So what did we learn from Bled2?

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.

I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.

I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.

Do you think we will see the high ball again in the RWC? I have Ben Smith at the RWC flashbacks, but Jordie hasn't seemed to be peppered with high balls apart from maybe last year (or was it earlier)...

@nostrildamus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.

I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.

Do you think we will see the high ball again in the RWC? I have Ben Smith at the RWC flashbacks, but Jordie hasn't seemed to be peppered with high balls apart from maybe last year (or was it earlier)...

Caleb did just fine. And BB is no slug either

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@nostrildamus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.

I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.

Do you think we will see the high ball again in the RWC? I have Ben Smith at the RWC flashbacks, but Jordie hasn't seemed to be peppered with high balls apart from maybe last year (or was it earlier)...

Caleb did just fine. And BB is no slug either

Yes I think I agree with you. For some reason I also trust BB more than JB not to do something totally stupid behind the goal line and get caught...I may have no evidence for this though..

@nostrildamus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@nostrildamus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.

I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.

Do you think we will see the high ball again in the RWC? I have Ben Smith at the RWC flashbacks, but Jordie hasn't seemed to be peppered with high balls apart from maybe last year (or was it earlier)...

Caleb did just fine. And BB is no slug either

Yes I think I agree with you. For some reason I also trust BB more than JB not to do something totally stupid behind the goal line and get caught...I may have no evidence for this though..

Since when have Ferners needed evidence? But I think your assertion is not correct in this case. We do have to protect our catchers better though

This quote from Eddie Jones is showing us why we are no longer able to fatigue the Boks and the NH
teams like we used to.
We need a different game plan with bigger ball carriers. Strong kicking game and a very strong set piece to compete under the rules we have now.
As see Jones comments below we are preparing for games with 35 minutes of ball in play.
We need to speed the game up and dump a whole lot of unnecessary Laws.

“ Twelve months to the World Cup, we’re playing for a game that’s got 35 minutes of ball in play, so the ability to dress-rehearse, prepare the players for what’s coming up, whether it’s the first round, second round, third round, whatever it is, that is the opportunity going forward.”

@Chris said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

This quote from Eddie Jones is showing us why we are no longer able to fatigue the Boks and the NH
teams like we used to.
We need a different game plan with bigger ball carriers. Strong kicking game and a very strong set piece to compete under the rules we have now.
As see Jones comments below we are preparing for games with 35 minutes of ball in play.
We need to speed the game up and dump a whole lot of unnecessary Laws.

“ Twelve months to the World Cup, we’re playing for a game that’s got 35 minutes of ball in play, so the ability to dress-rehearse, prepare the players for what’s coming up, whether it’s the first round, second round, third round, whatever it is, that is the opportunity going forward.”

35 minutes of ball in play is less than 50%. No wonder rugby can be such a snore fest these days

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

This quote from Eddie Jones is showing us why we are no longer able to fatigue the Boks and the NH
teams like we used to.
We need a different game plan with bigger ball carriers. Strong kicking game and a very strong set piece to compete under the rules we have now.
As see Jones comments below we are preparing for games with 35 minutes of ball in play.
We need to speed the game up and dump a whole lot of unnecessary Laws.

“ Twelve months to the World Cup, we’re playing for a game that’s got 35 minutes of ball in play, so the ability to dress-rehearse, prepare the players for what’s coming up, whether it’s the first round, second round, third round, whatever it is, that is the opportunity going forward.”

35 minutes of ball in play is less than 50%. No wonder rugby can be such a snore fest these days

yep needs to change and quickly.

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.

He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.

Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.

Could very well be confirmation bias.

To me it's always been a no-brainer and I've always scratched my head as to why it was dismissed. He played at 12 for the NZ U20s and Canterbury so it's not like he was new to the position. Then add his size, offload, passing game and strong front-on defence and you have a damn good foundation there. As a fb he has the height, boot and aerial skills but, as you say, he doesn't have high-end pace and can be a bit of a carthorse (as opposed to BB and others who can turn on a dime).

Pity Goodhue is injured because I'd love to see that partnership at test level.

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.

He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.

Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.

Could very well be confirmation bias.

To me it's always been a no-brainer and I've always scratched my head as to why it was dismissed. He played at 12 for the NZ U20s and Canterbury so it's not like he was new to the position. Then add his size, offload, passing game and strong front-on defence and you have a damn good foundation there. As a fb he has the height, boot and aerial skills but, as you say, he doesn't have high-end pace and can be a bit of a carthorse (as opposed to BB and others who can turn on a dime).

Pity Goodhue is injured because I'd love to see that partnership at test level.

I'll settle for seeing JB and ALB if Jordie comes out on top up North

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

This quote from Eddie Jones is showing us why we are no longer able to fatigue the Boks and the NH
teams like we used to.
We need a different game plan with bigger ball carriers. Strong kicking game and a very strong set piece to compete under the rules we have now.
As see Jones comments below we are preparing for games with 35 minutes of ball in play.
We need to speed the game up and dump a whole lot of unnecessary Laws.

“ Twelve months to the World Cup, we’re playing for a game that’s got 35 minutes of ball in play, so the ability to dress-rehearse, prepare the players for what’s coming up, whether it’s the first round, second round, third round, whatever it is, that is the opportunity going forward.”

35 minutes of ball in play is less than 50%. No wonder rugby can be such a snore fest these days

These days? Mate, it has only improved over the years.

