What is Good for Women's Rugby

@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@MajorRage said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

I firmly disagree with the notion that you shouldn't have the best person in the job. Wayne Smith being proof of that.

I'm not sure who you are disagreeing with in that statement. No one has said that the best person shouldn't get the job. Quite the opposite in fact.

Well, you did say that gender should be a criteria for selecting the best person. Literally the point of our disagreement, because that's about as relevant as filtering by race or age or hair colour.

@Crazy-Horse said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crucial The fact that you just blow past the statement Sports NZ fining an organisation for lack of female represenation on a board and just accept that is an OK policy is exactly why I'm pushing back so hard. These sorts of policies won't help any organisation be more successful at anything.

It's the old equality of outcome over equality of opportunity argument. Once you introduce quotas for anything you by definition are no longer chasing the best candidates.

I think I can see where @Crucial is coming from (apologies to @Crucial if I am wrong). I don't think he is disagreeing with your assertion of having the best people for the job regardless of gender. I think he is suggesting sometimes that best person may well be a female, simply because she is a female.

Broadly speaking that implies they're homogenous in their thinking.

Take uniform issues for example. For years females were forced to wear white clothing - white shorts in footy or white undies in tennis. As a male I had no idea of the issues this can cause during certain times of the month. It never even crossed my mind and I am betting it didn't cross many men's mind until it was pointed out. This is an issue that is only now starting to be addressed in women's sport because women are getting into positions of power and subsequently getting a voice.

Perhaps I'm not old enough to be stuck in such a mindset, because if women came to me with such an obvious concern, I'd address it.

@antipodean said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

Perhaps I'm not old enough to be stuck in such a mindset, because if women came to me with such an obvious concern, I'd address it.

As most of us would. I don't know why, but some administations have been slow on the uptake. I think I read something the other day that suggested this is the first year at Wimbledon where dress codes are being relaxed because of this very issue. I know Wimbledon is conservative so that probably played a part.

@muddyriver said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@mariner4life

I think the woman's versions can be self sufficient if they can steal netballs market share. Netballers are fully pro on their on merit and TV deals I believe.

I doubt that's likely to happen - netball is the number one game for girls and women in New Zealand. And it appears to be run well.

@antipodean said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crazy-Horse said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crucial The fact that you just blow past the statement Sports NZ fining an organisation for lack of female represenation on a board and just accept that is an OK policy is exactly why I'm pushing back so hard. These sorts of policies won't help any organisation be more successful at anything.

It's the old equality of outcome over equality of opportunity argument. Once you introduce quotas for anything you by definition are no longer chasing the best candidates.

I think I can see where @Crucial is coming from (apologies to @Crucial if I am wrong). I don't think he is disagreeing with your assertion of having the best people for the job regardless of gender. I think he is suggesting sometimes that best person may well be a female, simply because she is a female.

Broadly speaking that implies they're homogenous in their thinking.

Take uniform issues for example. For years females were forced to wear white clothing - white shorts in footy or white undies in tennis. As a male I had no idea of the issues this can cause during certain times of the month. It never even crossed my mind and I am betting it didn't cross many men's mind until it was pointed out. This is an issue that is only now starting to be addressed in women's sport because women are getting into positions of power and subsequently getting a voice.

Perhaps I'm not old enough to be stuck in such a mindset, because if women came to me with such an obvious concern, I'd address it.

Absolutely, I think those types of examples are pretty weak and easily addressed. In a past life, I helped design educational spaces, and all I can say is that there are good reasons why almost all chair-seats in classrooms are black or in very dark colors. I will admit that when I first started in the role, I hadn't thought of it until it was brought up. It didn't make the user who pointed it out qualified to do my role though.

My opinion about this from watching some of the footage (breakdown etc) is that the female rugby players appear to want female coaches (at least a fair representation), and that makes sense as it opens up new pathways for them in the future. So, it is up to the current coaches to help develop them.

I personally think that the ref in the final was pretty fucking pants, but at the end of the day the players from btoh sides haven't been moaning

@Crazy-Horse said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@antipodean said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

Perhaps I'm not old enough to be stuck in such a mindset, because if women came to me with such an obvious concern, I'd address it.

As most of us would. I don't know why, but some administations have been slow on the uptake. I think I read something the other day that suggested this is the first year at Wimbledon where dress codes are being relaxed because of this very issue. I know Wimbledon is conservative so that probably played a part.

I've no doubt you're correct that the All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club are a pack of stuffy fuckers in love with their traditions, but a place that has women on the board and a female CEO should surely have addressed this point earlier?

@antipodean said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crazy-Horse said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@antipodean said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

Perhaps I'm not old enough to be stuck in such a mindset, because if women came to me with such an obvious concern, I'd address it.

As most of us would. I don't know why, but some administations have been slow on the uptake. I think I read something the other day that suggested this is the first year at Wimbledon where dress codes are being relaxed because of this very issue. I know Wimbledon is conservative so that probably played a part.

I've no doubt you're correct that the All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club are a pack of stuffy fuckers in love with their traditions, but a place that has women on the board and a female CEO should surely have addressed this point earlier?

You would think so but apparently not.

@antipodean said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crazy-Horse said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@antipodean said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

Perhaps I'm not old enough to be stuck in such a mindset, because if women came to me with such an obvious concern, I'd address it.

