So what did we learn from Bled2?

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.

Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.

you are shameless. but it's not easy when you see your favourite player run right past like that.

That bench spot is ALB's when he comes back.

Have to say though, i can't say i thought JB would slot in that well first time up. It may have even been his best test ever. Remarkable.

It's not an exaggeration to say JB carved up in that game

@mariner4life said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.

Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.

you are shameless. but it's not easy when you see your favourite player run right past like that.

That bench spot is ALB's when he comes back.

Have to say though, i can't say i thought JB would slot in that well first time up. It may have even been his best test ever. Remarkable.

I agree, it's his best Test that I can remember. Certainly the best performance by a 12 in over three years.

I also wonder if Dave Rennie and Wallabies took a big learning. I would think at some stage someone in ABs camp would of pointed to the Dave and the Wallabies camp we was robbed etc etc in the papers and prehaps wondered if they were going to try and prove it right. As a coach I would of made sure players were aware etc (have done similar stuff myself) , and why when I coached I would never hear an excuse for why we lost.

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.

Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.

Are you Havili's agent?

@Dan54 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I also wonder if Dave Rennie and Wallabies took a big learning. I would think at some stage someone in ABs camp would of pointed to the Dave and the Wallabies camp we was robbed etc etc in the papers and prehaps wondered if they were going to try and prove it right. As a coach I would of made sure players were aware etc (have done similar stuff myself) , and why when I coached I would never hear an excuse for why we lost.

Agreed. Wallabies are generally more successful when they go with the 'ambush' tactic. 10 days of ref whinging and weird shit like Rennie calling out Rieko a week after for something he said on the field definitely backfired.

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think if we are going to persist with both Clarke and Ioane in the starting backline them we need to find a few inventive ways to better use them because I don’t think either of them are natural ball players. I think part of our fluency issues is because we want the ball in their hands to run but more often than not our attack is breaking down because they are either unwilling passers or they’re not confident doing it. To me it’s both a mental and skill thing.

This is not a criticism but if we are wanting to improve our efficiency we are going to have see a rapid improvement quickly or a change needs to occur.

I think with Mounga, Beaudy and Jordie in the same backline you've got ample playmakers. I think one of the reasons Mounga struggles at times to assert himself against good rush defences is lack of support. Hopefully now he'll have that in spades.

We need to accept Rieko is no Conrad Smith, just like Conrad Smith was no Rieko Ioane. Different strengths, weaknesses. Rieko will get better in terms of pass choices and positioning then putting his outsides into space but I'll take his searing pace and punch at Centre for the time being.

Clarke is even younger and inexperienced so continue to bring him along. He'll have another 6-8 tests under his belt by RWC so coming along nicely. His work in the air was superb, unexpected IMO.

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting close

I know he’s playing well, but it’s pretty early days. He hasn’t even reached Mealamu level let alone the lofty heights of Fitzy.

Agree with this, unfortunately though the gap between our best hooker and next best playing is quite significant. Taylor did some good things around the field, but he is completely unreliable at the line out, reminds me of Anton Oliver and if I wanted that (which I dont), I would buy a Delorean or a hot tub

@bayimports said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting close

I know he’s playing well, but it’s pretty early days. He hasn’t even reached Mealamu level let alone the lofty heights of Fitzy.

Agree with this, unfortunately though the gap between our best hooker and next best playing is quite significant. Taylor did some good things around the field, but he is completely unreliable at the line out, reminds me of Anton Oliver and if I wanted that (which I dont), I would buy a Delorean or a hot tub

Set piece wins games, the hooker is vital to that and if there is any inconsistency issue then they need to go. In saying that even the best hookers have the odd fuck up. Does anyone have the stats of lineout success by hooker in super rugby or even test level?

@Bovidae said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Jordie needs to be used at 12 on the EOYT, even just to see how effective he is against NH opposition. He's not going to have the luxury of running at Foley every test.

Yeah he might get a chance to run at Finn Russell who makes Merhts look like Jerry Collins.

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

The 2019 Rugby World Cup Champion-beating team...

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

To be fair I don't recall DH ever having those stats.

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

Aussie are slighly better than Fiji, to be fair.

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

Exactly. So he needs to start in a couple of the tougher NHT games to see what we have

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

I can't be sure but I don't remember DH carving up Fiji the way that JB carved up an albeit poor Aussie side. In fact I don't recall any of our midfielders carving up anyone for over 2 years...

@Kirwan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

Aussie are slighly better than Fiji, to be fair.

Only slightly

@nostrildamus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

To be fair I don't recall DH ever having those stats.

I wasn't talking about stats. I was talking about people saying things along the lines of "We have found our 12."

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

I can't be sure but I don't remember DH carving up Fiji the way that JB carved up an albeit poor Aussie side

Poor Aussie side that was one decision away from beating us.

DH has had good games, just nothing like what JB has delivered. Bledisloe games are certainly at a standard where we can see if a player is up to it.

It would be mad to change him now, he's earned another shot.

So what did we learn from Bled2?

That JB is now good enough to play for the Blues?

@Kirwan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

I can't be sure but I don't remember DH carving up Fiji the way that JB carved up an albeit poor Aussie side

Poor Aussie side that was one decision away from beating us.

DH has had good games, just nothing like what JB has delivered. Bledisloe games are certainly at a standard where we can see if a player is up to it.

