NPC 2023

@Canes4life I think every province should keep their mitts off Manawatū players. They've been struggling so much this year, because they lost several of their best players (due to not being able to pay them). If they can afford to sign him, he should play for them (if he wants to) and other province should not chase the good players they still have.

By the way, Vernon Bason will be replacing Siua Maile, who's left for Benetton.

@Stargazer said in NPC 2023:

@Canes4life I think every province should keep their mitts off Manawatū players. They've been struggling so much this year, because they lost several of their best players (due to not being able to pay them). If they can afford to sign him, he should play for them (if he wants to) and other province should not chase the good players they still have.

By the way, Vernon Bason will be replacing Siua Maile, who's left for Benetton.

I would agree if their talent was spread across multiple positions, however Manawatu have three Hurricanes development hookers under the age of 23 in their system when you include Ben Strang. You can't keep them all I'm afraid.

If Aumua goes into the All Blacks and for some reason Dane Coles isn't available then Wellington will be looking to fill a need. As a young hooker aswell, the prospect of learning from someone like Coles would be hard to turn down.

northlandrugby Dan Hawkins, Taniwha # 866, has re-signed with Northland for 2023

Dan has played 71 games for the Taniwha and also plays for Hora Hora

#UpTheTanis

northlandrugby Esile Fono, Taniwha # 978, has re-signed with Northland for 2023/24

Esile has played 4 games for the Taniwha and also plays for Horahora Rugby Club

#UpTheTanis

Manawatū is trying to keep their young players.

The Manawatū Rugby Union are stoked to announce the signing of talented centre – Epeli Waqa Nalaga (Waqa) for the 2023 & 2024 Bunnings NPC seasons! Waqa is another academy signing, he impressed this year - representing Hurricanes U20s and being selected for the NZ U19s to tour South Africa!

@Canes4life said in NPC 2023:

The Lions should try and get Raymond Tuputupu from Manawatu

or you could, you know, use Wellington players, like the NPC is supposed to be for

Provinces buying in players cheapens the entire product.

@mariner4life said in NPC 2023:

@Canes4life said in NPC 2023:

The Lions should try and get Raymond Tuputupu from Manawatu

or you could, you know, use Wellington players, like the NPC is supposed to be for

Provinces buying in players cheapens the entire product.

It’s a professional game, players are free to ply their trade wherever they want to. There are Wellington club players scattered all over the country, including hookers. If Wellington need to strengthen an area of weakness then I’m all for them looking elsewhere. We’ve certainly supplied a hell of a lot more players to other provinces than what we’ve taken over the years so boo hoo if we grab a player in a neighbouring province.

Doesn’t matter anyway, Tuputupu has signed for Manawatu.

@Canes4life NPC isn’t Pro. It is semi-pro with the basic idea of compensating players rather than giving them a career wage.
Provinces also have controlled spending so should be looking for locals and supporting their clubs rather than trying to buy results.
If you need to fill a gap then fine but I agree that things should be within house as much as possible.
CM have consciously gone down that route and the local support has increased. It engages more local rugby folk.

@Crucial said in NPC 2023:

@Canes4life NPC isn’t Pro. It is semi-pro with the basic idea of compensating players rather than giving them a career wage.
Provinces also have controlled spending so should be looking for locals and supporting their clubs rather than trying to buy results.
If you need to fill a gap then fine but I agree that things should be within house as much as possible.
CM have consciously gone down that route and the local support has increased. It engages more local rugby folk.

In the case I’m referring to its not buying results, Tuputupu is about 20, he’s still in his development phase and still has plenty to prove. The reason that I mentioned Wellington should target him is because Manawatu seem to have an abundance of young hookers coming through and it might be worthwhile for one of them to move if they want to get game time. The fact Wellington need a hooker means that it could have benefited both parties.

There’s a difference in filling a need VS going out and poaching players to stack up your squad. That I don’t agree with.

It also really depends on how much the ‘house’ is raided so to speak because fringe players also end up at other provinces which makes it difficult to draw on NPC level players when injuries strike, hence the need to look elsewhere.

