I'm sure that the ABs got seduced into going wide after watching Aust having some success there a week earlier. The problem is that you need to earn that right first and the forwards failed to provide any platform to launch off, like they did against Ireland. Read's poor captaincy was evident as they didn't try to change tactics that clearly weren't working.
@gt12 Spot on analysis and comment GT, we did not seem to have a back up plan to the high risk rugby style that Eddie new we were going to play.
I know there has been a lot of comment on the Barrett Cane selection and I just wonder if Cane was maybe not fully fit and the selectors knew he probably at best only had 40 mins of rugby in him which was better to use at the back end rather than the start
I think what makes it a slightly easier pill to swallow is that in my opinion, that was up there as one of the best performances England has produced.
The pace, accuracy, agression, if it wasnt against us was something to behold.
We were simply not given any room or time to get into the game, they grabbed us by the balls in minute 1 and never needed to let go to regrip.
The onslaught we faced was something we might weather in the opening stanza v SA, but there was no let up, no weather the storm regroup and win, we barely got out of neutral.
I said 2 weeks ago when people were worrying about Ireland, I said I was worried about England.
That we were beaten by a performance like that, and 2011/2015 makes it easier to deal with.
@taniwharugby said in Why this feels different...:
The onslaught we faced was something we might weather in the opening stanza v SA, but there was no let up, no weather the storm regroup and win, we barely got out of neutral.
It's funny, seemed one of those games where the bounce of the ball just didn't go our way. they dropped a bit of ball, and opened the door to us - we just didn't go through. Seemed to spend the night kicking it back to them, being bundled into touch, or conceding turnovers at the breakdown.
In the end, we thought they'd be good enough to get 20-odd points. Just keeping us to 7 is the issue; we just weren't good enough to score. After last week, it's particularly disappointing, we had the capability, just didn't execute at all (or tkae good options)
@sparky Ioane BROTHERS?? Akira is such a waste of talent it's criminal.
He needs a huge super season to be even sniffing an AB Jersey next year.
Yes the forward pack will not be one we look back at and go wow they are up there among the great packs we have fielded. Some great indivduals, and some that may go on to become AB greats, but not yet.
Just not enough raw horsepower in tjis front row. Sometimes the broadsword beats the rapier. I think Franks was missed. Didnt see anything more from Laulala than Frank's used to produce.
We were just straight out outplayed from minute 1 to 81.
@Number-10 yeah we had 2 calls go to us, we could have really got a hiding, the worst game the ABs have collectively played in my memory I reckon. (1981 Bokke series).
@BartMan said in Why this feels different...:
@sparky Ioane BROTHERS?? Akira is such a waste of talent it's criminal.
He didn't front in NPC this year. Could be a great if he gets his head right, but the chances of that are diminishing day by day. It's really sad.
@taniwharugby said in Why this feels different...:
I said 2 weeks ago when people were worrying about Ireland, I said I was worried about England.
I don't think it was that we weren't worried about England, but the fact that the ABs had to beat Ireland first before they would play England. QF loses don't go down well...
@gt12 said in Why this feels different...:
It was horrible walking past all those fucking crowing English fluffybunnies to leave the stadium.
THIS!
I sat down outside the stadium for about half an hour to get my shit together (unsuccessfully), and you could still hear bouts of that hateful “swing low” coming from inside.
Absolute fluffybunnies.
But with good reason to celebrate... their team was bloody good. The filthy bastard fluffybunnies.
What doesn’t feel different are the “reasons” for the loss being made on this forum.
Rewind 12 years ago and you could replay many of the same tag lines being put out last night and today with those following the France loss.
Forward pass aside, our tactics in the 2nd half in 07 were baffling and frustrating. Heard that today.
We missed experience - tick.
Leadership went missing and not just from the captain - tick.
Arrogance from coaches - I recall many saying Henry was so focused on the 2 AB XVs in 2006 that we never settled on one.
Strange selections leading in - Nonu and Weepu missing, Toeava in.
@Kruse said in Why this feels different...:
@gt12 said in Why this feels different...:
It was horrible walking past all those fucking crowing English fluffybunnies to leave the stadium.
THIS!
I sat down outside the stadium for about half an hour to get my shit together (unsuccessfully), and you could still hear bouts of that hateful “swing low” coming from inside.
Absolute fluffybunnies.
But with good reason to celebrate... their team was bloody good. The filthy bastard fluffybunnies.
