All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider

@Kiwiwomble Ta'avao has always been a grub, he finally got caught.

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend

I changed my mind on Angus. Highlights below, 4.47 in.

He advances, dips slightly and then stays upright. If he'd slowed down he'd probably get away with a yellow for being passive. But the movement forward is what's goign to get him in trouble with the laws they way they are.

also, all this and we don't talk about the shitty ruck play by Ireland lying long back from rucks. It's classic Gatland ploy, slowing ruck speed... cynical as shit, but right on the edge of legality. Smart play.

AT was obviously an accident, you don't try and tackle people with your face. If he was trying to lead with the head he would have use his forehead not his nose. As @taniwharugby says, reds used to be for deliberate acts of filth, now they are being used for what are clearly accidents in a fast paced, high contact sport (no other sport in the world compares to rugby in this regard). If we're giving reds for AT, then there's going to be plenty more reds dished out as players collide with each other, and plenty more games ruined as a contest.

Are fans really OK with that?

@No-Quarter he take a total of one step between the pass the "tackle"...thats a fraction of a second

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@No-Quarter he take a total of one step between the pass the "tackle"...thats a fraction of a second

enough time to try and pull out a bit, and get more passive as he was in teh wrong body position.

It's tough, but he was pushing up hard to close the time and space down. That's his job, but it brings a degree of responsibility.

Reckless at worst, but in the current environment, that's a correct Red card. We should talk in the state of the game thread about whether it should be or not. The game's a bit fucked at the moment.

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend

I changed my mind on Angus. Highlights below, 4.47 in.

He advances, dips slightly and then stays upright. If he'd slowed down he'd probably get away with a yellow for being passive. But the movement forward is what's goign to get him in trouble with the laws they way they are.

also, all this and we don't talk about the shitty ruck play by Ireland lying long back from rucks. It's classic Gatland ploy, slowing ruck speed... cynical as shit, but right on the edge of legality. Smart play.

View embedded content

Finally

The attacker changed direction, so too the defender.

The defender has both arms around the attacker ready to make the tackle.

The attacker’s movements were quicker than the defender’s, and the defender came in too high.

Put those two factors together and you have what transpired - head on head contact.

Did the defender purposefully aim for the head?

No

Did it happen due to (lack of) speed of tackle execution?

Yes

RC

If you don't want to see this happen again, then select smallish forwards like Blackwell, Kirifi or Riccitelli.:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?

Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.

We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.

I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.

Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.

Been saying this for some time now.

This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.

If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.

If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.

Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.

Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.

That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.

Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.

Tackle zone is a coaching problem

Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.

The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.

@MiketheSnow why do you hate rugby considering you're welsh??

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@Dan54 I'm heading along so hopefully we put out an inspired performance.

Too many Canes….supporters

Enjoy the game mate, hope it’s a good one.

@stodders Structure = strategy = coaching = sack Foster and his team

@MrDenmore said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@stodders Structure = strategy = coaching = sack Foster and his team

Looking at that video, Bower had a couple of misses, one was from a good step from the Irish hooker.

The rest confirm what was observed on the week. Tu'ungafasi had an incredibly poor game, but Taylor was not far behind. Ireland targeted him, especially his outside shoulder. Both were a liability on defence.

Based on their performances, dropping one or both would not come as a surprise to either of them. ST to start with Coles on the bench. Can Bower cover tighthead to allow Ross to start at loosehead? Or is that too much of a risk?

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@Dan54 I'm heading along so hopefully we put out an inspired performance.

Too many Canes….supporters

Enjoy the game mate, hope it’s a good one.

Cheers mate, here’s hoping the wind and rain stays away.

Another thing worth mentioning is how Ireland have started each half in the 2 tests so far. It has been eerily similar to how England started the WC semi in 2019.

Ireland have been running multi-phase patterned moves and have reaped the rewards. Coincidence? Irish energy levels would be highest in these periods and they are putting everything into their attack at the beginning of each half to obtain an advantage. So far, it has worked.

