All Blacks 2022

A bit of a nothing article from AAP that's on RugbyPass. But really scrapping the bullshit for this starting line "After 12 Super Rugby titles, the Crusaders often are a reliable bellwether for the state of New Zealand rugby."

ABs period of real domination 2010~16, 0 Crusaders wins, ABs turn to shit 2017+ 5 Crusaders wins. You could start from 05 on, but that side were mentally weak, and needed a terrible loss in 07 to turn them around. 09 was also annus horribilus - lots of Crusaders wins there!

That's just a bullshit line, concerning signs have been around since we stuck with Hansen for an extra 2 years, lost the series to the Lions, and signed/resigned Foster!

@machpants I'm hoping that for the first time in 5-6 years the Crusaders AB's are pacing themselves. Taylor has previously played like a man possessed during Super rugby only to then limp through test matches. Whitelock doesn't appear to be putting it all the line at the moment. Mo'unga looks only slightly better than Garden-Bachop etc.

It's what I'm hoping anyway.

@toddy said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants I'm hoping that for the first time in 5-6 years the Crusaders AB's are pacing themselves. Taylor has previously played like a man possessed during Super rugby only to then limp through test matches. Whitelock doesn't appear to be putting it all the line at the moment. Mo'unga looks only slightly better than Garden-Bachop etc.

It's what I'm hoping anyway.

I don't care that they are being shown up. I think it is good for the ABs (if the selectors take notice)

Other sides are playing a more physical style against them and not allowing their weak runners and 'soaking' tacklers any leeway.

If this means that the ABs ditch the Bridges, Havilis, Taylors and Moodys then all the better.

Their real weakness is the loose forwards though. Lots of very busy but non-dominant players.

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

That's just a bullshit line, concerning signs have been around since we stuck with Hansen for an extra 2 years, lost the series to the Lions, and signed/resigned Foster!

How can you lose a series when each side won one game, lost one game and drew one game? If anything the All Blacks were clear winners of the series given the following a la 20/20 cricket tie breakers
Points scored 66 Points conceded 54
Ties scored 5 Tries conceded 3
Conversions 4 Conversions conceded 2

@higgins said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

That's just a bullshit line, concerning signs have been around since we stuck with Hansen for an extra 2 years, lost the series to the Lions, and signed/resigned Foster!

How can you lose a series when each side won one game, lost one game and drew one game? If anything the All Blacks were clear winners of the series given the following a la 20/20 cricket tie breakers
Points scored 66 Points conceded 54
Ties scored 5 Tries conceded 3
Conversions 4 Conversions conceded 2

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

@higgins said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

That's just a bullshit line, concerning signs have been around since we stuck with Hansen for an extra 2 years, lost the series to the Lions, and signed/resigned Foster!

How can you lose a series when each side won one game, lost one game and drew one game? If anything the All Blacks were clear winners of the series given the following a la 20/20 cricket tie breakers
Points scored 66 Points conceded 54
Ties scored 5 Tries conceded 3
Conversions 4 Conversions conceded 2

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Let's not forget the idiotic play at the end of test 3 (notwithstanding the "deal")

@machpants the lack of research in some rugby pass articles is bewildering. Click bait is all it is.

@higgins said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

That's just a bullshit line, concerning signs have been around since we stuck with Hansen for an extra 2 years, lost the series to the Lions, and signed/resigned Foster!

How can you lose a series when each side won one game, lost one game and drew one game? If anything the All Blacks were clear winners of the series given the following a la 20/20 cricket tie breakers
Points scored 66 Points conceded 54
Ties scored 5 Tries conceded 3
Conversions 4 Conversions conceded 2

Cos this happened

@junior said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

@higgins said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

That's just a bullshit line, concerning signs have been around since we stuck with Hansen for an extra 2 years, lost the series to the Lions, and signed/resigned Foster!

How can you lose a series when each side won one game, lost one game and drew one game? If anything the All Blacks were clear winners of the series given the following a la 20/20 cricket tie breakers
Points scored 66 Points conceded 54
Ties scored 5 Tries conceded 3
Conversions 4 Conversions conceded 2

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Let's not forget the idiotic play at the end of test 3 (notwithstanding the "deal")

Farking TJP. I'm still snippy about that, cost us the chance of a win in the series.

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Well he wasn't smart enough to come up with such a great move as "Israel Dagg to hit it up one out".

Oh fuck, thinking about that series makes me want to spew.

Anyway, Pita Gus Sowakula over Shannon Frizell.

@nzzp add in NMS's stretch of injuries leading up to that series aswell.

@nzzp yep I go along with you, he not that too bad I don't think.

@nzzp Crotty too, when he was out there, we were dealing to the Lions.

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.

So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?

Just trying to follow the logic.

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.

So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?

Just trying to follow the logic.

Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.

So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?

Just trying to follow the logic.

Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.

