West Indies tour of NZ

I wonder if that was Ajaz Patel's last hurrah? 37, no sub continent tours this year. He's played in England before so maybe he gets a call up for that, and he's up to 91 test wickets (at a shade under 30 - very impressive!)

Vettori will always have the tag for our best spinner, but a lot of his value was that you could rely on him to be effective in our conditions plus the additional skills he brought. As an out and out attacking spinner he was pretty limited (a big part of that was the early back injury that forced him to remodel his action).

If we were playing on a real spinning wicket, I think Patel is probably close to our all time XI.

@Cyclops said in West Indies tour of NZ:

I wonder if that was Ajaz Patel's last hurrah? 37, no sub continent tours this year. He's played in England before so maybe he gets a call up for that, and he's up to 91 test wickets (at a shade under 30 - very impressive!)

Vettori will always have the tag for our best spinner, but a lot of his value was that you could rely on him to be effective in our conditions plus the additional skills he brought. As an out and out attacking spinner he was pretty limited (a big part of that was the early back injury that forced him to remodel his action).

If we were playing on a real spinning wicket, I think Patel is probably close to our all time XI.

He's a spinner, he's barely played. He could continue until he's 40

NZ up to second in the World Test Championship behind Australia.

@Cyclops said in West Indies tour of NZ:

I wonder if that was Ajaz Patel's last hurrah? 37, no sub continent tours this year. He's played in England before so maybe he gets a call up for that, and he's up to 91 test wickets (at a shade under 30 - very impressive!)

Vettori will always have the tag for our best spinner, but a lot of his value was that you could rely on him to be effective in our conditions plus the additional skills he brought. As an out and out attacking spinner he was pretty limited (a big part of that was the early back injury that forced him to remodel his action).

If we were playing on a real spinning wicket, I think Patel is probably close to our all time XI.

As much love I have for Vettori especially his ability with the bat (still the all time test run scorer at 8 ) you’d just have to include Patel as your spinner in an all time nz side. 10 wickets in an innings, won us tests with the ball time and time again. Averaging under 30.
He was just never given a regular chance to play, we insisted we needed another Vettori by always picking the likes of Santner.
Also ding bro we had a generational period with the beat fast bowling group meaning we didn’t really need spin (other than overseas)

Vettori was his generations Wags. Everyone loved him. Got absolutely everything out of himself as a player.

Interesting question, the thought of not picking him seems insane but Patel has been pretty sensational when he has actually played.

Six tests runs centuries, longevity and captaincy and bailing us out of the shit certainly helps Vettoris case but I can’t see him getting ten in an innings.

Dan the man was no Warnie, Murali or Kumble but still had a bloody good record overall. No disgrace being behind those guys as the best of his era in that ‘next tier’.

He’s still in my team with Patel an option as a squad member.

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

Latham with 3 test Centuries and Captaining the team to a 2 -0 Test Series should also be in the mix for Man of the Series.
Duffy also leading the attack should in the mix.

and keeping at a pinch too ! completely forgot his first ton.........

But there were quite a few good batting performances but taking wickets wins matches, would have to be Duffy now I've thought about it.

Black Caps top five is absolutely set in stone barring injury.

Hay should replace Blundell. Whether he will is at the whim of the selectors.

Phillips wasn't hugely compelling in terms of batting and bowling, sort of went ok, absolutely dynamic fielding though, will be interesting what happens when Santner is fit. Bracewell will only get a look in if those two are both broken.

Duffy as others have mentioned has to be considered for when everyone is available, particularly with the injury prone nature of the others.

Smith and Foulkes a bit meh. Neither took their chances for a big performance.

Rae filled in admirably.

Tickner bloody good until injured. He'll be back.

Nice to see Patel get wickets at home as yet another bowling option.

Yep agree with all of that, I think you summed it up perfectly,I saw it the same way.
Duffy adds some depth with Henry,O’Rourke and Jamieson back.
You know my thoughts on the wk that is a no brainer for me.
Rae worked hard he didn’t let us down but he sits way back from the 4 mentioned above.
Smith and Foulkes not really test bowlers or allrounders as yet.
Tickner went well but does spray it a bit he is a ok sub if one the top 4 go down.