IMO, the ABs counter this by taking a longer term approach to the game and use the kicking game to suffocate Ireland. Make them play their way out of their territory. Don't give them easy metres or easy kicks to exit.

Ireland team to face NZ Maori tomorrow has been named:

15 Michael Lowry (Banbridge/Ulster) 1
14 Jordan Larmour (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) 30
13 Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) (capt) 97
12 Stuart McCloskey (Bangor/Ulster) 6
11 Jimmy O’Brien (Naas/Leinster) *
10 Ciaran Frawley (Skerries/Leinster) *
9 Craig Casey (Shannon/Munster) 5

1 Jeremy Loughman (Garryowen/Munster) *
2 Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 20
3 Tom O’Toole (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 2
4 Joe McCarthy (Dublin University/Leinster) *
5 Kieran Treadwell (Ballymena/Ulster) 7
6 Cian Prendergast (Connacht) *
7 Nick Timoney (Banbridge/Ulster) 2
8 Gavin Coombes (Young Munster/Munster) 2

Replacements:

16. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 27
17. Ed Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 6
18. Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 24
19. Ryan Baird (Dublin University/Leinster) 8
20. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 29
21. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 98
22. Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Munster) 34
23. Mack Hansen (Connacht) 5

So Earls or Larmour won't be starting and Hansen on the bench looks like the coaching group want him to get more game time under his belt.
Herring, Bealham, Conan, Murray, Carbery get to go again, and looks like Baird could be the back-up lock.

@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

Official's

New Zealand v Ireland
Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
ARs: Karl Dickson (RFU) & Christophe Ridley (RFU)
TMO: Tom Foley (RFU

Have to say I'm pretty keen to see Barnes in the middle after his performance in the MAB vs IRE 1st Test. I thought he managed that game well.

Me too mate, I actually like the way Barnes refs, from what I have seen of him in NH comp looks to be a reasonably calm ref.

Doesn't muck about, tries to keep the game flowing, friendly with the players while not taking any crap, seems to communicates well and explains his decisions clearly. Become a very good ref now he's learned to spot forward passes

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?

Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.

We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.

I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.

Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.

Been saying this for some time now.

This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.

If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.

If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.

Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.

Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.

That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.

Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.

Tackle zone is a coaching problem

Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.

The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.

View image

100% serious

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@MiketheSnow why do you hate rugby considering you're welsh??

Ha ha

I loves it. Best game in town.

Evolve or die. It's dinosaur time.

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?

Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.

We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.

I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.

Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.

Been saying this for some time now.

This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.

If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.

If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.

Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.

Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.

That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.

Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.

Tackle zone is a coaching problem

Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.

The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.

View image

100% serious

Penalise players that attempt to intercept, charge down kicks etc? Those events have won games.

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?

Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.

We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.

I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.

Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.

Been saying this for some time now.

This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.

If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.

If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.

Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.

Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.

That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.

Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.

Tackle zone is a coaching problem

Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.

The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.

View image

100% serious

Penalise players that attempt to intercept, charge down kicks etc? Those events have won games.

You penalise the players who fail to do these things and subsequently

1. make contact with the opposition in what is currently deemed to be a dangerous / illegal way

2. create an advantage for the defending team

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?

Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.

We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.

I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.

Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.

Been saying this for some time now.

This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.

If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.

If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.

Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.

Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.

That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.

Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.

Tackle zone is a coaching problem

Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.

The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.

View image

100% serious

Penalise players that attempt to intercept, charge down kicks etc? Those events have won games.

Especially someone like Barrett. Imagine if he hadn't gone for the intercept in the two tests against Ireland. Ireland would likely have scored in both situations.

@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

NZ do have the players to be the leading team again. But the players currently at the coaching team's disposal are either not capable of carrying out the game plan being asked of them on a consistent basis or the game plan is not designed to bring out the best of the players available.

Salient point and the answer is probably 50-50. BB's kicking has never been his strongest point and enough about Foster.

@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?

Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.

We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.

I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.

Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.

Been saying this for some time now.

This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.

If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.

If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.

Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.

Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.

That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.

Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.

Tackle zone is a coaching problem

Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.

The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.

