All Blacks 2022

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

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O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

Poor pod structure combined with static players. Supporting players are in line with the ball carrier who starts from standing still and goes nowhere, support overruns or at the very least has to double back and/or has no momentum or stability.

Edit: oh and throw in awful option taking with abysmal handling, hey presto!

What's concerning me is our rate of basic errors has gone up - the quality of cleaning, the skill level with the ball, missing touch with kicks. poor box kicking, etc. It's the basics; winning lineout ball, kickoffs in the right place, lifters ready, getting the right players carrying around rucks, etc. So I don't think we are good at the basics at the moment.

Then add to that losing the possession battle because of the above and not dominating in the forwards. We saw the recipe for success in the second half against the French with 2 quick trys. Relying on kicking away possession, spending hours tackling and not having the ball and believing we can win by the odd counter attack needs to change.

@nzzp maybe it is because he is playing behind a good pack and structure with no slight to him as a player.

Feels a bit early but he certainly was very impactful around the field. His inside pass to set up the try was a highlight for me.

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:

Feels a bit early but he certainly was very impactful around the field. His inside pass to set up the try was a highlight for me.

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AS you say gt, a bit early , but he has been pretty impressive.

There definitely needs to be a refresh amongst the props. The time is up for Laulala and Tu’inukuafe, and there are questions about the quality of Bower and Ta'avao. Ireland seems to be selecting their props for their ability around the park as their scrum has been very average, particularly on the LH side. Now is as good a time as any to introduce some young props who can provide that much-needed ball-carrying.

As to Norris, he'll likely be back on the bench when Ross returns.

@Bovidae @gt12 not impressed by Hamilton Burr then?

@bones Nisbett and Marshall said he played really well. Any thoughts on Burr's scrummaging?

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke woudl Jordan really be in contention for a World XV though? Because that's where we started the discussion

Jordon would easily be in contention for a World XV... he's clearly a x-factor player, has pace to burn, reads situations really well, can create opportunities out of basically nothing.

@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:

Feels a bit early but he certainly was very impactful around the field. His inside pass to set up the try was a highlight for me.

ABs badly need a refresh at prop. Get him in the squad I say.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.

Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.

@crucial kind of agree...but i think there is more too it

Yes, if we'd really nailed down our pods and the quick clean then 100%...but we havent...so in a situation we're we just havent nailed down the timing for the quick clean and recycle...then we should throw in some more numbers for a more traditional clean and castle.

slow but secure ball is still better than no ball...which is what i see far too often, a little half break where the ball carrier gets isolated or a mistimed clean leaving the ball exposed. The old adage you have to earn the right, no point having a loosie or hooker out on the wing when their size could be better used in the ruck

think someone said earlier in the thread...we try and play better than we actually are

I think we will get there with props, although not perhaps before the World Cup.
You can see the talent around.

Lock is till the main problem I reckon.

And the coach..........

Reckon NZ has the players to beat anyone. But it won't matter who the ABs put on the field unless the playing strategy/style changes. What was good in 2015 is now way past its sell-by date.

@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.

The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.

Been saying pretty much the same since 2016. One positive is that Foster is at least trying to build combinations and giving players time to settle in.

That said, I'm not sure Havili is the the answer at 12. I'd expect Foster to give him a few games to see if he can kick on and if not, go for someone like TUJ or QT.

Lots of talk about the skills and basics in the AB's. For me, it isn't a lack of basic skills, it's that the basics go to pieces under pressure. Lost count of how many times we have started to claw our way back into a game and then there's a stupid knock-on, kick or brain-fart penalty which gifts momentum to the other team.

It's a head-space/leadership thing which is often going wrong.

@victor-meldrew it's the hangover from our golden era

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

Lots of talk about the skills and basics in the AB's. For me, it isn't a lack of basic skills, it's that the basics go to pieces under pressure. Lost count of how many times we have started to claw our way back into a game and then there's a stupid knock-on, kick or brain-fart penalty which gifts momentum to the other team.

It's a head-space/leadership thing which is often going wrong.

Sure, but when the basics go to pieces also under no pressure, then you have to question the skills.

@bones Richie used to talk about the red/blue head in regard to the mental game, I know his team had some all time greats in it, but are they putting enough into the mental aspect?

Just because there is no in game pressure, doesn't mean there isn't pressure, clearly we are not dealing with it to execute skills and make decisions in real game situations well enough.

I know Hammet was always criticised when he'd say the team was training well but couldn't replicate it onto the park when it mattered...

@taniwharugby The red/blue head thing is a Gilbert Enoka thing. Is he still with the team?

@dice I think he is, but maybe they havent been focusing as much on it, or if they have, there are deeper issues now?

I think the red/blue head is a larger mental thing as I did something very similar for work many years back, so assume he just implemented it or his version.

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.

The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.

Been saying pretty much the same since 2016. One positive is that Foster is at least trying to build combinations and giving players time to settle in.

