2025 All Blacks v France series

Last year in the media Jason Ryan claimed he had final say over all forward selections. Ryan really likes older players. He claimed blindsides start hitting their peak at 30 when talking about Frizell. So I think we may see Bower.

The South African team that won the last RWC was a bit of an anomaly in terms of age. They got around some of that age issue with innovative use of bench.

Prior to the 2023 RWC these were the key stats for RWC winning teams:

• Starting side has an average of 50 caps per player
• Starting side has an average of 5.5 years of test rugby
• 23 has at least 850 caps total
• At least 30% of the matchday squad in the 27-29 'prime years' range

So I'm not sold on Ryan's idea of age. Especially when we refuse to make proper use of the bench.

As Razor alluded to hopefully they really are open to using the bench better. I think the Crusaders have made good use of their bench this year and its been a key reason why they've improved.

@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

He claimed blindsides start hitting their peak at 30 when talking about Frizell. So I think we may see Bower.

Weird example considering Bower isn’t a blindside…

But yes, I agree with you in that he will be selected. Razor likes comfort, he will be there.

@Landers92 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@Bovidae Picking Bower is nothing but a comfort selection which I wish Razor would stay away from. Time to find the next gen that will be in the black jersey for more than the next year or 2. Now is the time to do it.

He says he wants to be braver. Time to show it

A player like Bower might be third choice but with Williams now first choice, they have good cover in DeGroot and should invest in a less experienced player in the squad.

If there is an injury, Bower could come right in to start or go on the bench.

Sadly, the ABs need to operate a bit like a club team as we don't run an AB 15 for the full representative season, and they aren't a capture team, so we should be sending a message to players like Norris to stick around.

@Landers92

I would say his idea of prime age for prop will be even older than blindside. The point is he likes old players even though there is little to substantiate that idea that players over 30 are better.

Owen Franks, Sam Whitelock, and Brodie Retallick were all AB legends and I'm not convinced they were at their peak at 30+. In terms of AB years their best years were from 2011 to 2015.

@Bovidae said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@akan004 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris.

I am expecting Bower to be chosen as well, but it isn't a selection for the future as he'll be 35 in 2027. Norris will at least get an opportunity for the Māori.

I'm expecting them to go the other way and pick Norris.

If Ofa was available, they'd pick him. So take the opportunity while he's not there to give a younger guy a run. George is very much a known quantity - won't let you down but unlikely to be a point of difference either. It's a bit tough on guy's like GB, but omelettes and broken eggs...

@Chris-B said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@Bovidae said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@akan004 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris.

I am expecting Bower to be chosen as well, but it isn't a selection for the future as he'll be 35 in 2027. Norris will at least get an opportunity for the Māori.

I'm expecting them to go the other way and pick Norris.

If Ofa was available, they'd pick him. So take the opportunity while he's not there to give a younger guy a run. George is very much a known quantity - won't let you down but unlikely to be a point of difference either. It's a bit tough on guy's like GB, but omelettes and broken eggs...

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Be brave Razor. Be brave

@Chris-B

That would be great if it works out that way

@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@Landers92

I would say his idea of prime age for prop will be even older than blindside. The point is he likes old players even though there is little to substantiate that idea that players over 30 are better.

Owen Franks, Sam Whitelock, and Brodie Retallick were all AB legends and I'm not convinced they were at their peak at 30+. In terms of AB years their best years were from 2011 to 2015.

Franks maybe but not Whitelock. He was at his best from 2014-2019 and still performing at a high level albeit in a different role in 22 and 23.

It’s all about balancing experience and youth and I agree with others that if both Williams and EdG are fit they go with a young buck (I’m in the Numia camp ahead of Norris). But if one of those two frontliners aren’t available you have an experienced prop in the squad (doesn’t have to make the 23 necessarily) like Bower in there. Just as important as the game itself is having the right guys in the training camp to hone their craft against. That’s not being conservative or focussed on “security” but about balance and using assets available to you.

Clermont and Castres were knocked out of the Top 14 yesterday. So their players and those from La Rochelle, Pau, Montpellier, Racing Paris, Lyon, Stade Française, Perpignan and Vannes will be available for a 28 man squad to play an England XV next week and then tour NZ.

A further 14 players from the teams that lose the Semi Finals between Toulouse and Bayonne and between Bordeaux Begles and Toulon will be added before the squad reaches NZ.

Have there been any updates on Aumua?

@gt12 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

A player like Bower might be third choice but with Williams now first choice, they have good cover in DeGroot and should invest in a less experienced player in the squad.

If there is an injury, Bower could come right in to start or go on the bench.

Sadly, the ABs also need to operate a bit like a club team as we don't run an AB 15 for the full representative season, and they aren't a capture team, so we should be sending a message to players like Norris to stick around.

I agree. Bower would be underwhelming. Get Norris in there

Can Norris play both sides to a good level?

@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Can Norris play both sides to a good level?

Only a LH.

@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Can Norris play both sides to a good level?

Why does he need to play both sides well if you have two props on the bench?

@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Can Norris play both sides to a good level?

Why does he need to play both sides well if you have two props on the bench?

Just curious.

