All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test

I spoke with Havili on Tuesday and he described his Covid experience as a head cold, declaring himself ready to go this week.

Caleb Clarke is yet to resume full training after the hamstring strain he suffered six weeks ago with the Blues.

Akira Ioane was held back last week due to a lingering foot injury but after finishing 2021 as the incumbent blindside, he is likely to slot into that role this week.

Possible All Blacks squad: George Bower, Codie Taylor, Ofa Tuungafasi, Brodie Retallick, Scott Barrett, Akira Ioane, Sam Cane, Ardie Savea, Aaron Smith, Beauden Barrett, Sevu Reece, David Havili, Rieko Ioane, Will Jordan, Jordie Barrett

Reserves: Samisoni Taukei'aho, Karl Tu'inukuafe, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Dalton Papalii, Folau Fakatava, Richie Mo'unga, Quinn Tupaea

@Tim be annoyed if they drop Tupaea for Havili, Tupaea earned another chance to start, Havili offers versatility so is actually a good option off the bench.

@taniwharugby yeah, these are the moments i feel use to be more common, something "happens" giving a new guy a shot (i know QT has played before)...he takes it and plays well and now its his to lose...i feel fozzie tends to go back to who he originally had in mind regardless of how the last game went resulting in the in and out of players we've seen over the last few years

Foster has talked a lot about how this year they will be focusing on building combinations more compared to previous 2 seasons so it will be particularly interesting what he does at 12.

Forget the selections, check out the title of the article

All Blacks v Ireland: Ian Foster's five big selection dilemmas for second test - The Sauce with Liam Napier

That is flat out plagiarism from the Fern.

If QT gets dropped after that performance thrn these selectors can get fucked

@mariner4life agreed

we talk about the selections that are made based on experience and the jump from super to international...well we should reward those that make the jump successfully

@mariner4life best back on the field on Saturday, definitely deserves another shot. I like the fact they are trying Jordie Barrett late in the game at 12 aswell to give him experience there at international level.

But.....according to Fozzie, when talking about RTS, he wants his 2nd fives to have a "triple threat" - running, passing, kicking. If he has that in mind still, then he'll probably choose Havili. QT deserves another start though.

The problem with Napier's team is that if Havili starts I don't see the point of having Tupaea on the bench. Rieko would need to cover winger which means Havili or (more likely) Tupaea then moves out to centre. It would be better to just have Fainga’anuku on the bench (wing/centre) and use JB as the backup 2nd 5 if required. Less disruption.

@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@mariner4life best back on the field on Saturday, definitely deserves another shot. I like the fact they are trying Jordie Barrett late in the game at 12 aswell to give him experience there at international level.

He did ok, but best back on the field?

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

Foster has talked a lot about how this year they will be focusing on building combinations more compared to previous 2 seasons so it will be particularly interesting what he does at 12.

So I guess the question is if Havili and Goodhue didn’t get COVID would QT have been picked to partner Ioane? And is that the combination they want/wanted?

For this test I think there should be minimal changes where possible.

@Bovidae hasn’t QT played some 13 and even wing?

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

Foster has talked a lot about how this year they will be focusing on building combinations more compared to previous 2 seasons so it will be particularly interesting what he does at 12.

So I guess the question is if Havili and Goodhue didn’t get COVID would QT have been picked to partner Ioane? And is that the combination they want/wanted?

For this test I think there should be minimal changes where possible.

@Bovidae hasn’t QT played some 13 and even wing?

He can play both, but he's pretty dicey at 13 - even worse on defense.

QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.

I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.

@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.

I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.

Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually, so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level. We really need to move on.

I'm also not a fan of picking a bench player for their versatility. Yes we need to cover as many positions as possible, but players on the bench should have the ability to make an impact when they come on.

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.

I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.

Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually, so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level. We really need to move on.

I'm also not a fan of picking a bench player for their versatility. Yes we need to cover as many positions as possible, but players on the bench should have the ability to make an impact when they come on.

That’s why Marc Ellis went to league.

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.

I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.

Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually, so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level. We really need to move on.

I'm also not a fan of picking a bench player for their versatility. Yes we need to cover as many positions as possible, but players on the bench should have the ability to make an impact when they come on.

god thats a depressing state to be in

i don't mind a certain level of versatility, but more like 15/14 or 15/10 or 12/13...limited utility

@MN5 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.

I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.

Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually, so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level. We really need to move on.

I'm also not a fan of picking a bench player for their versatility. Yes we need to cover as many positions as possible, but players on the bench should have the ability to make an impact when they come on.

