@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Bones Fair point.
And how is he in the scrum?
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I'd argue that numbers matter most at scrum time. 7 rather speaks for itself. 6 must be rock solid on blindside defence (an area where Vaa'i was exposed). 8 needs to be able to operate behind retreating scrum and needs strong impetus.
Regarding lineout, to me one loosie needs to be elite, but doesnt't matter if it's 6 or 8.
For me, at top level Jacobson, RD and Lakai are 7s.
Leading contenders for 6 are probably Flanders, Finau and Parker (for heft).
That leaves 8 a bit up in air. With Finau at 6, lineout covered, which opens things up for a Sititi. But if the 6 isn't a lineout banker, then 8 needs to be. Sotutu would have been very handy to have in squad.
Everything comes back to the scrum with you, eh?
Ha!
I’d agree in principle but teams don’t seem to take those different loose forward roles into much account these days. Did you see Fainga’anuku pack down at 8 against the Reds on the weekend? Poor guy didn’t have a clue what he was doing.
I also saw Lee packing down at blindside against Moana while wearing 7, with Blackadder on the openside despite wearing 6. The Blues loose forwards have also regularly switched where they bind at the scrum throughout the game, depending on the in-game situation. So a lot of it is very pragmatic, with different loose forwards fulfilling different roles, whether it’s at the scrum or around the field.
I should have said that it's defensive scrums where the specialist roles are most prevalent. On attacking scrums I can easily imagine situations where the play being called might suit the blindside to pack at openside.
As for the lineout, I do think its preferable to have 4 genuine options in the back five at Test level. Having both Finau and Flanders in the loose forward trio would be useful in this regard but both of them are at their best out wide. If you add Savea to this, then you’re asking a whole lot (too much, I think) of your tight five in terms of the carry and clean through the middle.
You raise an issue with Savea himself. He's not a cleaner, so if he plays 7 you need solid ruck hitting loosies, such as Cane and Frizell. Which is why I'd actually pick RD on bench.
So, with Rennie, I think it’s going to be either Finau or Flanders at blindside and Savea most likely at openside.
Number 8 is probably, like you say, the most difficult position to fill. Another lineout option, who is a high-volume carrier while preferably having a high work rate at the breakdown as well. I don’t really see anyone who fits that profile across the SRP teams right now.It may be part of Chiefs thinking that, with Finau at 6, a cleaning loosie like Parker provides balance at 8.
Where is Kieran Read when you need him? I was trying to find some stats on Read’s carrying numbers and came across this from 2020, when they selected the NZ SR team of the decade. “Kieran Read gets the nod at No.8 having gained the most metres (3,131) from the most carries (892) of any No.8 and was also one of only two such players to make 800+ tackles.” (link: https://super.rugby/superrugby/news/nz-super-rugby-team-of-the-decade/) This while also being one of the best lineout forwards of his generation. Pretty useful player and it's really no wonder the ABs didn't have to worry about loose forward balance for so long when he was around.
Absolutely. I think Luatua could have had the skills to follow Read, but we screwed up the succession, which led to RD being shoehorned into 8.
The most intriguing option right now, I think, is if Sititi can regain some of his 2024 form. During that SRP season, the Chiefs number 8 averaged 15.8 carries, 15.8 tackles (87% success), 3.3 defenders beaten, 1.3 lineouts won, and 51.4 post-contact metres per 80 minutes. According to Opta’s 2024 Stats Hub, he had a dominant carry percentage of 54.7%, reaching the gainline at 64.9% of the time and evading tacklers for 19.9% of his carries. On attack, he cleaned around 12 rucks per game at 87% effectiveness, while attending around 5 defensive rucks per game as well. Statistically, I still think it’s one of the better No. 8 seasons that we’ve seen recently.
Unfortunately, he’s fallen off since then, due to injury issues and an inability to quickly regain form. 2024 might’ve been a blip for Sititi, both at SR and at Test level, as he wasn’t able to reach the same standard in 2025. Still, a fit and firing Sititi would be a great option for the ABs to have in 2026.
Agree that a fit Sititi should be in squad. But, from the perspective of balance, to me RD and Sititi are too similar to start together. However, Paps/Jacobson/Lakai at 7, Finau at 6 and Wally 8 would have attractions.
From memory Finau was the most accurate cleaner on attacking rucks in SRP last year
Not noticed, but at least in some games has been posted out wide, where it's less important. Parker is excellent cleaner in centre field.