I hope we have our top bowling attack for 3 big test series coming,England,India and Australia we will struggle big time if we have to select from outside those 4.

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

Latham with 3 test Centuries and Captaining the team to a 2 -0 Test Series should also be in the mix for Man of the Series.
Duffy also leading the attack should in the mix.

and keeping at a pinch too ! completely forgot his first ton.........

But there were quite a few good batting performances but taking wickets wins matches, would have to be Duffy now I've thought about it.

Black Caps top five is absolutely set in stone barring injury.

Hay should replace Blundell. Whether he will is at the whim of the selectors.

Phillips wasn't hugely compelling in terms of batting and bowling, sort of went ok, absolutely dynamic fielding though, will be interesting what happens when Santner is fit. Bracewell will only get a look in if those two are both broken.

Duffy as others have mentioned has to be considered for when everyone is available, particularly with the injury prone nature of the others.

Smith and Foulkes a bit meh. Neither took their chances for a big performance.

Rae filled in admirably.

Tickner bloody good until injured. He'll be back.

Nice to see Patel get wickets at home as yet another bowling option.

Yep agree with all of that, I think you summed it up perfectly,I saw it the same way.
Duffy adds some depth with Henry,O’Rourke and Jamieson back.
> You know my thoughts on the wk that is a no brainer for me.
Rae worked hard he didn’t let us down but he sits way back from the 4 mentioned above.
Smith and Foulkes not really test bowlers or allrounders as yet.
Tickner went well but does spray it a bit he is a ok sub if one the top 4 go down.

I hope we have our top bowling attack for 3 big test series coming,England,India and Australia we will struggle big time if we have to select from outside those 4.

First class and test averages don’t always marry up for whatever reason but if he can keep with an average of 40 plus he will be an absolute gun for NZ.

Gilly’s don’t grow on trees, this guy needs to be nurtured particularly as he is still young with years of international cricket ahead of him.

Blundell has done a job ( despite batting woes of late ) but this guy is the future.

As someone said earlier, no one owns the jersey/cap

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

Latham with 3 test Centuries and Captaining the team to a 2 -0 Test Series should also be in the mix for Man of the Series.
Duffy also leading the attack should in the mix.

and keeping at a pinch too ! completely forgot his first ton.........

But there were quite a few good batting performances but taking wickets wins matches, would have to be Duffy now I've thought about it.

Black Caps top five is absolutely set in stone barring injury.

Hay should replace Blundell. Whether he will is at the whim of the selectors.

Phillips wasn't hugely compelling in terms of batting and bowling, sort of went ok, absolutely dynamic fielding though, will be interesting what happens when Santner is fit. Bracewell will only get a look in if those two are both broken.

Duffy as others have mentioned has to be considered for when everyone is available, particularly with the injury prone nature of the others.

Smith and Foulkes a bit meh. Neither took their chances for a big performance.

Rae filled in admirably.

Tickner bloody good until injured. He'll be back.

Nice to see Patel get wickets at home as yet another bowling option.

Yep agree with all of that, I think you summed it up perfectly,I saw it the same way.
Duffy adds some depth with Henry,O’Rourke and Jamieson back.
> You know my thoughts on the wk that is a no brainer for me.
Rae worked hard he didn’t let us down but he sits way back from the 4 mentioned above.
Smith and Foulkes not really test bowlers or allrounders as yet.
Tickner went well but does spray it a bit he is a ok sub if one the top 4 go down.

I hope we have our top bowling attack for 3 big test series coming,England,India and Australia we will struggle big time if we have to select from outside those 4.

First class and test averages don’t always marry up for whatever reason but if he can keep with an average of 40 plus he will be an absolute gun for NZ.

Gilly’s don’t grow on trees, this guy needs to be nurtured particularly as he is still young with years of international cricket ahead of him.

Blundell has done a job ( despite batting woes of late ) but this guy is the future.

