All Blacks vs Springboks I

@dice said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

having watched teh last two Bok tests it would be an enormously stupid error to pick an inferior all-round player just to negate one part of what the opposition does, and not look to making more of what we do well.

I wouldn't have Bridge in the 23, he is unnecessary.

We have a team full of finishers. We want someone who can create the opportunities.

well put, i really do miss people like B & C smith (and obviously others), sure they finished a lot themselves but i most fondly remember them just making those breaks/half beaks that then had two or three other feed off and finish

Our current four wings are scoring tries at almost unprecedented rates.

Rieko 30/42
Even the much maligned George 12/15
Will 11/8
Sevu 10/13

TOTAL 63 tries 78 tests 0.8 tries per test.

Doug Howlett got 49/62 at 0.79
Cully got 46/58 at 0.79
Goldie got 44/60 at 0.73
Big Jules got 46/64at 0.72
Joe Rok got 46/69 at 0.66
Jonah got 37/63 at 0.58
Bender got 39/84 at 0.46
Tana got 36/74 at 0.48

It's not that unusual for AB wingers to start their Test careers with a good try scoring rate. It's maintaining that strike rate after the first couple of years that seems to be quite tough.

These guys started out with fairly good try scoring rates.

Joe Rokocoko - 24 tries in first 16 tests
Julian Savea - 29 tries in first 25 tests
Tana Umaga - 22 tries in first 24 tests
Jonah Lomu - 14 tries in first 15 tests
Christian Cullen - 23 tries in first 23 Tests
Doug Howlett - 10 tries in first 11 Tests
Jeff Wilson - 20 tries in first 24 tests

Do/Should we start automatically dropping wingers at 20 tests?

@bones that is the front! I swear he has gills and from the side it's a 1/3 the width! (Or maybe it was a stunt double). If I could be arsed I'd find the camera shot and send it to you...

@pakman said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@crucial guess he looked better than Donald did in the 2011 RWC Final...

One of the all-time great AB moments: AB's in a dog-fight, nerves starting to get the best of them and on comes The Duck, shirt several sizes too small, for a penalty and says to McCaw "just give me the fucking ball".

Calmest dude on the pitch.

Maybe he was still pissed?

Nah, he's a Waiuku man, if living there doesn't get to them I don't know what will.

@Bones
ok Braydon Ennor Neck time.
Of course the only quick photo I found was him and a streaker but you'll see he has a giraffe-like neck (or a tiny head) cantilevering his head forward in profile.. just makes it look like an easy target to smash. Big legs, good frame for a midfielder, but weirdly long neck, wide from front, narrow in profile.

Anyway, he won't get injured again so I'll be glad to be proven wrong.

@nepia again, goes back to the plan we used that didn't utilise a strength of him being there, which wasn't really his fault

@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

having watched teh last two Bok tests it would be an enormously stupid error to pick an inferior all-round player just to negate one part of what the opposition does, and not look to making more of what we do well.

I wouldn't have Bridge in the 23, he is unnecessary.

We have a team full of finishers. We want someone who can create the opportunities.

well put, i really do miss people like B & C smith (and obviously others), sure they finished a lot themselves but i most fondly remember them just making those breaks/half beaks that then had two or three other feed off and finish

Our current four wings are scoring tries at almost unprecedented rates.

Rieko 30/42
Even the much maligned George 12/15
Will 11/8
Sevu 10/13

TOTAL 63 tries 78 tests 0.8 tries per test.

Doug Howlett got 49/62 at 0.79
Cully got 46/58 at 0.79
Goldie got 44/60 at 0.73
Big Jules got 46/64at 0.72
Joe Rok got 46/69 at 0.66
Jonah got 37/63 at 0.58
Bender got 39/84 at 0.46
Tana got 36/74 at 0.48

Different eras ... you can prove anything with stats but ...

Some of those guys (Tana, Bender, Cullen, Goldie?) were not pure wingers or moved.

Plus you are comparing current AB's in early career vs "greats" at career-end (Savea, Sivivatu, Roks, Bender etc would have amazing stats at 10, 20, 30 tests, yeah?)

Plus DC and Merthens were certainly better goal-kickers than we have now. DC taking a 3 from 40m was a pretty sure option vs say BB?

Maybe tactically defenses are far better organized so now ... proportionally meaning the risk/reward of going wide with the right timing becomes the best (often only?) try scoring option vs 15-20 years ago when defenses were more porous across the field. Witness all the cross kicking now too which is exactly this.

You triggered me :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy:

@booboo

Lead by 7(?) at halftime kinda close?

Admittedly, I was fuming as the ref was only reffing the ABs that day

@daffy-jaffy said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

Francois de Klerk

Who's this Francois?

No Weise, have they thrown the book at him? (EDIT: NOPE FFS that was a total red)

No Cheslin, and Le Roux still there, good news

@kruse said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@dice said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

having watched teh last two Bok tests it would be an enormously stupid error to pick an inferior all-round player just to negate one part of what the opposition does, and not look to making more of what we do well.