I thought 'the deal' came from a kickoff, with Kieran Read chasing hardout.

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.

So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?

Just trying to follow the logic.

Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.

I thought 'the deal' came from a kickoff, with Kieran Read chasing hardout.

Correct.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.

So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?

Just trying to follow the logic.

Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.

Adapting to the rush defense has proven to be not so easy for us. Five years on and we are still pretty much impotent against it. Have to give that Lions team credit.

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.

So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?

Just trying to follow the logic.

Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.

Adapting to the rush defense has proven to be not so easy for us. Five years on and we are still pretty much impotent against it. Have to give that Lions team credit.

There's no excuse for us to be so poor countering it... it's thoughtless to continue to keep running into a brick wall, you just increase your chances of turning over possession or getting pinged, especially when you are receiving slow ball from your forwards.
The Lions just used smothering defence, it was up to our playmakers to think their away around it as mentioned.

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.

So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?

Just trying to follow the logic.

Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.

Adapting to the rush defense has proven to be not so easy for us. Five years on and we are still pretty much impotent against it. Have to give that Lions team credit.

we did fine in the first test. Hit the rush at the interface between the ruck and the 10, lots of inside balls and diagonal running.

I don't think chips are the answer to rush, it's fast ruck ball. Recycle hard, go again, make the rush keep rushing and get tired. Reap the rewards at the end of the game. We just suffer int eh forwards, so get horrifically static ball, and our forwards are no longer as good ball players as the NH

It is interesting that everyone is pinpointing and talking about the time (Lions series) when it was obvious the ABs had stopped innovating and after that time the pack slowly caught up and now NZ rugby is in a pickle of sorts, behind the pack with only 18 test matches to go before a world cup.

You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

we did fine in the first test.

also looked good in the 2nd until SBW's card.

@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:

You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.

lots of good old fashioned runarounds too, like Sexton has been doing for years, to get the ball wider AND provide the defense with one more guy to think about rather than just aiming up and smashing blokes

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:

You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.

lots of good old fashioned runarounds too, like Sexton has been doing for years, to get the ball wider AND provide the defense with one more guy to think about rather than just aiming up and smashing blokes

Let's bring back some good old Going brothers triple scissors.

@crucial Sadly most people on the Fern would be too young to have ever seen them play live (not me though!) but they were certainly great to watch with their tricky moves coming when least expected.

Even a momentary glimpse of the old Okara Park with a crowd that would have pleased the North Auckland RFU (as it was known in those days) Treasurer.

@higgins surely TVNZ must have some tape of one of those moves.

@crucial There as a couple of Sid and Brian Going moves included in the youtube clip I have just this minute attached above in my earlier post. Next time I see Keith Quinn I will see if he can ask his acquaintances at TVNZ if they have any.

And here is a bit more on the Going family

This one refers to to Triple Sissors Move

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:

Just trying to follow the logic

That's a slippery slope to nowhere you're on there fella.

Oh and coaches have no bearing on anything.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@toddy said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants I'm hoping that for the first time in 5-6 years the Crusaders AB's are pacing themselves. Taylor has previously played like a man possessed during Super rugby only to then limp through test matches. Whitelock doesn't appear to be putting it all the line at the moment. Mo'unga looks only slightly better than Garden-Bachop etc.

It's what I'm hoping anyway.

I don't care that they are being shown up. I think it is good for the ABs (if the selectors take notice)

Other sides are playing a more physical style against them and not allowing their weak runners and 'soaking' tacklers any leeway.

If this means that the ABs ditch the Bridges, Havilis, Taylors and Moodys then all the better.

Their real weakness is the loose forwards though. Lots of very busy but non-dominant players.

A good, winning coach would have been able to predict those problems and sort them out in the first 1 or 2 games....

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

I read the opening paragraph, and had a grin, Reason is hardly a messiah on watching rugby.
I remember in 2015 when one Richie McCaw missed 2 tackles on Tevita Li in the Blues match (I think he was playing for Blues then), and every rugby forum etc was yelling he to bloody old,, dump him get in the newbies etc. Seems the coaches didn't read them then and doubt whether they will now.

@tim reading the end of that article about an oldies line up makes me realise what an anomaly Ben Smith was a decade ago, he didn't become a regular at test level until he turned 26

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

I read the opening paragraph, and had a grin, Reason is hardly a messiah on watching rugby.
I remember in 2015 when one Richie McCaw missed 2 tackles on Tevita Li in the Blues match (I think he was playing for Blues then), and every rugby forum etc was yelling he to bloody old,, dump him get in the newbies etc. Seems the coaches didn't read them then and doubt whether they will now.

To be fair, the coaches/selectors in 2015 had earned a bit more trust...

Of course, I haven't even clicked on the link, so I'm an authority.

@dan54 That was just further proof that he didn't give a shit about Super Rugby, making guys like Tevita Li look like world beaters.