View image

100% serious

Penalise players that attempt to intercept, charge down kicks etc? Those events have won games.

Especially someone like Barrett. Imagine if he hadn't gone for the intercept in the two tests against Ireland. Ireland would likely have scored in both situations.

100%

He was in a position to 'positively' change the outcome of the Irish attack and he succeeded. And was rightly lauded for it.

Marcus Smith was never in a position to intercept the pass and attempted to 'negatively' change the outcome.

He was penalised.

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

NZ do have the players to be the leading team again. But the players currently at the coaching team's disposal are either not capable of carrying out the game plan being asked of them on a consistent basis or the game plan is not designed to bring out the best of the players available.

Salient point and the answer is probably 50-50. BB's kicking has never been his strongest point and enough about Foster.

OK. But there are enough good players to build a champion team. NZ is short on world class players right now, so the focus has to be on getting the most out of the sum of its parts. The players need simpler messages IMO. They are instinctive players who aren't used to overly complicated structures, unlike the Irish who are quite the opposite. Test 1 showed what happens to Ireland if you take the structure away. They capitulated.

Jesus, Isaac Boss on the Breakdown.

I’ll give him credit, he’s 100% Irish.

So I didn't manage to watch more than the first 20, the signal strength in Italy was a killer for lagging and I gave up.

Have trawled the thread, and as such have adopted the Fern majority position of outrage and disgust.

One question, I see a few talking about QT being dropped for this week, debating whether DH or JG should come in (or even JB). Is he injured?

Reading the thread, it sounds like QT had a shocker, but in his defense, he was outstanding last week and its never fun to play in the inside channels when the pack is getting dominated.

Why are we ready to send him to the sidelines already? Is "one bad game and you're out" the right message for these guys?

@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

So I didn't manage to watch more than the first 20, the signal strength in Italy was a killer for lagging and I gave up.

Have trawled the thread, and as such have adopted the Fern majority position of outrage and disgust.

One question, I see a few talking about QT being dropped for this week, debating whether DH or JG should come in (or even JB). Is he injured?

Reading the thread, it sounds like QT had a shocker, but in his defense, he was outstanding last week and its never fun to play in the inside channels when the pack is getting dominated.

Why are we ready to send him to the sidelines already? Is "one bad game and you're out" the right message for these guys?

Don’t think he was too bad myself. The worst back by a country Mile was the unfortunate Leicester. Just looked all at sea. I think he’ll learn from it and bounce back but he can’t go again this weekend.

As much as I’d like to see RTS get a game I don’t think this week is the right match now that it’s a decider. Has to be QT, Havili or JB, Goodhue at a pinch. One option would be to put RI back to 11 then you could have DH and JG in the centres.

What I would select

Bower, Taukeiaho, Laulala

Retallick, Whitelock

Barrett, Sotutu, Savea

Smith, Barrett

Havili, Goodhue

Ioane, Jordan, Reece

res: Ross, Coles, Tuungafasi, Ioane, Papili, Fakatava, Mo’unga, Barrett

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend

I changed my mind on Angus. Highlights below, 4.47 in.

He advances, dips slightly and then stays upright. If he'd slowed down he'd probably get away with a yellow for being passive. But the movement forward is what's goign to get him in trouble with the laws they way they are.

also, all this and we don't talk about the shitty ruck play by Ireland lying long back from rucks. It's classic Gatland ploy, slowing ruck speed... cynical as shit, but right on the edge of legality. Smart play.

View embedded content

Me, too.

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:

@No-Quarter he take a total of one step between the pass the "tackle"...thats a fraction of a second

The rapid step forward is with a view to tackling. He doesn't dip, misjudges completely and catches Ringrose with chin.

Ringrose has changed direction obviously before AT steps forward.

For me, twenty minute card, and then replacement.

@voodoo Tupaea had a bad case of the dropsies. Apart from that he was okay - and dropping ball is uncharacteristic for him, he doesn't drop a lot in general - but every turnover was costing us, so it was shithouse.
No need for the scrapheap just yet, it's not like he's 30+ and has been on a downward trajectory for the last 3 years.