I must say, all of the pommie fans I talked to, in the stadium and outside back in Tokyo were very nice. In turn we were very gracious. The guys sitting in front us were almost apologetic and couldn't believe they won. Well played
@ACT-Crusader said in Why this feels different...:
Rewind 12 years ago and you could replay many of the same tag lines being put out last night and today with those following the France loss.
Disagree. In 07 we got shafted by a perfect storm of poor game from us, dodgy refereeing and an 'up for it' French side.
This time around, we went 'ok' - didn't really shit the bed, just got thoroughly out played. THat, and in 07 we hadn't come off back to back wins, and put out a statement performance in a knockout game the week before.
I'd argue that this game was South Africa in the Semi in 2015. We just weren't as good, and not able to handle it. I re-watched that game again in the buildup to this tourney, and we got beaten up all over the park all night ... but did enough to come away. Critical drop goal from Carter, and a bunch of really good contributions (including SBW). This lot just aren't as good in tight games, and I don't think there's much shame in that
I watched the thing at my partner's place, who - before the game - asked me how I would be like if they lose, and I told her I'd be gloomy all day and probably for the next couple of days. Then when it all happened I somehow felt almost fine with it. I didn't watch rugby in 2007, so never had to see the France game, but the Lions series in 2017 felt horrible and somehow much, much worse for me. Yesterday was a well deserved loss, England played incredibly well, the ABs didn't, Owens didn't make any game deciding howlers (wasn't perfect, but who is?), and it was a simple case of the better team won. The Lions loss and then draw was much harder to swallow for me, I didn't feel they were deserved, especially considering SBW's stupid RC, Faumuina's "tackling in the air", and all that.
I don't know, I can just say I really don't like England, but have somehow no real problem with them being in the final. I really hope either South Africa (likable team, great national anthem) or Wales (new WC winner!) do it, though. Owen Farrell is still a dick, especially how he milked Whitelock's shove (Sam, you IDIOT!).
@nzzp England were “up for it” as well. We got dominated off the ball. Similar to 2007 when I saw French players desperately diving on the ball squirting out of rucks.
Owens clearly missed some English indiscretions when we were attacking. Same as Barnes in 07.
That second 40 against France was hard to watch as was last night.
@gt12 awesome post.
The worst part for me is we did have the game and tactics to be successful, we even saw them in this game. However, inexplicably whenever something worked successfully, it was very quickly put back in the box. That series of pick and go's in the second half that took us close to the tryline being a prime example (and eerily reminiscent of lions series). Once we got close, they oddly decided to just start throwing it wide to where the England defence was....and when that failed we never saw pick and go's again. Wtf?
@Bones said in Why this feels different...:
@gt12 awesome post.
The worst part for me is we did have the game and tactics to be successful, we even saw them in this game. However, inexplicably whenever something worked successfully, it was very quickly put back in the box. That series of pick and go's in the second half that took us close to the tryline being a prime example (and eerily reminiscent of lions series). Once we got close, they oddly decided to just start throwing it wide to where the England defence was....and when that failed we never saw pick and go's again. Wtf?
We also used the tactic to good effect in the QF. I dont believe the poms are that superior physically, I think we had enough skill and power to win, but we just played into their hands with poor selection and gameplan
@Bones said in Why this feels different...:
@canefan it was basically anti game plan. I think the state of the lineout is probably an apt description for the performance. Pathetic execution and appalling accuracy.
The plan was there, the selection was fine.
It was like all of the lessons we learned from 2007, with the senior player group and shared responsibility, were ignored. When the game went against us we couldn't right the ship
I feel really sanguine about it. It’s been a great run.
I’ll comment again after work tomorrow.
I’ll comment again after work next Monday when England win the thing.
@BartMan Agree that Akira's waste of talent is almost criminal. He was outstanding at the business end of NPC in 2018. Graham Henry likened Akira to Jonah Lomu.
Compare him with Billy Vunipola. Similar players, but for whatever reason Saracens and England have got Billy focussed and working very hard especially so in the six months or so. Akira not so much.
My point is that the cattle were there for NZ. Eddie spotted four years ago the players he wanted in his pack for the RWC knockouts and made damn sure they were fit and hungry what it mattered most. Lesson there perhaps for the next AB coach.
@BartMan said in Why this feels different...:
@Number-10 yeah we had 2 calls go to us, we could have really got a hiding, the worst game the ABs have collectively played in my memory I reckon. (1981 Bokke series).