@Bones said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Bones Fair point.
And how is he in the scrum?
Extremely hard to tell what, if anything, a no. 8 is adding!
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Bones said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Bones Fair point.
And how is he in the scrum?
Extremely hard to tell what, if anything, a no. 8 is adding!
Try harder.
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
You appear to be very well informed.
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
You appear to be very well informed.
Is that you on the left Mauss? The lady of the house!?
@DaGrubster said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Is that you on the left Mauss? The lady of the house!?
I'm afraid Hyacinth has kicked the bucket.
I question the Highlanders scouting abilities. Then again that might have been around the time of his near drinking-related conviction...
@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I question the Highlanders scouting abilities. Then again that might have been around the time of his near drinking-related conviction...
There was probably a bit of a rugby is easy attitude from STT which needed to be knocked out of him.
From what I have been told and read he was a bit of a lazy trainer, had some off-field issues and had an attitude of expectation.
Being left uncontracted at Otago and having to go outside of his comfort zone in Southland was probably the best thing for him.
He was also a player who liked to pest around outwide and run at little blokes. Now he is more prepared to role up his sleeves.
All that mixed in with being a short stout loosie meant he wasn't up in neon lights.
In saying all that, I hope he is our starting 8 next year.
@SouthernMann said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
All that mixed in with being a short stout loosie meant he wasn't up in neon lights.
There does seem to be a rush of 1.85 or so metre loosies available for higher honours at the moment...
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Bones said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Bones Fair point.
And how is he in the scrum?
Extremely hard to tell what, if anything, a no. 8 is adding!
Mike Cron felt the 8 was a massive part of the scrum and praised So'oialo in the boot as a key part of the scrum's success.
@taniwharugby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Mike Cron felt the 8 was a massive part of the scrum and praised on So'oialo in the boot as a key part of the scrums success.
So maybe we should ask Mike Cron? Not sure if that conflicts with his Wallaby work (if that is ongoing)...
@taniwharugby not sure about massive, but grant you important. Just extremely difficult to observe against front row and locking contribution.
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
The players who do seem to be rather typical 8s have their own issues, whether it’s a lack of size (Lio-Willie) or a lack of experience (Wrampling-Alec).
Wrampling-Alec is one who excites me. Very good athlete and plays with a dog mentality that seems to be missing in a lot of NZ players these days. Nice to see his carry and tackle rate quite high for a newcomer. He has the physical tools but I'd like to see if he can play in a tighter role too.
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman speaking of locks, how many games has Darry been at tighthead for? Assume he's back to loosehead now Pat is fit?
Darry was TH in all the games I watched, but LH against Clan with Patty back. Blues scrum struggled a bit. Watched in a rush, and I took to be because Tupaea had problems with Angus T. Renata EDG good tussle.
@DaGrubster said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Is that you on the left Mauss?
Unfortunately, my coiffure isn't quite as immaculate. I'd say it's a bit more comparable to Richard's on the right.
Dress sense and general attitude very similar though!
@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@DaGrubster said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Is that you on the left Mauss? The lady of the house!?
I'm afraid Hyacinth has kicked the bucket.
@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@DaGrubster said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Is that you on the left Mauss? The lady of the house!?
I'm afraid Hyacinth has kicked the bucket.
Blessed relief for long suffering Richard!
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@DaGrubster said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Is that you on the left Mauss?
Unfortunately, my coiffure isn't quite as immaculate. I'd say it's a bit more comparable to Richard's on the right.
Dress sense and general attitude very similar though!
Killer combination there Mauss!
I will now read your posts in the voice of Hyacinth from now on!
@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Is Tupou-Ta'eiloa not NZ qualified?
Semisi? Moana list him as born in Mangere but nationality as Tongan!
You can just see some nh journalist doing a
Mealamu was born in Tokoroa with that one . 
@kiwiinmelb said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Is Tupou-Ta'eiloa not NZ qualified?
Semisi? Moana list him as born in Mangere but nationality as Tongan!
You can just see some nh journalist doing a
Mealamu was born in Tokoroa with that one .
Tonga as Mangere North?
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Darry was TH in all the games I watched, but LH against Clan with Patty back. Blues scrum struggled a bit. Watched in a rush, and I took to be because Tupea had problems with Angus T. Renata EDG good tussle.
