So what did we learn from Bled2?

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.

He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.

Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.

Could very well be confirmation bias.

To me it's always been a no-brainer and I've always scratched my head as to why it was dismissed. He played at 12 for the NZ U20s and Canterbury so it's not like he was new to the position. Then add his size, offload, passing game and strong front-on defence and you have a damn good foundation there. As a fb he has the height, boot and aerial skills but, as you say, he doesn't have high-end pace and can be a bit of a carthorse (as opposed to BB and others who can turn on a dime).

Pity Goodhue is injured because I'd love to see that partnership at test level.

The idea of J Barrett doing a bit of a half break and offloading in contact to a charging R Ioane ( need to put their first initials so we don’t get confused with their brothers ) fills me with all sorts of excitement.

TBF, the sentence could probably work with an S and an A too.

@Nepia said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.

He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.

Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.

Could very well be confirmation bias.

To me it's always been a no-brainer and I've always scratched my head as to why it was dismissed. He played at 12 for the NZ U20s and Canterbury so it's not like he was new to the position. Then add his size, offload, passing game and strong front-on defence and you have a damn good foundation there. As a fb he has the height, boot and aerial skills but, as you say, he doesn't have high-end pace and can be a bit of a carthorse (as opposed to BB and others who can turn on a dime).

Pity Goodhue is injured because I'd love to see that partnership at test level.

The idea of J Barrett doing a bit of a half break and offloading in contact to a charging R Ioane ( need to put their first initials so we don’t get confused with their brothers ) fills me with all sorts of excitement.

TBF, the sentence could probably work with an S and an A too.

Naaaaa, those two are shit, especially Akira.

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Nepia said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.

He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.

Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.

Could very well be confirmation bias.

To me it's always been a no-brainer and I've always scratched my head as to why it was dismissed. He played at 12 for the NZ U20s and Canterbury so it's not like he was new to the position. Then add his size, offload, passing game and strong front-on defence and you have a damn good foundation there. As a fb he has the height, boot and aerial skills but, as you say, he doesn't have high-end pace and can be a bit of a carthorse (as opposed to BB and others who can turn on a dime).

Pity Goodhue is injured because I'd love to see that partnership at test level.

The idea of J Barrett doing a bit of a half break and offloading in contact to a charging R Ioane ( need to put their first initials so we don’t get confused with their brothers ) fills me with all sorts of excitement.

TBF, the sentence could probably work with an S and an A too.

Naaaaa, those two are shit, especially Akira.

B and non relative J then?

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.

I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.

My point was made in response to the view that Havilli is only good for weaker opposition - I think he's better than that.

JB had a really good game on Saturday, but it's only one game (and against a team which some have argued is a weak one). Need to give him more time and see how he goes against NH sides or teams who've analysed his play at 12 first.

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

teams who've analysed his play at 12 first

knowing something is coming and doing something about it are two very different things. Big body running straight is a key rugby requirement at the top level. Then if they doubleteam/stack a defence, space is created elsewhere.

Bring it on, JB at 12, Hayman at 8, 2023 is ours

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,

I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.

Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.

I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.

My point was made in response to the view that Havilli is only good for weaker opposition - I think he's better than that.

JB had a really good game on Saturday, but it's only one game (and against a team which some have argued is a weak one). Need to give him more time and see how he goes against NH sides or teams who've analysed his play at 12 first.

I actually don't think Havili is better than that. He's poor to solid against strong opposition, but mostly poor as he gets found out and targeted physically which puts us under the pump. I think his ceiling is Super rugby, and AB squaddie covering injury.

I'm not claiming Jordie is going to play like that every game, especially against the better sides. But one thing he will bring every game is a strong physical presence and a massive boot. Two extremely important attributes at test level which Havili (or any of our other 12s really) just don't have.

When Nonu shifted to 12 properly in 2008 (he had some prior tests there) it was in his 6th test season and he was 26.

Jordie in his 6th test season and age 25.

If JB becomes the permanent AB no.12 then he needs to play there for the Hurricanes too. But will he?

@Bovidae He played quite a few games at 12 for the Canes this year.

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

When Nonu shifted to 12 properly in 2008 (he had some prior tests there) it was in his 6th test season and he was 26.

Jordie in his 6th test season and age 25.

Shit, becoming our bestest ever 12 is basically a given then!

@No-Quarter Jordie now displaying his versatility with his performance at 12. Havilli could be used more as utility the way he is at the Crusaders. Think he has even played 10 for them.

@KiwiMurph IIRC he went back to fullback until Moorby was a regular starter. Holland needs to consistently select him at 12.

When we get to the World Cup we will want experienced cover for midfield options - so many big games all in a row - so Reiko, Goodhue, ALB, DH, Quinn Tupaea, Jordie Barrett with Jordie/DH covering fullback, Reiko as a wing option.

Can’t see room for RTS who might have a Roosters contract to head to anyway….

@Machpants said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

This quote from Eddie Jones is showing us why we are no longer able to fatigue the Boks and the NH
teams like we used to.
We need a different game plan with bigger ball carriers. Strong kicking game and a very strong set piece to compete under the rules we have now.
As see Jones comments below we are preparing for games with 35 minutes of ball in play.
We need to speed the game up and dump a whole lot of unnecessary Laws.