@Crucial said in NPC 2023:

@Canes4life NPC isn’t Pro. It is semi-pro with the basic idea of compensating players rather than giving them a career wage.
Provinces also have controlled spending so should be looking for locals and supporting their clubs rather than trying to buy results.
If you need to fill a gap then fine but I agree that things should be within house as much as possible.
CM have consciously gone down that route and the local support has increased. It engages more local rugby folk.

Especially big provinces with a big player pool like Wellington's. Small provinces like Manawatū don't have that luxury.

@Stargazer said in NPC 2023:

@Crucial said in NPC 2023:

@Canes4life NPC isn’t Pro. It is semi-pro with the basic idea of compensating players rather than giving them a career wage.
Provinces also have controlled spending so should be looking for locals and supporting their clubs rather than trying to buy results.
If you need to fill a gap then fine but I agree that things should be within house as much as possible.
CM have consciously gone down that route and the local support has increased. It engages more local rugby folk.

Especially big provinces with a big player pool like Wellington's. Small provinces like Manawatū don't have that luxury.

Quantity doesn’t always mean quality in every position though. The NPC is still a results based business at the end of the day so if a province needs to fill a gap they consider a weakness, then so be it.

The player pool in terms of NPC quality has also shrunk compared to what it used to be with competing global competitions also vying for NZ talent, so I would rather a player stay in NZ than go overseas if it meant him moving provinces for more opportunity.

@Stargazer Just look at Hawkes Bay rugby over recent years, they’ve propped up their squads with quite a number of fringe Wellington players in recent years, so you know full well that Wellington don’t also have access to the whole pool because smaller provinces like HB pick them up. It’s just the way it is.

@Canes4life said in NPC 2023:

@Stargazer said in NPC 2023:

@Crucial said in NPC 2023:

@Canes4life NPC isn’t Pro. It is semi-pro with the basic idea of compensating players rather than giving them a career wage.
Provinces also have controlled spending so should be looking for locals and supporting their clubs rather than trying to buy results.
If you need to fill a gap then fine but I agree that things should be within house as much as possible.
CM have consciously gone down that route and the local support has increased. It engages more local rugby folk.

Especially big provinces with a big player pool like Wellington's. Small provinces like Manawatū don't have that luxury.

Quantity doesn’t always mean quality in every position though. The NPC is still a results based business at the end of the day so if a province needs to fill a gap they consider a weakness, then so be it.

The player pool in terms of NPC quality has also shrunk compared to what it used to be with competing global competitions also vying for NZ talent, so I would rather a player stay in NZ than go overseas if it meant him moving provinces for more opportunity.

@Stargazer Just look at Hawkes Bay rugby over recent years, they propped up their squads with quite a number of fringe Wellington players in recent years, so you know full well that Wellington don’t also have access to the whole pool because smaller provinces like HB pick them up. It’s just the way it is.

Very few Wellington players in the 2022 Magpies squad. Those would be Joe 'Apikotoa, who arrived in Hawke's Bay in 2018 after he hardly got game time for the Lions in previous years and Kienan Higgins, who couldn't crack the Lions at all.
Tiatia came to us via BOP and Nick Grigg via Japan, and before that Scotland, so don't count.

Just in case you don't know, Joel Hintz and Sam Smith both are from Wairarapa, not Wellington.
What 'Apikotoa, Higgins, Hintz and Smith all have in common is that they had to play club rugby in Hawke's Bay first. They had to earn their contracts, competing for a spot with local players.

Wellington has a very big player pool compared to small provinces like Manawatū (and Hawke's Bay) and what you were suggesting is going after top Manawatū talent (Tuputupu) that Manawatū needs itself. Smaller provinces also lose players to Europe and Japan. Hooker Siua Maile is a good example. Big provinces should join the queue at the back, not at the front, if it comes to contracting players from smaller provinces.

Edited to add that you're welcome to get all of Higgins, Smith, Tiatia and Grigg if Wellington wants them.

@Stargazer said in NPC 2023:

@Canes4life said in NPC 2023:

@Stargazer said in NPC 2023:

@Crucial said in NPC 2023:

@Canes4life NPC isn’t Pro. It is semi-pro with the basic idea of compensating players rather than giving them a career wage.
Provinces also have controlled spending so should be looking for locals and supporting their clubs rather than trying to buy results.
If you need to fill a gap then fine but I agree that things should be within house as much as possible.
CM have consciously gone down that route and the local support has increased. It engages more local rugby folk.