@Machpants said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

This quote from Eddie Jones is showing us why we are no longer able to fatigue the Boks and the NH
teams like we used to.
We need a different game plan with bigger ball carriers. Strong kicking game and a very strong set piece to compete under the rules we have now.
As see Jones comments below we are preparing for games with 35 minutes of ball in play.
We need to speed the game up and dump a whole lot of unnecessary Laws.

“ Twelve months to the World Cup, we’re playing for a game that’s got 35 minutes of ball in play, so the ability to dress-rehearse, prepare the players for what’s coming up, whether it’s the first round, second round, third round, whatever it is, that is the opportunity going forward.”

35 minutes of ball in play is less than 50%. No wonder rugby can be such a snore fest these days

These days? Mate, it has only improved over the years.

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Wow. That is a disgrace

All these subs don't appear to have had the right effect, which would be to maintain a high match tempo for as long as possible. It has gone down more the American sport model

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.

He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.

Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.

Could very well be confirmation bias.

To me it's always been a no-brainer and I've always scratched my head as to why it was dismissed. He played at 12 for the NZ U20s and Canterbury so it's not like he was new to the position. Then add his size, offload, passing game and strong front-on defence and you have a damn good foundation there. As a fb he has the height, boot and aerial skills but, as you say, he doesn't have high-end pace and can be a bit of a carthorse (as opposed to BB and others who can turn on a dime).

Pity Goodhue is injured because I'd love to see that partnership at test level.

The idea of J Barrett doing a bit of a half break and offloading in contact to a charging R Ioane ( need to put their first initials so we don’t get confused with their brothers ) fills me with all sorts of excitement.

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.

He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.

Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.

Could very well be confirmation bias.

To me it's always been a no-brainer and I've always scratched my head as to why it was dismissed. He played at 12 for the NZ U20s and Canterbury so it's not like he was new to the position. Then add his size, offload, passing game and strong front-on defence and you have a damn good foundation there. As a fb he has the height, boot and aerial skills but, as you say, he doesn't have high-end pace and can be a bit of a carthorse (as opposed to BB and others who can turn on a dime).

Pity Goodhue is injured because I'd love to see that partnership at test level.

The idea of J Barrett doing a bit of a half break and offloading in contact to a charging R Ioane ( need to put their first initials so we don’t get confused with their brothers ) fills me with all sorts of excitement.

TBF, the sentence could probably work with an S and an A too.

@Nepia said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.

He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.

Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.

Could very well be confirmation bias.

To me it's always been a no-brainer and I've always scratched my head as to why it was dismissed. He played at 12 for the NZ U20s and Canterbury so it's not like he was new to the position. Then add his size, offload, passing game and strong front-on defence and you have a damn good foundation there. As a fb he has the height, boot and aerial skills but, as you say, he doesn't have high-end pace and can be a bit of a carthorse (as opposed to BB and others who can turn on a dime).

Pity Goodhue is injured because I'd love to see that partnership at test level.

The idea of J Barrett doing a bit of a half break and offloading in contact to a charging R Ioane ( need to put their first initials so we don’t get confused with their brothers ) fills me with all sorts of excitement.

TBF, the sentence could probably work with an S and an A too.

Naaaaa, those two are shit, especially Akira.

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Nepia said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.

He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.

Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.

Could very well be confirmation bias.

To me it's always been a no-brainer and I've always scratched my head as to why it was dismissed. He played at 12 for the NZ U20s and Canterbury so it's not like he was new to the position. Then add his size, offload, passing game and strong front-on defence and you have a damn good foundation there. As a fb he has the height, boot and aerial skills but, as you say, he doesn't have high-end pace and can be a bit of a carthorse (as opposed to BB and others who can turn on a dime).

Pity Goodhue is injured because I'd love to see that partnership at test level.

The idea of J Barrett doing a bit of a half break and offloading in contact to a charging R Ioane ( need to put their first initials so we don’t get confused with their brothers ) fills me with all sorts of excitement.

TBF, the sentence could probably work with an S and an A too.

Naaaaa, those two are shit, especially Akira.

B and non relative J then?

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.

I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.

My point was made in response to the view that Havilli is only good for weaker opposition - I think he's better than that.

JB had a really good game on Saturday, but it's only one game (and against a team which some have argued is a weak one). Need to give him more time and see how he goes against NH sides or teams who've analysed his play at 12 first.

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

teams who've analysed his play at 12 first

knowing something is coming and doing something about it are two very different things. Big body running straight is a key rugby requirement at the top level. Then if they doubleteam/stack a defence, space is created elsewhere.

Bring it on, JB at 12, Hayman at 8, 2023 is ours

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.

I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.

My point was made in response to the view that Havilli is only good for weaker opposition - I think he's better than that.

JB had a really good game on Saturday, but it's only one game (and against a team which some have argued is a weak one). Need to give him more time and see how he goes against NH sides or teams who've analysed his play at 12 first.

I actually don't think Havili is better than that. He's poor to solid against strong opposition, but mostly poor as he gets found out and targeted physically which puts us under the pump. I think his ceiling is Super rugby, and AB squaddie covering injury.

I'm not claiming Jordie is going to play like that every game, especially against the better sides. But one thing he will bring every game is a strong physical presence and a massive boot. Two extremely important attributes at test level which Havili (or any of our other 12s really) just don't have.