I wouldn't have Bridge in the 23, he is unnecessary.

We have a team full of finishers. We want someone who can create the opportunities.

well put, i really do miss people like B & C smith (and obviously others), sure they finished a lot themselves but i most fondly remember them just making those breaks/half beaks that then had two or three other feed off and finish

Our current four wings are scoring tries at almost unprecedented rates.

Rieko 30/42
Even the much maligned George 12/15
Will 11/8
Sevu 10/13

TOTAL 63 tries 78 tests 0.8 tries per test.

Doug Howlett got 49/62 at 0.79
Cully got 46/58 at 0.79
Goldie got 44/60 at 0.73
Big Jules got 46/64at 0.72
Joe Rok got 46/69 at 0.66
Jonah got 37/63 at 0.58
Bender got 39/84 at 0.46
Tana got 36/74 at 0.48

It's not that unusual for AB wingers to start their Test careers with a good try scoring rate. It's maintaining that strike rate after the first couple of years that seems to be quite tough.

These guys started out with fairly good try scoring rates.

Joe Rokocoko - 24 tries in first 16 tests
Julian Savea - 29 tries in first 25 tests
Tana Umaga - 22 tries in first 24 tests
Jonah Lomu - 14 tries in first 15 tests
Christian Cullen - 23 tries in first 23 Tests
Doug Howlett - 10 tries in first 11 Tests
Jeff Wilson - 20 tries in first 24 tests

Do/Should we start automatically dropping wingers at 20 tests?

Quite sweeping statement, but it seems the 'skill/pace wingers' (Goldie/Dougie) maintained rate better than the physical freaks (Jonah/Bus/Rocket)?

@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.

Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.

There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.

@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully! (I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City!

Shouldn't Kitsoff and Marx be starting?

@frank said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@daffy-jaffy said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

7 Albertus Smith, 6 Siyamthanda Kolisi

Kwagga Smith + Kolisi = Boks trying to speed the game up, or perhaps Mostert has just been shit at blindside.

Three backs on the bench.

Looks like they're reacting to the speed that we play at.

@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.

Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.

There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.

English WUM mode on

The problem is that all your flashy fast-boys with their nice hairdos outside back talent now aim to play anywhere else but wing, like 10/15 or 13, meaning bog-standard average excellent, reliable, hard-working wingers like George Bridge have to play there.

Obviously there is a need in NZ to look at raiding the South Seas Islands again internal talent development channels for future stars at wing.

:winking_face: :winking_face:

... Wing is never the problem area for the AB's.

Shag changing wingers for the RWC 2019 just seemed like he'd run out of ideas and was rolling the dice a bit.

@pakman said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@frank said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@daffy-jaffy said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

7 Albertus Smith, 6 Siyamthanda Kolisi

Kwagga Smith + Kolisi = Boks trying to speed the game up, or perhaps Mostert has just been shit at blindside.

Siya isn’t up to speed, but not the done thing to bench him.

I think the game has already sped up worldwide from the new refereeing interpretations at the ruck.

My take, the Boks just found this out big-time with two losses to Australia and are having to adapt on the fly. 7 for the Boks is blindside too isn't it? Kwagga at blindside?? ... wow.

@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.

Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.

There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.

@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully! (I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City!

yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards

I think its just a different approach now days. Where as i feel previously we'd see more tries built on several smaller breaks joined together and so you needed a couple of finishes and several "creators"

now we see finishes looking to score from a long way out and from almost any situation and so several finishes works well

none of that probably made sense and was also probably wrong

@mn5 looks like a wrestlers neck except he has small shoulders.

@booboo said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

and Gert Bezuidenhout

I remember watching those games with my dad and he was beside himself at the referee. At 13 I think I was old enough to know that the ref had no credibility.

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards

No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.

World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.

Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).

Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards

No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.

World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.

Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).

Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:

thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass

my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale

The danger is there is plenty of quality in that Boks side, if they can somehow sort their shit out in 7 days we could be up for quite a challenge. I'm hoping our form, confidence and fitness will give us an edge.

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards

No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.

World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.

Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).

Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:

thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass

my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale

I know, I said sorry in advance ...

If you listen to Australian fans after any win, at least 50% of their side is world class

I'm harsh on how I view world-class but at least I define it, because the term gets thrown around like confetti.

Almost any AB who's good enough to get even 10-20 caps would probably start in at least half the top tier sides, that's pretty much a given for me at all times.

Does that make (say) Victor Vito or Steven Luatua or Adam Thompson world class? Not for me ...

@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards

No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.

World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.

Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).

Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:

thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass

my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale

I know, I said sorry in advance ...

If you listen to Australian fans after any win, at least 50% of their side is world class

I'm harsh on how I view world-class but at least I define it, because the term gets thrown around like confetti.