As someone said earlier, no one owns the jersey/cap

Hay for me is one of the best Gloveman I have seen he moves really well, gets in to catching positions easily.
The sort of WK you don't notice unless you are watching him intently just gets it done with ease.
It is harder to find good WK these days a lot of the young players coming through give it up or don't want to take it on, they see it as too much hard work which it is, it is a skill you have to keep working on.
His batting has real potential.
Blundel was a good player but time has now caught up with him it is not easy being a Wk on the wrong side of 35.

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

Latham with 3 test Centuries and Captaining the team to a 2 -0 Test Series should also be in the mix for Man of the Series.
Duffy also leading the attack should in the mix.

and keeping at a pinch too ! completely forgot his first ton.........

But there were quite a few good batting performances but taking wickets wins matches, would have to be Duffy now I've thought about it.

Black Caps top five is absolutely set in stone barring injury.

Hay should replace Blundell. Whether he will is at the whim of the selectors.

Phillips wasn't hugely compelling in terms of batting and bowling, sort of went ok, absolutely dynamic fielding though, will be interesting what happens when Santner is fit. Bracewell will only get a look in if those two are both broken.

Duffy as others have mentioned has to be considered for when everyone is available, particularly with the injury prone nature of the others.

Smith and Foulkes a bit meh. Neither took their chances for a big performance.

Rae filled in admirably.

Tickner bloody good until injured. He'll be back.

Nice to see Patel get wickets at home as yet another bowling option.

Yep agree with all of that, I think you summed it up perfectly,I saw it the same way.
Duffy adds some depth with Henry,O’Rourke and Jamieson back.
> You know my thoughts on the wk that is a no brainer for me.
Rae worked hard he didn’t let us down but he sits way back from the 4 mentioned above.
Smith and Foulkes not really test bowlers or allrounders as yet.
Tickner went well but does spray it a bit he is a ok sub if one the top 4 go down.

I hope we have our top bowling attack for 3 big test series coming,England,India and Australia we will struggle big time if we have to select from outside those 4.

First class and test averages don’t always marry up for whatever reason but if he can keep with an average of 40 plus he will be an absolute gun for NZ.

Gilly’s don’t grow on trees, this guy needs to be nurtured particularly as he is still young with years of international cricket ahead of him.

Blundell has done a job ( despite batting woes of late ) but this guy is the future.

As someone said earlier, no one owns the jersey/cap

Hay for me is one of the best Gloveman I have seen he moves really well, gets in to catching positions easily.
The sort of WK you don't notice unless you are watching him intently just gets it done with ease.
It is harder to find good WK these days a lot of the young players coming through give it up or don't want to take it on, they see it as too much hard work which it is, it is a skill you have to keep working on.
His batting has real potential.
Blundel was a good player but time has now caught up with him it is not easy being a Wk on the wrong side of 35.

Yeah back in the day specialist keepers averaged 20 odd or in some cases even lower. I think Alec Stewart was one of the first to change that, Jack Russell was supposedly the better keeper but Stewart filled the role at test level really well and his batting spoke for itself.

Very little to go on but from what I’ve seen in his only test Hay was brilliant behind the stumps whereas I think @Virgil pointed put that Blundell dropped one yesterday.

Keepers don’t have tangible stats like batsmen and bowlers though so hard to gauge.

Heard Wags talking on Sport Nation yesterday evening and he reckoned that was the best test pitch he had ever seen in New Zealand.

He said usually we have to prepare green pitches that do plenty on the first couple of days, because our pitches don't break up as the match goes on. As with Hagley, they just become roads and a battle of attrition to bowl teams out. Reckoned this was pretty much the first test pitch he'd ever seen that had cracks that opened up later in the test and became more difficult to bat on.

Thought that we missed a trick not using the heavy roller on Day 4 to break the pitch up - but, after the test was over he asked the groundsman to run the heavy roller over the pitch to see what happened - said it was unbelievable to watch all the plates moving under the roller. A really interesting interview if you can find it - between 5-6 pm yesterday.

Wagner is obsessed with the heavy roller. Basically every commentary stint he'd mention the heavy roller at least once.