“ Twelve months to the World Cup, we’re playing for a game that’s got 35 minutes of ball in play, so the ability to dress-rehearse, prepare the players for what’s coming up, whether it’s the first round, second round, third round, whatever it is, that is the opportunity going forward.”

35 minutes of ball in play is less than 50%. No wonder rugby can be such a snore fest these days

These days? Mate, it has only improved over the years.

View image

Interesting there's no stats in that graphic on 91, 99 or 07, which in my memory were the worst spectacles of the tourneys to date.

I'm not reading the article.

It would un-Fernian.

@nzzp said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

teams who've analysed his play at 12 first

knowing something is coming and doing something about it are two very different things. Big body running straight is a key rugby requirement at the top level. Then if they doubleteam/stack a defence, space is created elsewhere.

Bring it on, JB at 12, Hayman at 8, 2023 is ours

Dagg to 10 and Messam to centre. Mealamu to openside

@KiwiMurph said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

When Nonu shifted to 12 properly in 2008 (he had some prior tests there) it was in his 6th test season and he was 26.

Jordie in his 6th test season and age 25.

And I can remember that Bledisloe test in Sydney in 08 where he really struggled with how the Wallabies crowded him. He took a hammering that game. Pretty sure he got replaced in the second half.

Watched the full game and noticed the following:

• The defence was hugely improved from previous games. Both Caleb Clarke and Reiko's scramble defence was excellent and the defense out wide was much improved.

• Reiko is a threat but needs to learn to hold the ball in both hands. He went charging up the right hand side of the ball and wafted it about in one left hand all over the place which telegraphed his intention to pass outside and limited his options. Either he or Jordan then lost contact with each other and the chance was butchered.

• Will Jordan got thru a power of work and went looking for opportunities over the park. Like Caleb Clarke, he was rock solid under the high ball. (Memo to Reiko: watch how Will holds the ball in two hands to keep the opposition guessing), Clarke is a threat and great under the high ball but needs to either look for support or put the hammer down. Maybe just me, but does he seem to slow down and look for support runners?

• Mo'unga had a good solid game and looks settled at 10. No pyrotechnics and was tidy but MoM? Smith was machine-like with his passing and he plays a very simple game which is fast, effective and almost error free. Christie is a very solid cover in the same vein. Remember when we had a collective groan when Smith went off and wondered if Perenara would screw up? Me neither.

• Akira was v. good and I thought it arguably his best game in Black. He put in the hard yards as well as some runs and his defence was excellent. Paps tackling was good but I think his carrying isn't as good as Cane's. Foster & co have developed some good options and some developing players like Paps, but I still don't see 6/7/8 as being nailed down - esp. 6

• Ethan de Groot is a beast who doesn't back down and gets under the oppositions's skin. Bloke has a huge future in an AB scrum which now makes you think they are going to win a penalty every time the opposition puts in.

• The locking options with BBBR, Sam and SB look really secure but we need to give the 4th lock game time.

• We struggled to keep concentration up in the 3rd quarter and there were too many penalties given away when we were on attack. It was the opposite when we were under the pump on our line where the discipline seemed to hold even if we gave away penalties (well, until Oz lost the ball). There's still a fragility there.

• Too many opportunities were butchered either by players taking the wrong decision, minimal backing up from a break-out or running away from support players. I guess this will improve when players spend more time together.

• The biggest improvement seems to be in mind-set and on-field leadership. Whisper it not, but the headless chicken, wild-eyed staring seems to have abated and there's a lot more calm out there on the field. As a unit, they seem very together.

So, for me, a team going in the right direction but still fragile in many areas. Still a heck of a lot to do and not much time to do it in before RWC 2023 but a huge difference from the rabble of Ireland III - or the RWC2019 semi for that matter.

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@nzzp said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

teams who've analysed his play at 12 first

knowing something is coming and doing something about it are two very different things. Big body running straight is a key rugby requirement at the top level. Then if they doubleteam/stack a defence, space is created elsewhere.

Bring it on, JB at 12, Hayman at 8, 2023 is ours

Dagg to 10 and Messam to centre. Mealamu to openside

*Messum

@nzzp said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@nzzp said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

teams who've analysed his play at 12 first

knowing something is coming and doing something about it are two very different things. Big body running straight is a key rugby requirement at the top level. Then if they doubleteam/stack a defence, space is created elsewhere.

Bring it on, JB at 12, Hayman at 8, 2023 is ours

Dagg to 10 and Messam to centre. Mealamu to openside

*Messum

5- Jordie
6- Lomu
7- Mealamu
8- Hayman
9- Cruden
10- Dagg

12- Ardie
13- Messam

@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B Jeez I'd put money down on 10% . We now have a front row remember; and a 12

I reckon we're going to have to win three tough play-off games to win RWC. First one almost certainly Ireland or SA. The Irish have won three of their last four against us so they might figure we've only got a 25 percent chance of beating them - Jaaps I think we're 2-2 against.

But, I'm giving us a 50-50 rule-of-thumb chance for each of the play-off games.

Which I think is 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 - 12.5% chance of winning all three.

(Actually, that's one in eight - starters chance).