More details on that French Squad:

Forwards:

Props:
Demba Bamba, Racing, 27, 28 caps
Baptiste Erdocio, Montpellier, 25, Uncapped
Paul Mallez, Provence in Division 2, 24, Uncapped
Régis Montagne, ASM Clermont, 24, Uncapped
Rabah Slimani, Leinster, 35, 57 Caps

Hooker:
Gaëtan Barlot, Castres, 28, 9 caps
Guillaume Marchand, Lyon, 27, Uncapped

Locks:
Hugo Auradou, Pau, 21, 6 Caps.
Tyler Duguid, Montpellier, 24. Uncapped. Canadian.
Mickaël Guillard, Lyon, 24, 10 Caps.
Romain Taofifenua, Racing, 34, 54 caps (2:03!)
Théo William, Lyon, 24, Uncapped

Back Row:
Alexandre Fisher, ASM Clermont, 27, Uncapped
Lilian Trixerot, ASM Clermont, 23, 1 Cap
Jaco Von Tronder, Perpignan, 27, Uncapped, Saffa.
Cameron Woki, Racing, 26, 30 Caps, Plays Lock too.

Lots of tall timber there. A set of forwards assembled to drive mauls.

And the Backs:

Half Back:
Thibault Daubagna, Pau, 31, Uncapped
Baptiste Jauneau, Clermont, 21, 1 Cap
Nolann Le Garret, Racing, 23, 10 Caps

First Five:
Léo Barré, Stade Française, 22, 7 Caps
Léo Berdeau, Lyon, 27, Uncapped
Antonie Hastoy, La Rochelle, 28, 7 Caps

Midfield:
Aliverti Duguivalu, Perpignan, 27, Uncapped, Fijian
Gaël Fickou, Racing, 31, 94 Caps
Emilien Gaillleton, Pau, 21, 7 Caps, English
Théo Millet, Lyon, 27, Uncapped

Wing:
Maël Moustin, Montpellier, 22, Uncapped

Full Back
Théo Attissogbe, Pau, 20, 5 Caps.

I've seen this suggested as the likely French XV to play England.

Erdocio-Barlot-Demba
William-Guillard
Von Tronder- Fischer-Woki
La Garret-Berdeu
Millet - Gallieton
Moustin-Barré- Attissogbe

@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Can Norris play both sides to a good level?

Why does he need to play both sides well if you have two props on the bench?

It's bloody handy for when you lose a prop to injury and another on the same side to a card. Just ask Ricky (who probably hadn't played LH for a decade).

Attisogbe is a gun. Better than Penaud IMO. Best winger in France behind LBB.

@SouthernMann said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@SouthernMann said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@SouthernMann said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Just not an All Black.

That's how I feel about JRK

I'm not sure on whether JRK is there either. I'm just reading on the basis of timing on announcements, and what isn't being stated. I think he has the potential to be a strong 14/15. He just needs an injury free season.

I get the upside potential of JRK - I just worry about his decision making - he seems a bit flaky to me.

He has also made some really impressive decisions. This season especially, he came back into a team that needed him to, not only perform, but potentially perform miracles. That looked like it weighed on him. Hopefully with a more capable 10, there may be less pressure on him. As well as having t Tabgitau alongside him. Plus having someone like Hurley coming on with 30 minutes ot go as a miracle worker. JRK can focus on being a good fullback.

I agree. Maybe just me, but JRK seemed to make exactly the right decision when it really mattered.

That said, don't think he's quite there yet, but def. one for Robertson to keep an eye on and help develop.

Antonio Shalfoon has a good chance to be selected : he was best Crusaders' lock this year. and his inclusion could add more cohesion to the front five, next to his Crusaders teammates.

@cgrant said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Attisogbe is a gun. Better than Penaud IMO. Best winger in France behind LBB.

I agree. I think he's fantastic. I wish we had someone like him.

@cgrant said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Antonio Shalfoon has a good chance to be selected : he was best Crusaders' lock this year. and his inclusion could add more cohesion to the front five, next to his Crusaders teammates.

He’s no where near Holland, Lord or Beehre. Wee way down the pecking order just yet. He does wear the right colours though

If Shalfoon gets selected and JRK doesn't, that will give me the shits.

@sparky said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@cgrant said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Attisogbe is a gun. Better than Penaud IMO. Best winger in France behind LBB.

I agree. I think he's fantastic. I wish we had someone like him.

View embedded content

I'm sure he is immensely talented, but that highlights video didn't exactly make me think he's something we don't already have. One of the highlights was him head-highing someone.

@Bones

Frankly that's a luxury for an outlier event. With Ofa injured, assuming Williams will be fit, the obvious choices on the bench to kick things off will be De Groot, Tosi/Newell. None of who cover both sides.

@WoodysRFC said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@sparky said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@cgrant said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Attisogbe is a gun. Better than Penaud IMO. Best winger in France behind LBB.

I agree. I think he's fantastic. I wish we had someone like him.

View embedded content

I'm sure he is immensely talented, but that highlights video didn't exactly make me think he's something we don't already have. One of the highlights was him head-highing someone.