I'd argue we were worse in the 1991 semi final against Australia.
@canefan said in Why this feels different...:
@Kruse said in Why this feels different...:
@gt12 said in Why this feels different...:
It was horrible walking past all those fucking crowing English fluffybunnies to leave the stadium.
THIS!
I sat down outside the stadium for about half an hour to get my shit together (unsuccessfully), and you could still hear bouts of that hateful “swing low” coming from inside.
Absolute fluffybunnies.
But with good reason to celebrate... their team was bloody good. The filthy bastard fluffybunnies.I must say, all of the pommie fans I talked to, in the stadium and outside back in Tokyo were very nice. In turn we were very gracious. The guys sitting in front us were almost apologetic and couldn't believe they won. Well played
Yep. One of the best things about rugby.
I'm still not going to stop throwing up a little in my throat every time I see a StGeorges cross for a few days but.
I know the ABs will have done plenty of analysis, but it feels like maybe we walked into the unknown last night having played England only once in five years. And expected to just carry on with that game - hence picking Scott Barrett. Suddenly an England side we didn't know started playing a game we hadn't seen, and no one could come up with any answers for it.
It's funny, if you'd asked me what would hurt more, the All Blacks or Black Caps coming up short in the WCs, I'd have said the ABs all day long.
But here we are. I'm still genuinely not over the CWC. That one really hurt for so many reasons, namely:
The combination of the multiple injustices and the very rare chances the BCs get to win tournaments has made that result impossible to swallow.
This ABs loss has none of those things. We were just outplayed by a team that played much better rugby on the night. In fact for us to win we would have had to steal that against the run of play, rather than really deserving it. We've also won the thing 3 times, and will get many more chances to win it again.
Don't get me wrong, it does hurt and I'm pretty bloody pissed at some of the decisions from the coaches and selectors that fed into this comprehensive defeat, which have been well covered already.
2007 hurt the most for me because I'm too young to remember 1987, so had grown up supporting the best team in the world that kept falling over at WCs. After getting so utterly screwed by one of the most incompetent reffing performances ever I was starting to doubt we'd ever win the damn thing again. Thank fuck for 2011 and 2015!
@No-Quarter Well said, sporting wise I don't know that I'll ever be over the 2019 CWC.
I'm probably going against the grain a bit here but on reflection this one hurts more than 2007 for me. There were factors that went into that loss that didn't happen here (forward pass, no penalties, both 10s limping off) and I don't have a problem with the 12 selection (Lucky Luke was just better at the time and was easily one of our best on the park in the match).
This match we selected poorly (no point going over them again), were out coached and then out played. We got beaten up and never looked like winning and we had a team that could win that match (I'm finding it odd that in the aftermath some are now pretending England were always going to win when that clearly wasn't in the air before the match).
What I do think is that I'm just a (wee) bit more mature and can handle the loss better than I did back in 95-07.
I'm not really a cricket fan so didn't feel the pain of that loss like others did, but my mate last night said the cricket loss was worse, but he woke up this morning and said that he feels equally as shit today.
@Rembrandt said in Why this feels different...:
Yep nailed it there. Nothing like those other losses. Beat by a better team on the day, in fact we were damn lucky as the scoreline flattered us.
Now get to watch the rest of the cup stress free.
Now if we don't perform in 2023 then that loss dread is probably sure to come back
I dunno, this feels a bit like 2003 - right down to the manner and margin of the loss and the opposition coach involved. England likely to be the tournament champs also.
My hope is that, like 2003, this heralds a fresh start for the coaching team and a change in attitude as to how we approach the game.
@sparky said in Why this feels different...:
My point is that the cattle were there for NZ. Eddie spotted four years ago the players he wanted in his pack for the RWC knockouts and made damn sure they were fit and hungry what it mattered most. Lesson there perhaps for the next AB coach.
Eddie has hoped the Vunipola boys and Tuilagi would be fit for the RWC for the majority of his time in charge - Mako and Billy were out for large chunks of 2017/2018, Manu missed 2015-2019.
When England played without them, they often struggled when their forwards were contained. In 2018 England had a 46% win ratio, losing to SA, NZ, Ireland, France, Scotland and Wales.
While Eddie has done a lot of good work, he took some big risks. Would we have tolerated Hansen losing games and hoping McKenzie was fit knowing there was a big hole to fill if he didn't recover?