Especially big provinces with a big player pool like Wellington's. Small provinces like Manawatū don't have that luxury.

Quantity doesn’t always mean quality in every position though. The NPC is still a results based business at the end of the day so if a province needs to fill a gap they consider a weakness, then so be it.

The player pool in terms of NPC quality has also shrunk compared to what it used to be with competing global competitions also vying for NZ talent, so I would rather a player stay in NZ than go overseas if it meant him moving provinces for more opportunity.

@Stargazer Just look at Hawkes Bay rugby over recent years, they propped up their squads with quite a number of fringe Wellington players in recent years, so you know full well that Wellington don’t also have access to the whole pool because smaller provinces like HB pick them up. It’s just the way it is.

Very few Wellington players in the 2022 Magpies squad. Those would be Joe 'Apikotoa, who arrived in Hawke's Bay in 2018 after he hardly got game time for the Lions in previous years and Kienan Higgins, who couldn't crack the Lions at all.
Tiatia came to us via BOP and Nick Grigg via Japan, and before that Scotland, so don't count.

Just in case you don't know, Joel Hintz and Sam Smith both are from Wairarapa, not Wellington.
What 'Apikotoa, Higgins, Hintz and Smith all have in common is that they had to play club rugby in Hawke's Bay first. They had to earn their contracts, competing for a spot with local players.

Wellington has a very big player pool compared to small provinces like Manawatū (and Hawke's Bay) and what you were suggesting is going after top Manawatū talent (Tuputupu) that Manawatū needs itself. Smaller provinces also lose players to Europe and Japan. Hooker Siua Maile is a good example. Big provinces should join the queue at the back, not at the front, if it comes to contracting players from smaller provinces.

Edited to add that you're welcome to get all of Higgins, Smith, Tiatia and Grigg if Wellington wants them.

Lol I’m not talking about just last year, but thanks for highlighting all the Wellington college based players that have been through Hawkes Bay recently. All those players have had one thing in common, they’ve all been fringe Lions players and have ended up at other provinces throughout their careers. It just proves my point that the second layer of talent at bigger provinces isn’t always there to pick from when injuries strike, therefore this whole point being made about picking within your province is kind of pointless when the talent isn’t always available / taken from smaller provinces and as a result the talent is diluted.

Do you think Waikato gave two shites about Southland when they grabbed Damian McKenzie for example? Nope. At the end of the day it’s business, small unions are happy to take players from bigger unions, so I have no qualms about bigger unions taking players from smaller unions if and when the need is there. Wellington have a need for a hooker next year if O’Reilly doesn’t come back, and Aumua/Coles (or both) are in the ABs next year. If they can’t find a hooker good enough in Wellington club rugby to fill a gap and there is a need to look elsewhere, then it’s fair game in my opinion. However, if Wellington have depth in numbers, then yes, they should be picking within their province.

@Canes4life "All" those players? Again, only two players from Wellington in recent years that played in Wellington before they arrived in HB. Only one of them ('Apikotoa) played for Wellington (2nd/3rd stringer). Higgins was a 4th/5th stringer at best. And both of them left Wellington in search for better opportunities and had to play themselves into the Hawke's Bay squad via club rugby.
The others aren't from Wellington, or arrived in HB from somewhere else (they're comparable to Dom Bird, who arrived in Wellington from overseas, and before that from Canterbury, and not straight from Hawke's Bay).

McKenzie wasn't grabbed out of Southland as he didn't attend secondary school there (Christ's College, Christchurch). He may still play for Southland one day - just like his brother.

Comparing Wellington chasing top talent from smaller provinces with smaller provinces signing leftovers from Wellington is comparing apples and oranges. I can imagine Wellington being unhappy about losing a player like Naitoa Ah Kuoi to BOP (I don't know the background of that move), but Manawatū (or Hawke's Bay) - who are in the same SR franchise area - don't have a single top player from Wellington in their squad.

I have no qualms about bigger unions taking players from smaller unions if and when the need is there. Wellington have a need for a hooker next year if O’Reilly doesn’t come back, and Aumua/Coles (or both) are in the ABs next year. If they can’t find a hooker good enough in Wellington club rugby to fill a gap and there is a need to look elsewhere, then it’s fair game in my opinion.