This is not a good video. He has been outstanding during the Top 14 and and the few games he played in blue. He is class and has speed to burn, more speed than the 2024 AB wingers.

A forgotten name for the All Blacks midfield below...

Players to achieve at least 50% carry dominance from at least 150 carries into contact:

Josua Tuisova (62% from 172)
Beka Gorgadze (56% from 183)
Leicester Fianga’anuku (53% from 186)
Elia Canakaivata (51% from 152)

@Wurzel I haven't forgotten Big Leicester.

I haven't seen that he's re-signed with the Mako yet (or any other bunch of poaching NPC feckers)?

That doesn't mean he hasn't - someone who watches these things more closely may be able to tell me - but, to be eligible for the ABs this year I think he has to be signed up for NPC?

In any case they don't need to rush him into the midfield - if he were to appear immediately, I reckon there's more opportunity as a wing. But, no need to rush him in there either.

In any case, I'd be amazed if Razor hasn't been watching him closely on the telly.

Here's my guess vs the OP. I reckon there will be a couple of bolters, but I'm not going to try to pick them.

@frugby said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

PROPS:
Tamaiti Williams (Crusaders)
Ethan de Groot (Highlanders)
George Bower (Crusaders) Ollie Norris (Chiefs)
Tyrel Lomax (Hurricanes)
Fletcher Newell (Crusaders)
Pasilio Tosi (Hurricanes)

HOOKERS:
Codie Taylor (Crusaders)
Samisoni Taukei'aho (Chiefs)
George Bell (Crusaders) (Aumua if fit, but if not - Bell)

LOCKS:
Scott Barrett (c) (Crusaders)
Tupou Vaa'i (Chiefs)
Patrick Tuipulotu (Blues)
Fabian Holland (Highlanders)

LOOSE FORWARDS:
Ethan Blackadder (Crusaders)
Samipeni Finau (Chiefs)
Ardie Savea (Moana Pasifika)
Peter Lakai (Hurricanes)
Dalton Papalii (Blues)
Wallace Sititi (Chiefs)
Christian Lio-Willie (Crusaders) Luke Jacobson (Chiefs)

HALFBACKS:
Cameron Roigard (Hurricanes)
Cortez Ratima (Chiefs)
Noah Hotham (Crusaders)

FIRST FIVES:
Damian McKenzie (Chiefs)
Beauden Barrett (Blues)

MIDFIELDERS:
Jordie Barrett (Hurricanes)
Quinn Tupaea (Chiefs)
Rieko Ioane (Blues)
Billy Proctor (Hurricanes)
David Havili (Crusaders)

OUTSIDE BACKS:
Caleb Clarke (Blues)
AJ Lam (Blues)
Jacob Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens (Highlanders) Leroy Carter (Chiefs)
Sevu Reece (Crusaders)
Will Jordan (Crusaders)
Ruben Love (Hurricanes)

Unavailable due to injury: Asafo Aumua (Hurricanes), Simon Parker (Chiefs), Anton Lienert-Brown (Chiefs), Caleb Tangitau (Highlanders)

I think they'll pick the younger Norris as opposed to the known quantity Bower.

Far from beyond the realms of possibility that CLW gets picked - he's been playing well, but I think there's enough No. 8s already - and Jacobson's utility value and experience probably gets him in.

As per last year, I think Dave Havili is a nice to have, but not a must have. They need Tupaea to effectively cover both midfield positions (Lam can do the same if QT were to be injured) and ALB and Big Leicester likely to enter the frame later in the season.

Picking AJ gives an opportunity to make the bolder, but probably more risky pick of Carter over Narawa - but, that could easily go the other way.

@Chris-B said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@Wurzel I haven't forgotten Big Leicester.

I haven't seen that he's re-signed with the Mako yet (or any other bunch of poaching NPC feckers)?

That doesn't mean he hasn't - someone who watches these things more closely may be able to tell me - but, to be eligible for the ABs this year I think he has to be signed up for NPC?

In any case they don't need to rush him into the midfield - if he were to appear immediately, I reckon there's more opportunity as a wing. But, no need to rush him in there either.

In any case, I'd be amazed if Razor hasn't been watching him closely on the telly.

Yes Leicester has signed with Ta$man .

@Wurzel he's been outstanding in the Top14. Easily one of the best midfielders in the comp, if not the best.
We currently have the best midfielder in the URC. And the best midfielder in the Top14 (arguably).

There's a lot of pessimism around, but I think we're close to being very good again.

@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Turns out Fihaki has missed the most tackles this season of any back from the NZ teams squads who played in the semis

So theoretically his work on both sides of the ball won’t be good enough…

Will Jordie usurp the NZ based midfielders or will playing in SR be counted in the favour of the rest. By chance.

@Gunner said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

Turns out Fihaki has missed the most tackles this season of any back from the NZ teams squads who played in the semis

So theoretically his work on both sides of the ball won’t be good enough…

Or just his work either side of ball isn't good enough.

I like the idea of Leicester into the squad at some point this year. What will be of interest to me is who makes way for him.

@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:

I like the idea of Leicester into the squad at some point this year. What will be of interest to me is who makes way for him.

Impact off the bench at wing or 13 I imagine