That’s why Marc Ellis went to league.

thats what it feels like when we have guys that dont specialise, feels like an bog standard like of league backline

@Crazy-Horse yeah I thought he was, he had a very tidy game. R Ioane probably matched him as he also had a very sound performance.

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level

Is he though?

Of his tests he has played mainly 12 hasn't he, he has utility value, although aside from his debut at FB largely untested?

The coaches clearly rate him at 12, I don't, but see he could cover several positions from the bench.

All being fit, I'd have him behind Goodhue and Tupaea at 12, and even RTS too who has highest ceiling of the 4 IMO.

i really wish the AB's coaches would learn there is often a difference between a good bench/utility and a starter

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

i really which the AB's coaches would learn there is often a difference between a good bench/utility and a starter

I’m gonna have to be a grammar Nazi there as my eyes are hurting

wish

@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

i really which the AB's coaches would learn there is often a difference between a good bench/utility and a starter

I’m gonna have to be a grammar Nazi there as my eyes are hurting

wish

corrected....but that would be spelling....not grammar

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.

I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.

Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually, so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level. We really need to move on.

I'm also not a fan of picking a bench player for their versatility. Yes we need to cover as many positions as possible, but players on the bench should have the ability to make an impact when they come on.

I don’t think that’s the case. Since returning to the ABs last year he has only been used at 2nd 5. There was an issue with 2nd 5 with Laumape not being preferred and an injury to ALB.

Even when he’s come off the bench, eg France test he played at 2nd 5 despite replacing Jordan. They moved other players.

I think his best is definitely good enough and it’s not his versatility of being able to cover other positions that is the reason they select him, but that he provides a different type of 2nd 5 to Goodhue, ALB and QT.

For me Havili is a starting player or not in the 23.

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

For me Havili is a starting player or not in the 23.

Agreed

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually,

Come on man. I get everyone likes to pile in on Dave because he ended last season pretty shabbily - but that's just not true.

A few seasons ago he was the best fullback in super rugby... for the winning side. Last year he was the best 12 in the country, but ended up not working out for the ABs towards the end.

Who's to say he couldn't have done exactly the same role Tupaea did on Saturday? New game plan and all...

He's got some excellent attributes and if we can find a way to have him shine like he does for the saders then it could be great for the ABs. His vision and distribution is brilliant.

The question is do we see Havs as our 12 come WC, clearly the Fern does not think so. QT, ALB, RTS, Goodhue are better options and should be getting the time there. I am slightly more concerned about 13 at the moment as RI is turning into Aaron Smith in that there is daylight between him and the next player. They missed a trick not bringing Sullivan into the squad IMO.

@ACT-Crusader TBH, none of Goodhue, Tupaea, Havili really seem like impact players from the bench.

@ACT-Crusader they definitely think 12 is his best position, but I think they like the fact he can cover multiple positions even as a starter as it makes it easier for them to pick their bench players when those extra positions are covered already. I'm also not convinced his best is good enough, I'd say adequate, though he hasn't really proven himself against top tier opposition. Was good against the Tier 2 teams and decent against the Wallabies then got badly found out after that.

@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

If QT gets dropped after that performance thrn these selectors can get fucked

Totally agree. Havili may have more all-round game but has a tendency to go flaky under pressure. QT was absolutely rock solid last week against some world-class opponents who will be really up for it this week.

We'll need that composure. Foster should stick with him.

@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

The question is do we see Havs as our 12 come WC, clearly the Fern does not think so. QT, ALB, RTS, Goodhue are better options and should be getting the time there. I am slightly more concerned about 13 at the moment as RI is turning into Aaron Smith in that there is daylight between him and the next player. They missed a trick not bringing Sullivan into the squad IMO.

They’ve got Goodhue in the squad as a midfield option.

Ioane is still only 25 so has years of rugby ahead of him. The more game time the better in my view. The odd rest here or there, but if we get 103 tests out of him like Nugget, then that is a very good thing for AB rugby.

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

Ioane is still only 25 so has years of rugby ahead of him. The more game time the better in my view

That's actually quite scary when you think at how he's developed as a 13 in the last year.

@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually,

Come on man. I get everyone likes to pile in on Dave because he ended last season pretty shabbily - but that's just not true.

A few seasons ago he was the best fullback in super rugby... for the winning side. Last year he was the best 12 in the country, but ended up not working out for the ABs towards the end.