It would be mad to change him now, he's earned another shot.

100% Jordie should be given more chances there. Not disputing that at all. Just reminding people that a few got very excited about DH on the back of one game. Something I found amusing at the time because as a Crusader supporter I don't/didn’t rate him at 12.

JB went up the guts, power rugby style. None of the helter skelter shit that characterised our early season play. Loved it

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

JB went up the guts, power rugby style. None of the helter skelter shit that characterised our early season play. Loved it

I think he’s bulked up a bit too. For a guy that started sub 100kg and was nicknamed “Udon” he certainly played the part of the big bruising midfielder extremely well.

At times he looked like a young Jamie Roberts except with skills.

While I agree that JB was great and deserves another go at 12 and it even made his brother look better at 15 too, given that Foster likes the way he plays at 15 and he likes what DH offers at 12, do we really think Foster plays JB there again in a big game?, if no injury?

I'm not so sure, I hope I'm wrong, but I am not convinced he gets the nod

@bayimports said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

While I agree that JB was great and deserves another go at 12 and it even made his brother look better at 15 too, given that Foster likes the way he plays at 15 and he likes what DH offers at 12, do we really think Foster plays JB there again in a big game?, if no injury?

I'm not so sure, I hope I'm wrong, but I am not convinced he gets the nod

Who knows with Fozzie. But hopefully the assistants go to bat for JB to have another go

@bayimports That's the question.

I'm not convinced Fozzie will go that way, because it's quite a major re-adjustment of whatever he's been planning and building. If I were him, I'd be more inclined to give ALB some runs at 12. I suspect one of the reasons he's been a bit reluctant to give Jordie a run at 12 is to avoid opening this discussion - which is going to be another stick to beat him with!

Out of interest, if you're ranking the importance of team positions (e.g. with apparently tighthead prop as most important - and first five obviously a premier spot), how do people rate second five vs fullback?

In my mind, fullback is more important, but then I played there quite a bit!

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Kirwan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.

Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12

It’s only the Aussies….

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

I can't be sure but I don't remember DH carving up Fiji the way that JB carved up an albeit poor Aussie side

Poor Aussie side that was one decision away from beating us.

DH has had good games, just nothing like what JB has delivered. Bledisloe games are certainly at a standard where we can see if a player is up to it.

It would be mad to change him now, he's earned another shot.

100% Jordie should be given more chances there. Not disputing that at all. Just reminding people that a few got very excited about DH on the back of one game.

Sure, but more than Crusader fans are excited about Jordie's efforts last weekend!

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@nostrildamus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.

To be fair I don't recall DH ever having those stats.

I wasn't talking about stats. I was talking about people saying things along the lines of "We have found our 12."

Well now people have JB at 12 and DH at 12 to compare and to my eye and according to those stats DH never put in such a dominant performance even against weaker sides.

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

JB went up the guts, power rugby style. None of the helter skelter shit that characterised our early season play. Loved it

I think he’s bulked up a bit too. For a guy that started sub 100kg and was nicknamed “Udon” he certainly played the part of the big bruising midfielder extremely well.

At times he looked like a young Jamie Roberts except with skills.

Not going to let that one go ... Jamie Roberts was an exceptional player.

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

And it's only one Test he's played at 12. You can bet your bottom dollar opposition teams will be looking at the videos of the game to spot and exploit any weaknesses.

Be good to see how he goes against NH teams before he's crowned the new Nonu.

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

@nzzp said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@reprobate said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

So if/when ALB comes back, then what? Is Rieko a better centre than him?

Yes.

Long answer: yes - brings a point of difference. ALB was amazing, but needs to re-establish himself after hte injuries. He's the long term guy, it's becoming the Ardie at 7 argument again; whatever you think of him as an 8, that's his position, that's where he's playing. 7 cover at best.

And all of a sudden we have some good options at 12/13. Just a pity we don't have enough Test matches to decide on the best combinations.

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

If nothing else, Foster has two potential candidates for the 12 jersey who have both played well lately

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

At times he looked like a young Jamie Roberts except with skills.

If he had 3/4 of the skills of Jamie Roberts I'd be happy - outstanding player.

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

If nothing else, Foster has two potential candidates for the 12 jersey who have both played well lately

I think with his aerial game he may be more value against the better teams at 15. Jordie needs more game time at 12 though.

Did anyone really think Havili was any kind of longterm prospect at 12? He's a very talented player but never seemed comfortable at 12. In contrast Jordie slotted right in there. Which makes perfect farking sense because that was his preferred position until signing for the Canes and having brick shithouse Laumape at 12.

Assuming Foster actually has a brain and continues to select JB at 12, Havili will still be a handy bench option.

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Did anyone really think Havili was any kind of longterm prospect at 12? He's a very talented player but never seemed comfortable at 12. In contrast Jordie slotted right in there. Which makes perfect farking sense because that was his preferred position until signing for the Canes and having brick shithouse Laumape at 12.

Assuming Foster actually has a brain and continues to select JB at 12, Havili will still be a handy bench option.

I am not as down on Havili as many others as I think we've seen enough of him to suggest future there. He's had a couple of misreads which have cost, but he certainly hasn't disgraced himself.

Agree with you on bench option. He can cover a few outside back positions as well.