I agree with him on the pitch though - was a really fun pitch with a bit for everyone.

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

Latham with 3 test Centuries and Captaining the team to a 2 -0 Test Series should also be in the mix for Man of the Series.
Duffy also leading the attack should in the mix.

and keeping at a pinch too ! completely forgot his first ton.........

But there were quite a few good batting performances but taking wickets wins matches, would have to be Duffy now I've thought about it.

Black Caps top five is absolutely set in stone barring injury.

Hay should replace Blundell. Whether he will is at the whim of the selectors.

Phillips wasn't hugely compelling in terms of batting and bowling, sort of went ok, absolutely dynamic fielding though, will be interesting what happens when Santner is fit. Bracewell will only get a look in if those two are both broken.

Duffy as others have mentioned has to be considered for when everyone is available, particularly with the injury prone nature of the others.

Smith and Foulkes a bit meh. Neither took their chances for a big performance.

Rae filled in admirably.

Tickner bloody good until injured. He'll be back.

Nice to see Patel get wickets at home as yet another bowling option.

Yep agree with all of that, I think you summed it up perfectly,I saw it the same way.
Duffy adds some depth with Henry,O’Rourke and Jamieson back.
> You know my thoughts on the wk that is a no brainer for me.
Rae worked hard he didn’t let us down but he sits way back from the 4 mentioned above.
Smith and Foulkes not really test bowlers or allrounders as yet.
Tickner went well but does spray it a bit he is a ok sub if one the top 4 go down.

I hope we have our top bowling attack for 3 big test series coming,England,India and Australia we will struggle big time if we have to select from outside those 4.

First class and test averages don’t always marry up for whatever reason but if he can keep with an average of 40 plus he will be an absolute gun for NZ.

Gilly’s don’t grow on trees, this guy needs to be nurtured particularly as he is still young with years of international cricket ahead of him.

Blundell has done a job ( despite batting woes of late ) but this guy is the future.

As someone said earlier, no one owns the jersey/cap

Hay for me is one of the best Gloveman I have seen he moves really well, gets in to catching positions easily.
The sort of WK you don't notice unless you are watching him intently just gets it done with ease.
It is harder to find good WK these days a lot of the young players coming through give it up or don't want to take it on, they see it as too much hard work which it is, it is a skill you have to keep working on.
His batting has real potential.
Blundel was a good player but time has now caught up with him it is not easy being a Wk on the wrong side of 35.

Yeah back in the day specialist keepers averaged 20 odd or in some cases even lower. I think Alec Stewart was one of the first to change that, Jack Russell was supposedly the better keeper but Stewart filled the role at test level really well and his batting spoke for itself.

Very little to go on but from what I’ve seen in his only test Hay was brilliant behind the stumps whereas I think @Virgil pointed put that Blundell dropped one yesterday.

Keepers don’t have tangible stats like batsmen and bowlers though so hard to gauge.

Byes and dropped catches are key IMO. The keeper can't control the quality of the bowling (although can direct some improvements) but the least they can do is not drop anything (occasional impossible chances aside) and not give away runs (the occasional uncatchable bouncer aside). Video analysis helps but obviously that's not a stat as such.

Batting averages were always relevant, they were just seen as less important than keeping skill - a useful tiebreaker if a country had two similar quality options (Alan Knott was selected over Bob Taylor because of batting as an older example), but not as important as now. Shows the importance of all-rounders - if a team doesn't have all-rounders who can bat and bowl, the keeper needs to be able to bat.

Obligatory CricInfo Statsguru - this is all 85 keepers (surprisingly few) who played at least 20 test matches as designated keeper, in batting average order. 35 have averages > 30, with most of those (26) starting in the 1990s or later. 69 (nice) have averages > 20. The median keeper was Moin Khan (28.67).

@Godder said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:

Latham with 3 test Centuries and Captaining the team to a 2 -0 Test Series should also be in the mix for Man of the Series.
Duffy also leading the attack should in the mix.

and keeping at a pinch too ! completely forgot his first ton.........

But there were quite a few good batting performances but taking wickets wins matches, would have to be Duffy now I've thought about it.