That said, I'm not sure Havili is the the answer at 12. I'd expect Foster to give him a few games to see if he can kick on and if not, go for someone like TUJ or QT.

you and i see very different things, i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...not letting people settle, people in for one game...play ok...and then out, unless you are amazing straight off the bat he'll try someone else

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.

The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.

Been saying pretty much the same since 2016. One positive is that Foster is at least trying to build combinations and giving players time to settle in.

That said, I'm not sure Havili is the the answer at 12. I'd expect Foster to give him a few games to see if he can kick on and if not, go for someone like TUJ or QT.

you and i see very different things, i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...not letting people settle, people in for one game...play ok...and then out, unless you are amazing straight off the bat he'll try someone else

Can't say I agree. Ardie has consistently been the starting 8. Cane is captain and 7 except when injured in which case Papali'i is 7 (except when injured). 2020 Goodhue played 12. 2021 Havili played 12.

Frizell got almost all of 2020 at 6, in 2021 Akira played 6 for all 3 Bledisloes and both Bok games. The reason they rotated blindside on the end of year tour is frankly Akira's Bledisloe form did not translate to both Bok games - the reality is there is no answer at 6 right now.

I can see your point at 13 - to me the most frustrating piece there is not taking a punt on PUJ who looked sharp of the bench Bledisloe 2 Eden Park 2020.

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:

i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...

ALB was pretty much nailed on at 13 and Havili at 12. Foster changed that combination when he wanted to give Reiko game time at 13. (as an aside I'm not convinced 13 is ALB's best position). The loosies were pretty stable IIRC with Ardie at 8 and Akira at 6, though 7 swapped about a bit as Cane was injured.

Not saying Foster has his combinations right, but at least he's trying to build them and tweak them rather than wholesale changes week by week.

@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.

The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.

Been saying pretty much the same since 2016. One positive is that Foster is at least trying to build combinations and giving players time to settle in.

That said, I'm not sure Havili is the the answer at 12. I'd expect Foster to give him a few games to see if he can kick on and if not, go for someone like TUJ or QT.

you and i see very different things, i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...not letting people settle, people in for one game...play ok...and then out, unless you are amazing straight off the bat he'll try someone else

Can't say I agree. Ardie has consistently been the starting 8. Cane is captain and 7 except when injured in which case Papali'i is 7 (except when injured). 2020 Goodhue played 12. 2021 Havili played 12.

Frizell got almost all of 2020 at 6, in 2021 Akira played 6 for all 3 Bledisloes and both Bok games. The reason they rotated blindside on the end of year tour is frankly Akira's Bledisloe form did not translate to both Bok games - the reality is there is no answer at 6 right now.

I can see your point at 13 - to me the most frustrating piece there is not taking a punt on PUJ who looked sharp of the bench Bledisloe 2 Eden Park 2020.

Still not convinced about PUJ, I keen on him because he a Canes player, but haven't seen a lot to make me think he a test player.

@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:

I can see your point at 13 - to me the most frustrating piece there is not taking a punt on PUJ who looked sharp of the bench Bledisloe 2 Eden Park 2020.

Given it was a Bledisloe at Eden Park, not sure we should take much from that.

@dan54 he looked like a test player in 2020 when he dominated all his matchups as a starter playing centre, and then obviously made the All Blacks on the back of that form.

Then for some odd reason Holland decided to drop him the following year for Proctor and now we've only really seen PUJ in small doses. Frustrating really, he must have slept with Holland's daughter or something.

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:

i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...

ALB was pretty much nailed on at 13 and Havili at 12. Foster changed that combination when he wanted to give Reiko game time at 13.

Havili was really good to start, but then turned to custard. It's a pity - can see a role for him as a playmaking 12, but you couldn't be confident he'll get there based on teh second half of 22

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:

i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...

ALB was pretty much nailed on at 13 and Havili at 12. Foster changed that combination when he wanted to give Reiko game time at 13.

Havili was really good to start, but then turned to custard. It's a pity - can see a role for him as a playmaking 12, but you couldn't be confident he'll get there based on teh second half of 22

and who did we play first? shit teams

Did he even get to play against a Kerevi-led Wallaby midfield?

@mariner4life Kerevi did play the dead rubber Bledisloe 3 in Perth last year but that was with Lolesio at 10. ABs never played against Quade 10 / Kerevi 12 (who beat Boks twice)

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.

Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.

My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.

All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.

Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.

My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.

All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.

Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.

Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.

My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.

All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.

Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!

Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.

Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.

My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.

All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.

Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!

Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.

You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!

@crucial i dont really rate foster but thats a good call

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.

Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.

My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.

All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.

Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!

Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.

You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!

Would have been much better to have a TSF poll and we could have picked the successful candidate

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial i dont really rate foster but thats a good call

Foster hasn't won me over either but some of the stuff on here verges on stupid.

I would hope that with the amount of talking we have had about this, the level rises a bit higher than that of a blowhard at the pub espousing their great knowledge to those assembled around the leaner.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.

ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?

Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.

Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.

My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.

All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.

Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!

Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.

You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!

The same Ted that got bundled out at quarter final stage?