Who's to say he couldn't have done exactly the same role Tupaea did on Saturday? New game plan and all...

He's got some excellent attributes and if we can find a way to have him shine like he does for the saders then it could be great for the ABs. His vision and distribution is brilliant.

who are you and what have you done with Bones?

@Victor-Meldrew given historically our midfielders really don't hit thier straps until 27 or so...

Havili seems to have taken the main brunt of the ABs failing at the end of the season last year while others have been more "teflon-like" in regards to fan dissatisfaction. QT didn't fire a shot at the end of last season either. Havili has shown he is a quality 2nd five at the beginning of 2021 test season and in the final stages of 2022 SR where he was the complete package.
I am not sure he is the best in combination with BB though.......

@Old-Samurai-Jack thats actually fair, i remember thinking our 9/10 was taking an absolute AGE in the france game to feed the backline and spent the whole game just shovelling shit onto the midfield well behind the advantage line and often with several defender bearing down on them, real hospital pass stuff

@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually,

Come on man. I get everyone likes to pile in on Dave because he ended last season pretty shabbily - but that's just not true.

A few seasons ago he was the best fullback in super rugby... for the winning side. Last year he was the best 12 in the country, but ended up not working out for the ABs towards the end.

Who's to say he couldn't have done exactly the same role Tupaea did on Saturday? New game plan and all...

He's got some excellent attributes and if we can find a way to have him shine like he does for the saders then it could be great for the ABs. His vision and distribution is brilliant.

He's like Mo'unga really. Looks a million bucks in SR and against the lesser teams, but as soon as he is faced with an organised and committed defense he goes missing. I'd really love for both of those players to step up against the top teams, but right now if they were starting together I'd be filled with dread.

Well you judge QT on jis last outing in black, he has earnt another shot.

Havili had chances last year, maybe he was fatigued with the midfield load, but did struggle when the heat came on, so just cos he played well in the back end of super does that mean he should move ahead of QT in black?

I know the coaches are big on rewarding encumbants not "punishing" them for injuries (illness) but it shouldn't be about being fair, it isn't school boy rugby anymore, you start the best 15 you can each week.

That said, I expect the coaches had a plan for the midfield, covid butt fucked that, so they will no doubt fall back on that plan, which I expect will see DH and/or JG start in the midfield...hopefully not together as that means JG is at 13 and unless he was keeping his powder dry at super, he appears to have lost another yard of pace that he couldn't afford to lose.

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually,

Come on man. I get everyone likes to pile in on Dave because he ended last season pretty shabbily - but that's just not true.

A few seasons ago he was the best fullback in super rugby... for the winning side. Last year he was the best 12 in the country, but ended up not working out for the ABs towards the end.

Who's to say he couldn't have done exactly the same role Tupaea did on Saturday? New game plan and all...

He's got some excellent attributes and if we can find a way to have him shine like he does for the saders then it could be great for the ABs. His vision and distribution is brilliant.

who are you and what have you done with Bones?

Bonesetta knows her rugby.

He must be in the shitter and left his laptop open.

@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

Havili seems to have taken the main brunt of the ABs failing at the end of the season last year while others have been more "teflon-like" in regards to fan dissatisfaction. QT didn't fire a shot at the end of last season either. Havili has shown he is a quality 2nd five at the beginning of 2021 test season and in the final stages of 2022 SR where he was the complete package.
I am not sure he is the best in combination with BB though.......

Yeah, it's kinda strange how Tupaea is all of a sudden to the manor born, after playing well against a crumbling Ireland, but DH is dismissed because he was only good against Aus.. Yet QT amounted to sweet fuck all last year too. I'm pretty confident even Bridge would have looked a star last week.

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:

The question is do we see Havs as our 12 come WC, clearly the Fern does not think so. QT, ALB, RTS, Goodhue are better options and should be getting the time there. I am slightly more concerned about 13 at the moment as RI is turning into Aaron Smith in that there is daylight between him and the next player. They missed a trick not bringing Sullivan into the squad IMO.

They’ve got Goodhue in the squad as a midfield option.

Ioane is still only 25 so has years of rugby ahead of him. The more game time the better in my view. The odd rest here or there, but if we get 103 tests out of him like Nugget, then that is a very good thing for AB rugby.

I may not have expressed my concern properly, I am very happy with RI but what happens if he gets injured. My concern is his backup. Remember the 2003 WC when Tana got injured, didn't they use Panadol or someone else and it was a bit of a disaster?

I guess they do have ALB that I am forgetting is a good 13.