Huh? Is Angus T a good scrummaging prop now?
@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Darry was TH in all the games I watched, but LH against Clan with Patty back. Blues scrum struggled a bit. Watched in a rush, and I took to be because Tupea had problems with Angus T. Renata EDG good tussle.
Huh? Is Angus T a good scrummaging prop now?
Tupaea's scrummaging is not his strength.
26 days later
@Fale009 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
The players who do seem to be rather typical 8s have their own issues, whether it’s a lack of size (Lio-Willie) or a lack of experience (Wrampling-Alec).
Wrampling-Alec is one who excites me. Very good athlete and plays with a dog mentality that seems to be missing in a lot of NZ players these days. Nice to see his carry and tackle rate quite high for a newcomer. He has the physical tools but I'd like to see if he can play in a tighter role too.
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
The back up is wide open. Two leaving players (Sotutu and Flanders) would have been naturals, but assuming they are gone.
Personally I'd like to see a big carrying 8. Wrampling-Alec certainly caught the eye at the weekend with his carry through traffic for a try. Of the rest, Tupou-Ta'eiloa was the outstanding power 8 early doors, but seems to have trailed off in the sad Moana situation.
Others impress with workrate, but hard to think of any who have the heft to stand out at test, as opposed to Super, level.
Am I missing someone?
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Fale009 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
The players who do seem to be rather typical 8s have their own issues, whether it’s a lack of size (Lio-Willie) or a lack of experience (Wrampling-Alec).
Wrampling-Alec is one who excites me. Very good athlete and plays with a dog mentality that seems to be missing in a lot of NZ players these days. Nice to see his carry and tackle rate quite high for a newcomer. He has the physical tools but I'd like to see if he can play in a tighter role too.
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
The back up is wide open. Two leaving players (Sotutu and Flanders) would have been naturals, but assuming they are gone.
Personally I'd like to see a big carrying 8. Wrampling-Alec certainly caught the eye at the weekend with his carry through traffic for a try. Of the rest, Tupou-Ta'eiloa was the outstanding power 8 early doors, but seems to have trailed off in the sad Moana situation.
Others impress with workrate, but hard to think of any who have the heft to stand out at test, as opposed to Super, level.
Am I missing someone?
You're missing Casey. It's a very small sample size, but that performance on the weekend was huge and against an AB loose trio. A lot of raw edges, but the man can carry, tackle and smash rucks.
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
Listening to Goldie on the Breakdown, he wants Lakai at 8 and Sititi at 6.
Can't say I am of the same opinion.
@antipodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
Listening to Goldie on the Breakdown, he wants Lakai at 8 and Sititi at 6.
Can't say I am of the same opinion.
What, and Ardie at 7?
Tiniest loose forward trio of all time.
@antipodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
Listening to Goldie on the Breakdown, he wants Lakai at 8 and Sititi at 6.
Can't say I am of the same opinion.
Was it on there or am I thinking of somewhere else where he prefaced his comments with 'I don't know anything about lineouts' or similar?
Well at least there's one thing we can agree on Jeff.
@antipodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
Listening to Goldie on the Breakdown, he wants Lakai at 8 and Sititi at 6.
Can't say I am of the same opinion.
I want a big munter at 6 against the Boks. Lakai is fine as 7. And Sititi at 8.
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Fale009 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
The players who do seem to be rather typical 8s have their own issues, whether it’s a lack of size (Lio-Willie) or a lack of experience (Wrampling-Alec).
Wrampling-Alec is one who excites me. Very good athlete and plays with a dog mentality that seems to be missing in a lot of NZ players these days. Nice to see his carry and tackle rate quite high for a newcomer. He has the physical tools but I'd like to see if he can play in a tighter role too.
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
The back up is wide open. Two leaving players (Sotutu and Flanders) would have been naturals, but assuming they are gone.
Personally I'd like to see a big carrying 8. Wrampling-Alec certainly caught the eye at the weekend with his carry through traffic for a try. Of the rest, Tupou-Ta'eiloa was the outstanding power 8 early doors, but seems to have trailed off in the sad Moana situation.
Others impress with workrate, but hard to think of any who have the heft to stand out at test, as opposed to Super, level.
Am I missing someone?
You're missing Casey. It's a very small sample size, but that performance on the weekend was huge and against an AB loose trio. A lot of raw edges, but the man can carry, tackle and smash rucks.