Almost any AB who's good enough to get even 10-20 caps would probably start in at least half the top tier sides, that's pretty much a given for me at all times.

Does that make (say) Victor Vito or Steven Luatua or Adam Thompson world class? Not for me ...

fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the current guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs

I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:

Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.

@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit

Are these the guys that weren't even considered the best wingers in the British isles?

@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards

No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.

World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.

Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).

Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:

Rees-Zammit is potential only and has less of a test match body of work than Jordan.

Watson is terrible and the Boks proved that demoattably.

Cheslin, Rieko and probably Josh Adams in the order

When I predicted the Boks will lose to the Wallabies, everybody had a laugh. Well I predict the Boks have a very good chance on Saturday. All the signs are there for an upset. Never write them off. They got nothing to lose.

@bones I won't argue it ... pick your 6, I did say mine were "top of the head".

But my point was more that if you take a view that "world class" is really the cream of the crop internationally (which I do), I'm not sure currently a NZ winger makes it, apart from Rieko.

For clarity, I'd say Retallick, Whitelock, Smith are undoubtably world class. Probably BB, certainly he has been, and on form like Pumas 2 he is worldclass ...

Akira and Paps look like they have potential to be world class pretty soon.

@l_n_p i actually thought of a better way to word my thoughts, world class being those good enough to play on the world stage, ie international rugby

Those standing head and shoulders above other international players i would refer to as world beaters or something similar

@kiwiwomble We need formal rules on this, standardized across rugby forums and boards.

A citing panel for misuse of terms ...

The aussies will ask for exemptions so more of their players can be "world beaters" ... :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy:

@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....

Well there are a whole lot of beaters on here.

@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs

I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:

Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.

Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?

@cgrant said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs

I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:

Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.

Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?

Let's not forget Henry Paul, Thomas Waldrom.

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....

Tbh I actually did a serious terminology-agreement exercise like this with a huge and very passionate international community on Twitter (not rugby related).

1 slide, with 20 definitions and supporting examples.

F*ck it was SO hard going at first because so many can take it personally ... understandably in the area I was doing it ... until they really see you're open and trying to improve communication and establish common understandings, then you'd start to get so much really thoughtful feedback.

Took months, god knows how many iterations ... retweet, get more inputs, repeat.

In short, thanks but not again. Don't let me stop you though ... :winking_face:

@l_n_p im not doing it! it was your idea!

@bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@cgrant said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs

I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:

Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.

Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?

Let's not forget Henry Paul, Thomas Waldrom.

I think you're re-inforcing @Kiwiwomble's point George Bridge could just walk into a lot of Tier 1 international sides. I mean think about it, Ireland have James Lowe playing for them now ...?

Jesus there some clueless comments here, not all of them, but these leapt out. More stuff to be up on the changing room walls

This is not the same team that won the World Cup. Let's be very clear on that. They've lost a number of their players who have headed off overseas

SA freely pick from anywhere

And two years ago, they were playing a lot more open and expansive rugby than this team is showing us this year."

Obviously didn't watch the semi versus Wales

The fullback is fine; Willie le Roux is a very good player

Was

Why does Jesse Kriel not get a run? Lovely swerve and good player!

@machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:

Jesus there some clueless comments here, not all of them, but these leapt out. More stuff to be up on the changing room walls

This is not the same team that won the World Cup. Let's be very clear on that. They've lost a number of their players who have headed off overseas

SA freely pick from anywhere

And two years ago, they were playing a lot more open and expansive rugby than this team is showing us this year."

Obviously didn't watch the semi versus Wales

The fullback is fine; Willie le Roux is a very good player

Was

View embedded content

Is.

Very detailed analysis from Nick Bishop on The Roar, focussing on the breakdown, refereeing and Rassie. https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/09/22/how-the-springboks-hit-an-english-speed-bump-at-suncorp/

"Carley ... religiously applied the credo of the English Premiership; first, clear the tackler away; second, ensure that the first arriving defender is fully supporting their own bodyweight; third, show zero tolerance for cynical play. The outcome in the second half of the 2020 English Premiership season was a glut of ‘LQB’ (lightning-quick ball) for the attack, and ‘LQT’ (lightning-quick turnovers) for the defence. Both sides at Suncorp Stadium looked surprised to find themselves playing under a new set of rules, but it was Australia who adapted far more quickly and easily to them."

I'm pleasantly surprised to see English refs leading the charge on this and pushing it. I thought the Kiwi refs started strong on this then backed off (a little) during SRA and SRTT.

Plays massively into the strengths of the ABs who expect everyone from 1-15 to be able to win turnover ball at the breakdown. Aussies started seeing it in in SR TT and have adapted fast.

For England I expect Eddie may play a few combinations at 6-7-8 and lock with Itoje and Tom Curry the only given starters.

No law change that I know of, just referring existing laws in a better way :thumbs_up: