Foster, Robertson etc

@nzzp said in Foster must go:

It's also a fair point that the problem goes deeper than the coach. We are not producing the quality of player we used to, and others are. This is particularly evident in the tight forwards. Addressing that is critical for NZ rugby over the next few years. We have to innovate and get back to the front of the pack.

is this self perpetuating by the type of play and players we have been selecting for the past 4 or 5 years and how we have been playign them?

Possibly become lazy, when almost all our tighties were superior in skill to almost any counterpart...maybe the success of BR & SW stunted the growth there, we stopped looking for ball runners in our front row, which to me has been a huge issue for BR & SW shouldering more load.

@nzzp said in Foster must go:

@Chris Robertson is the leading contender, and I'd pick him to try and turn the ship around. He's got the best record of available people, and should get the keys. He's not zero risk though, I'd still like to see him succeed in a different environment. Sir Graham was right, but we're out of options

Like Deans, he's really only coached in a controlled healthy environment. Deans was reasonably toxic at the top level with Mitchell despite his success with the Crusaders.

It's also a fair point that the problem goes deeper than the coach. We are not producing the quality of player we used to, and others are. This is particularly evident in the tight forwards. Addressing that is critical for NZ rugby over the next few years. We have to innovate and get back to the front of the pack.

Our biggest export seems to be coaches now, and rugby IP

Yes I did mention I agreed it goes deeper than the coach but it’s a start.
Anyone coming in to replace Foster has risk because it could be a bigger mess than we can imagine.

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@nzzp said in Foster must go:

@Chris Robertson is the leading contender, and I'd pick him to try and turn the ship around. He's got the best record of available people, and should get the keys. He's not zero risk though, I'd still like to see him succeed in a different environment. Sir Graham was right, but we're out of options

Like Deans, he's really only coached in a controlled healthy environment. Deans was reasonably toxic at the top level with Mitchell despite his success with the Crusaders.

It's also a fair point that the problem goes deeper than the coach. We are not producing the quality of player we used to, and others are. This is particularly evident in the tight forwards. Addressing that is critical for NZ rugby over the next few years. We have to innovate and get back to the front of the pack.

Our biggest export seems to be coaches now, and rugby IP

Yes I did mention I agreed it goes deeper than the coach but it’s a start.
Anyone coming in to replace Foster has risk because it could be a bigger mess than we can imagine.

There are few options. All of the other contenders are contracted to other countries until after 2023. Unless the NZRFU risk throwing Gatland Schmidt and Fozz together

@Chris although almost like he gets a free roll too!

Whoever steps in (if somethign comes of this, that I am doubtful of) should have a pretty good chance to get some good terms.

@Chris said in Foster must go:

Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.

No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.

Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.

Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?

As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow

A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.

No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.

Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.

Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?

As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow

A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.

I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.

No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.

Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.

Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?

As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow

A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.

I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.

If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble

@canefan said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.

No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.

Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.

Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?

As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow

A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.

I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.

If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble

Yep me too

@voodoo said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

@mencey said in Foster must go:

This article says it all:

View embedded content

For me just reads as another "Razor's the Savior" article by a bloke who thinks, somewhat arrogantly IMO, NZ players are a cut above the rest of the world when they clearly aren't anymore. Would have a bit more weight if he'd mentioned Robinson's U20 coaching fiasco in 2016 and while he might be a good choice, he doesn't walk on water.

No, the problems go much deeper than just the Coaching set-up and they need addressing as well.

Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
The bloke hasn't had a chance in the HC job yet,but has won almost everything he has coached.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Won 2 NPC titles only coached Canterbury for 3 years,Super titles 6 I believe..
He has one thing going for him he wins titles and the percentage of wins is a lot higher than Fosters.
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow.

I also wouldn't ever bag someone on their U20 record. Those sides come together last minute and you have very little control.

Cron had the Australia U20s in Georgia, and they didn't win - they had to deal with kit not showing up at all, last minute player withdrawals because provinces matter more apparently, and close losses when you have kids freeze in the headlights.

Nz setup might be better, but there is still a lottery element to it

Staggering that any U20 coach has to put up with that. U20 teams are key to the development of Test players in France and other countries and treated accordingly. Has to be for NZ as well.

If the sort of thing you've posted is the main reason for Razor's 2016 NZ U20 being dumped out of the pool stage in the 2016 U20 tournament, then it's an excellent example of a root cause problem which needs to be fixed. And it may take some time for the results to show up in AB results

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@canefan said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.

No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.

Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.

Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?

As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow

A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.

I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.

If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble

Yep me too

And I'm no Razor fan boy. But his record commands respect. Seems like a player's coach

@canefan said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@canefan said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.

No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.

Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.

Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?

As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow

A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.

I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.

If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble

Yep me too

And I'm no Razor fan boy. But his record commands respect. Seems like a player's coach

It doesn't have to be Razor just clear out this clown show.

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@canefan said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@canefan said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.

No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.

Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.

Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?

As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow

A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.

I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.

If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble

Yep me too

And I'm no Razor fan boy. But his record commands respect. Seems like a player's coach

It doesn't have to be Razor just clear out this clown show.

He deserves the opportunity. His longterm future in the job should not be based purely on results from this year. I just need to see systemic improvement

In terms of players, how many Irish players would you have picked in a combined 15 pre series? They play so well as a unit they get the most out of the stock they have. We should be able to do the same.

@chimoaus said in Foster must go:

In terms of players, how many Irish players would you have picked in a combined 15 pre series? They play so well as a unit they get the most out of the stock they have.

As I mentioned the Irish team is essentially Leinster so they play together all year. That has to be an advantage to Farrell and co.

@chimoaus said in Foster must go:

In terms of players, how many Irish players would you have picked in a combined 15 pre series? They play so well as a unit they get the most out of the stock they have. We should be able to do the same.

Goldie was on the news tonight. He believes we still have rugby players that are right up with the best in the world. He isnt far off. But we are not employing them effectively. We just need a coach who can succeed where Foster is failing. To organise them so they can make use of their individual abilities

@Bovidae said in Foster must go:

@chimoaus said in Foster must go:

In terms of players, how many Irish players would you have picked in a combined 15 pre series? They play so well as a unit they get the most out of the stock they have.

As I mentioned the Irish team is essentially Leinster so they play together all year. That has to be an advantage to Farrell and co.

That level of understanding and anticipation is a massive bonus. Combinations matter.

@Chris said in Foster must go:

I said hopefully will follow.

You did. And that's what you think and that's fine.

I don't want to hopefully think things will get better - I want to feel confident they will get better and there's a risk that just appointing a new coach could be a band-aid and the NZ rugby public deserve a bit more than that. We need NZR to take wider look at the problems which got us into the current mess and identify and fix the issues.

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

@Chris said in Foster must go:

I said hopefully will follow.

You did. And that's what you think and that's fine.

I don't want to hopefully think things will get better - I want to feel confident they will get better and there's a risk that just appointing a new coach could be a band-aid and the NZ rugby public deserve a bit more than that. We need NZR to take wider look at the problems which got us into the current mess and identify and fix the issues.

I don’t disagree new coach and a massive review of everything rugby in NZ would be what I want to see as well.

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

No, the problems go much deeper than just the Coaching set-up and they need addressing as well.

What are those problems?
We know Foster is definitely one, but what are the others?

@Frank said in Foster must go:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:

No, the problems go much deeper than just the Coaching set-up and they need addressing as well.

What are those problems?

One example: Our two premier locks are 31 & 33 and nearing the end of their shelf-life. We've had nearly 10 years to identify succession options and it's been a known problem since 2016. Who do we have?

Now either the player pool in NZ is better and deeper than anywhere in the world and coaching teams haven't picked the right players for the last 6 years, or we've been deluding ourselves and our pool of cattle ain't that great. Who has analysed that and put fixes in place all those years ago? Did anyone?

We know Foster is definitely one, but what are the others?

I'm not sure Foster is the main problem as we've been on a downward trend since 2016, but he ain't the man to fix the problems he can fix either.