I did think of him. Pity he won't get to showcase his wares come final rounds.
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
and if you think someone like Casey or Barnes is a potential for a WC 23, do you take them on tour anyway to fast track development?
100% you do. A rare proper tour.
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I want a big munter at 6 against the Boks
Unfortunately, I just don't think we have one.
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@antipodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
Listening to Goldie on the Breakdown, he wants Lakai at 8 and Sititi at 6.
Can't say I am of the same opinion.
I want a big munter at 6 against the Boks. Lakai is fine as 7. And Sititi at 8.
I'm still not convinced by Lakai. He's good, he's consistent. But for me he isn't head and shoulders better than half a dozen other guys, and I don't really see how his game translates better against bigger bodies at test level. I'd pick e.g. all of Valetini, Wilson, McReight and Cale ahead of him. He's a good carrier but he's not that big, and he's not got really fast feet - so I just see him playing like he did vs England - a huge effort with 20 carries, but not all that much actually achieved. He's also not really a volume tackler nor super-accurate. He is a bit of a pain at the ruck which I like.
Then when you combine that with Sititi's strongest suit being his carrying, I don't see it as a good combination really. And even if that's the balance you want, then I think it would be a fair argument to say Savea is better than Lakai at everything he does.
Also the big munter still doesn't exist, which is our bigger problem.
@Canes4life snap
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Canes4life snap
I see Lakai as more of your bench loosie, covers 6,7 and 8 and has the mobile game when the game opens up. Savea will start at 7, Sititi will start at 8, we just need to find the guy at 6. I quite like Malachi-Wrampling or Barnes but they are fairly young.
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@antipodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
Listening to Goldie on the Breakdown, he wants Lakai at 8 and Sititi at 6.
Can't say I am of the same opinion.
I want a big munter at 6 against the Boks. Lakai is fine as 7. And Sititi at 8.
I'm still not convinced by Lakai. He's good, he's consistent. But for me he isn't head and shoulders better than half a dozen other guys, and I don't really see how his game translates better against bigger bodies at test level. I'd pick e.g. all of Valetini, Wilson, McReight and Cale ahead of him. He's a good carrier but he's not that big, and he's not got really fast feet - so I just see him playing like he did vs England - a huge effort with 20 carries, but not all that much actually achieved. He's also not really a volume tackler nor super-accurate. He is a bit of a pain at the ruck which I like.
Then when you combine that with Sititi's strongest suit being his carrying, I don't see it as a good combination really. And even if that's the balance you want, then I think it would be a fair argument to say Savea is better than Lakai at everything he does.Also the big munter still doesn't exist, which is our bigger problem.
gee and I thought I was only one who couldnt see what the attraction with him was. not a 8 only a 7 but doesn't do the dirty work like we need.was well and truly out played by segner last week
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@antipodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@pakman said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Looking at the opening AB squad, on form Wally S would have to be first pick at 8.
Listening to Goldie on the Breakdown, he wants Lakai at 8 and Sititi at 6.
Can't say I am of the same opinion.
I want a big munter at 6 against the Boks. Lakai is fine as 7. And Sititi at 8.
I'm still not convinced by Lakai. He's good, he's consistent. But for me he isn't head and shoulders better than half a dozen other guys, and I don't really see how his game translates better against bigger bodies at test level. I'd pick e.g. all of Valetini, Wilson, McReight and Cale ahead of him. He's a good carrier but he's not that big, and he's not got really fast feet - so I just see him playing like he did vs England - a huge effort with 20 carries, but not all that much actually achieved. He's also not really a volume tackler nor super-accurate. He is a bit of a pain at the ruck which I like.
Then when you combine that with Sititi's strongest suit being his carrying, I don't see it as a good combination really. And even if that's the balance you want, then I think it would be a fair argument to say Savea is better than Lakai at everything he does.Also the big munter still doesn't exist, which is our bigger problem.
Lakai is definitely an option at 7. Sititi is very inconsistent.
In terms of 6, Finau should have been persisted with.
The best young form options coming through this are Barnes, Wrampling, and Saifoloi.
Howden has makes quite a few errors. We haven't seen enough of Haig or Stodart.
These guys all have better size than Lakai, Sititi, and Jacobson but none of these players including Parker or Finau have the same size as Psdt or Ollivon.
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Also the big munter still doesn't exist, which is our bigger problem.
We don't even have a small munter.