Arrogance, plain and simple. It would be different if players from small provinces took the initiative themselves and went looking for better opportunities somewhere else, but a big province actively going after them - as you would like them to do - while they're still playing in their home province (where they are needed as starters or reserves) is just unacceptable.

If Wellington has so few good players that are good enough as "depth" for the Lions, despite their much bigger player pool, they maybe should make a better effort of developing their young players. Smaller provinces have to do that, too, with the much smaller number of players they have (and often less money).

Anyway, this was about signing Tuputupu and it is a moot point now, with him being signed by Manawatū.

PS: It's good to know you won't be complaining about other provinces poaching Wellington top talent in the future, as it's all fair game aye?

@Stargazer said in NPC 2023:

I can imagine Wellington being unhappy about losing a player like Naitoa Ah Kuoi to BOP (I don't know the background of that move)

Especially when his father is a Vice President (and will be the President in the not too distant future) of the WRFU!

PS: It's good to know you won't be complaining about other provinces poaching Wellington top talent in the future, as it's all fair game aye?

I think they are miffed after losing the poached hooker (Tyrone Thompson) back to where they poached him from!

The NPC schedule will be announced tomorrow according to this:

Home matches for each of the 14 teams are as follows*:

2022 winners and Ranfurly Shield holders Wellington to host Hawke’s Bay, Counties Manukau, Southland, Ta$man and North Harbour

Auckland to host Manawatu, Canterbury, Northland, Hawke’s Bay and Waikato

Bay of Plenty to host Otago, Wellington, Waikato, Auckland and Ta$man

Canterbury to host Ta$man, Taranaki, Manawatu, Wellington and Southland

Counties Manukau to host Hawke’s Bay, Bay of Plenty, Southland, Manawatu and Canterbury

Hawke’s Bay to host Bay of Plenty, Otago, Waikato, North Harbour and Manawatu

Manawatu to host Northland, North Harbour, Taranaki, Southland and Wellington

North Harbour to host Auckland, Canterbury, Northland, Waikato and Otago

Northland to host Canterbury, Taranaki, Ta$man, Bay of Plenty and Hawke’s Bay

Otago to host Counties Manukau, Southland, Wellington, Taranaki and Northland

Southland to host Hawke’s Bay, Waikato, Bay of Plenty, Northland and Auckland

Taranaki to host Auckland, North Harbour, Ta$man, Counties Manukau and Bay of Plenty

Ta$man to host Manawatu, North Harbour, Auckland, Otago and Counties Manukau

Waikato to host Otago, Wellington, Counties Manukau, Canterbury and Taranaki

*Home matches are listed in a random order, dates each match will be played will be confirmed in 2023.

You would think NZR would design the draw so a team doesn't miss playing another team for more than one season. This is not the situation.

@Bovidae It's based on rules laid down in the NZR Competitions Regulations Handbook. If they would deviate from that, it would be random and open to criticism of bias. It's not ideal, but at least no one can claim that one team is favoured by NZR over another.

The rules say that you play all the provinces in your own conference and 4 cross-over games.

Who is in your conference, is based on the seeding at the end of the previous season. How that seeding works is also laid down in the Handbook. For the provinces playing finals it is based on finals ranking; for all other teams it's based on conference ranking.

If I'm correct, this is the seeding at the end of the 2022 season:

1 Wellington
2 Canterbury
3 Bay of Plenty
4 Auckland
5 North Harbour
6 Waikato
7 Hawke's Bay
8 Northland
9 Otago
10 Ta$man
11 Counties Manukau
12 Taranaki
13 Southland
14 Manawatū

So, that means the 6 opponents of the own conference are known (odds and evens conferences).

The cross-over games are also based on rules in the Handbook, and have been the same for years, and ultimately come down to provinces picking an opponent for one home game and for one away game, in a pre-set order (which may mean they have no choice at all, if they are the last to pick).

@Stargazer I was looking at the Waikato schedule and we don't play Ta$man next year, and didn't this year. Waikato would be seeded 5th, ahead of NH, so likely the explanation.