position for a while.

forget World XV, we would be battling to get many in the World 2nd XV.

There are some fine players running around at the moment. And we have a lot of, not duds, but well, they're hardly world beaters.

Something is clearly wrong when average players go north, get selected for Tests against us and look world class.

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:

Something is clearly wrong when average players go north, get selected for Tests against us and look world class.

Jamison Gibson-Park was an average Super player, but looked really strong. That said, he'd probably be a starter now; Super quality has dropped a lot in the last few years