As most of us would. I don't know why, but some administations have been slow on the uptake. I think I read something the other day that suggested this is the first year at Wimbledon where dress codes are being relaxed because of this very issue. I know Wimbledon is conservative so that probably played a part.

I've no doubt you're correct that the All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club are a pack of stuffy fuckers in love with their traditions, but a place that has women on the board and a female CEO should surely have addressed this point earlier?

It's almost like people are individuals, regardless of their gender.

Here is interesting news about the Worcester Warriors Women's team. At least they can continue playing, with the financial support of their local community, unlike the now defunct Worcester Mens team.

@gt12 said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

I personally think that the ref in the final was pretty fucking pants,

Out of curiousity, do you have specifics? We say the same about most refs in any game as we pick apart their performances.
Many would say that Joubert's reffing of the 2011 final was pants yet he was probably the top ref around at the time.
I am wondering how much of the judgement is due to the slightly different reffing in the women's game and how much was just incompetence. Of the incompetence, how much worse was it to what we see in the mens game?
I actually didn't mind the ref team in the final. The game flowed well, the penalty count was down, the players ultimately decided the game.

@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@gt12 said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

I personally think that the ref in the final was pretty fucking pants,

Out of curiousity, do you have specifics? We say the same about most refs in any game as we pick apart their performances.
Many would say that Joubert's reffing of the 2011 final was pants yet he was probably the top ref around at the time.
I am wondering how much of the judgement is due to the slightly different reffing in the women's game and how much was just incompetence. Of the incompetence, how much worse was it to what we see in the mens game?
I actually didn't mind the ref team in the final. The game flowed well, the penalty count was down, the players ultimately decided the game.

We could pick apart any ref, I agree - it's very subjective. The interpretation that stands out in the final and semi, is the allowing of turnovers without supporting their bodyweight (hands/elbows on the ground). It was happening so much I actually wondered if they were playing under different laws.

A better question would be is Davidson the best ref in the world? Top ten? If not, why wouldn't you want the best refs adjudicating at the World Cup?

@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@gt12 said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

I personally think that the ref in the final was pretty fucking pants,

Out of curiousity, do you have specifics? We say the same about most refs in any game as we pick apart their performances.
Many would say that Joubert's reffing of the 2011 final was pants yet he was probably the top ref around at the time.
I am wondering how much of the judgement is due to the slightly different reffing in the women's game and how much was just incompetence. Of the incompetence, how much worse was it to what we see in the mens game?
I actually didn't mind the ref team in the final. The game flowed well, the penalty count was down, the players ultimately decided the game.

We could pick apart any ref, I agree - it's very subjective. The interpretation that stands out in the final and semi, is the allowing of turnovers without supporting their bodyweight (hands/elbows on the ground). It was happening so much I actually wondered if they were playing under different laws.

A better question would be is Davidson the best ref in the world? Top ten? If not, why wouldn't you want the best refs adjudicating at the World Cup?

There are a few high level mens refs that do the same (NH ones mainly). I do think that this is one of those areas where more leeway is given though.

@antipodean yea maybe wishful thinking, the grassroots is very well managed by volunteers. I just genuinely hate the sport

I just can't watch womens sports.

Its just not as good . im sorry.

@Steve Then what are you doing in this thread?

@Stargazer said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Steve Then what are you doing in this thread?

It really is a redundant comment for sure. Plenty of other topics to contribute to, hopefully with something a bit more constructive @Steve

Not sure if it's been raised here, but a few years back, NZR brought all the mens teams under the same "banner", so it's All Blacks, All Blacks Sevens, All Blacks XV, etc.

Could the Black Ferns be the All Blacks Ferns? Thought just occurred to me as I'm a cheap arse and would like if wearing my AB's gear could also be seen as supporting the BF's.

@Bones I think Black Ferns is its own brand and I wouldn't change it.

@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@MajorRage said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

I firmly disagree with the notion that you shouldn't have the best person in the job. Wayne Smith being proof of that.

I'm not sure who you are disagreeing with in that statement. No one has said that the best person shouldn't get the job. Quite the opposite in fact.

I think you implied it, but then you have moved away from it, so I'll accept this isn't what you meant and move forwards.

@MajorRage said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

Whether right or wrong a big aspect to the success of the WRWC was the buy in by women that saw how other women were driving much of what was happening..if that is what needs to happen to accelerate growth then I'm happy with it.

You sure about this? It's a pretty big statement.

This is the part I'd really like more reasoning behind. Im not saying you are wrong, would just like some insight as to how you built this point of view. I'm not on the ground so I have less of a feel, but my thoughts would think that the success of the tournament was more about the personalities like Ruby Tui than anything.

@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:

@Crucial I'm talking about creating an audience that is prepared to pay for sport beyond those who have invested in the excitement of a one-off event.

That's the thinking that NZR have to get past IMO

Does Women's Rugby have to be a profit centre? Maybe it can be like a breakeven supermarket product that gets people through the doors and strengthens the overall cashflow. Maybe even a loss leader by itself that drives benefits elsewhere. Eyes on the game are still eyes on the game as far as sponsors go and the task of NZR is not to be a corporation but to maintain the health of the game. Sure, money is a part of that, but it is blinkered views to expect that every cost centre is profitable. NPC is already propped up by the top end but we couldn't have the ABs without NPC.

I'm not convinced we're disagreeing with each other.

NZR (and other unions) need to create a market out of the not middle aged male die hard sports tragic.