Its different because I'm older and more mature (I think). I'm not gnashing my teeth at the world but I'm maybe more disappointed in ourselves than in previous failures.
It's very disappointing as I don't feel like they turned up.
2003 called and said Mitchell and Dean's want their strategy back.
In the aftermatch interviews, both Retallick and Beauden lamented not taking our opportunities. By which I assume fluffed counter attacks.
I'm lamenting that we ignore half our team in our strategy and assume teams will provide us with gilt edged counter attacking opportunities. I want an approach that puts destiny in our own hands, not an approach that turns an opponent's off day into a nightmare.
Very disappointing. Acceptable with a young naive team and coaching group in 2003, but inexcusable now.
More comprehensive than 2003 though, which at least had an early 12 to 14 point sliding doors moment to leave you wondering about 'psychic energy'. Saturday was comprehensive to the extreme.
England played a superb game of knockout football. Even that doesn't do it justice as it is good play regardless of whether it was knockout.
Selections, and rotation, dont bother me at all. Just red herrings. The strategy and mental game bother me.
@Rapido said in Why this feels different...:
Its different because I'm older and more mature (I think). I'm not gnashing my teeth at the world but I'm maybe more disappointed in ourselves than in previous failures.
******It's very disappointing as I don't feel like they turned up.
2003 called and said Mitchell and Dean's want their strategy back.
In the aftermatch interviews, both Retallick and Beauden lamented not taking our opportunities. By which I assume fluffed counter attacks.
I'm lamenting that we ignore half our team in our strategy and assume teams will provide us with gilt edged counter attacking opportunities. I want an approach that puts destiny in our own hands, not an approach that turns an opponent's off day into a nightmare.
Very disappointing. Acceptable with a young naive team and coaching group in 2003, but inexcusable now.
More comprehensive than 2003 though, which at least had an early 12 to 14 point sliding doors moment to leave you wondering about 'psychic energy'. Saturday was comprehensive to the extreme.
England played a superb game of knockout football. Even that doesn't do it justice as it is good play regardless of whether it was knockout.
Selections, and rotation, dont bother me at all. Just red herrings. The strategy and mental game bother me.
Your'e not the journo who asked that question to Hansen in the post match interview after the loss are you?
I don't agree at all..they turned up all right and wanted it as much as England but they were stunned by the English strategy to get the first king hit in first then nulify the best attacking side in the world by playing 20 players on the field for the rest of the game. As Reid said we gave it everything we had but couldn't play the game we wanted because they wouldn't let us. The first try rattled the ABs and they never recovered where as it gave the POMS the confidence they needed: Get in king hit first. Tick. Now stop the attack. Tick. Win the Semi. Tick.
@Rapido said in Why this feels different...:
It's very disappointing as I don't feel like they turned up.
...
I'm lamenting that we ignore half our team in our strategy and assume teams will provide us with gilt edged counter attacking opportunities. I want an approach that puts destiny in our own hands, not an approach that turns an opponent's off day into a nightmare.Very disappointing. Acceptable with a young naive team and coaching group in 2003, but inexcusable now.
Felt very like Dublin last year -we just didn't fire a short.
I'm a bit loathe to criticise the coaches too much though. They got the team up for two massive games already at this world cup. Even in the game on Saturday the selection and likely tactics weren't terrible - we shuold have been playing territory and attacking their lineout. Really don't know why they didn't execute though, was terribly disappointing.
Every time we got the ball, we just kicked it away and didn't contest, or just turned it over with poor ball security.
Also, it's clear the NH has caught up. Last RWC they were behind; they've taken their knocks, gone away and got better. Fair play to them, well done. Now we need to lift our game again to get back in front.
Come on Bokke!
@nzzp said in Why this feels different...:
Also, it's clear the NH has caught up. Last RWC they were behind; they've taken their knocks, gone away and got better. Fair play to them, well done. Now we need to lift our game again to get back in front.
Come on Bokke!
France, Scotland , Italy and Ireland still vary from average to dogshit. England and Wales have done well though.
@jegga said in Why this feels different...:
@nzzp said in Why this feels different...:
Also, it's clear the NH has caught up. Last RWC they were behind; they've taken their knocks, gone away and got better. Fair play to them, well done. Now we need to lift our game again to get back in front.
Come on Bokke!
France, Scotland , Italy and Ireland still vary from average to dogshit. England and Wales have done well though.
Japan....