Black Caps top five is absolutely set in stone barring injury.

Hay should replace Blundell. Whether he will is at the whim of the selectors.

Phillips wasn't hugely compelling in terms of batting and bowling, sort of went ok, absolutely dynamic fielding though, will be interesting what happens when Santner is fit. Bracewell will only get a look in if those two are both broken.

Duffy as others have mentioned has to be considered for when everyone is available, particularly with the injury prone nature of the others.

Smith and Foulkes a bit meh. Neither took their chances for a big performance.

Rae filled in admirably.

Tickner bloody good until injured. He'll be back.

Nice to see Patel get wickets at home as yet another bowling option.

Yep agree with all of that, I think you summed it up perfectly,I saw it the same way.
Duffy adds some depth with Henry,O’Rourke and Jamieson back.
> You know my thoughts on the wk that is a no brainer for me.
Rae worked hard he didn’t let us down but he sits way back from the 4 mentioned above.
Smith and Foulkes not really test bowlers or allrounders as yet.
Tickner went well but does spray it a bit he is a ok sub if one the top 4 go down.

I hope we have our top bowling attack for 3 big test series coming,England,India and Australia we will struggle big time if we have to select from outside those 4.

First class and test averages don’t always marry up for whatever reason but if he can keep with an average of 40 plus he will be an absolute gun for NZ.

Gilly’s don’t grow on trees, this guy needs to be nurtured particularly as he is still young with years of international cricket ahead of him.

Blundell has done a job ( despite batting woes of late ) but this guy is the future.

As someone said earlier, no one owns the jersey/cap

Hay for me is one of the best Gloveman I have seen he moves really well, gets in to catching positions easily.
The sort of WK you don't notice unless you are watching him intently just gets it done with ease.
It is harder to find good WK these days a lot of the young players coming through give it up or don't want to take it on, they see it as too much hard work which it is, it is a skill you have to keep working on.
His batting has real potential.
Blundel was a good player but time has now caught up with him it is not easy being a Wk on the wrong side of 35.

Yeah back in the day specialist keepers averaged 20 odd or in some cases even lower. I think Alec Stewart was one of the first to change that, Jack Russell was supposedly the better keeper but Stewart filled the role at test level really well and his batting spoke for itself.

Very little to go on but from what I’ve seen in his only test Hay was brilliant behind the stumps whereas I think @Virgil pointed put that Blundell dropped one yesterday.

Keepers don’t have tangible stats like batsmen and bowlers though so hard to gauge.

Byes and dropped catches are key IMO. The keeper can't control the quality of the bowling (although can direct some improvements) but the least they can do is not drop anything (occasional impossible chances aside) and not give away runs (the occasional uncatchable bouncer aside). Video analysis helps but obviously that's not a stat as such.

Batting averages were always relevant, they were just seen as less important than keeping skill - a useful tiebreaker if a country had two similar quality options (Alan Knott was selected over Bob Taylor because of batting as an older example), but not as important as now. Shows the importance of all-rounders - if a team doesn't have all-rounders who can bat and bowl, the keeper needs to be able to bat.

Obligatory CricInfo Statsguru - this is all 85 keepers (surprisingly few) who played at least 20 test matches as designated keeper, in batting average order. 35 have averages > 30, with most of those (26) starting in the 1990s or later. 69 (nice) have averages > 20. The median keeper was Moin Khan (28.67).

Andy Flower is often forgotten about, had an amazing career especially when you think he was playing for Zimbabwe
For a long time Gilchrist averaged well over 50 was as high as 60 early in his career
We had it good with Watling too, he would be our goat as far as keepers go

Incredible that there are only two guys with 10+ centuries in that list. Shown how hard it is to bat for a long time when you're also keeping wicket.

Watling didn't quite get there (7 as keeper) but he is one of only 9 keepers to also score a double century.

Special mention to Brendon Kuruppu who scored a double opening the batting for Sri Lanka, carrying his bat, then keeping wicket for the remainder of the match in a high scoring draw (he never kept wicket in a test again - who could blame him?).

Also, most keepers come in at 6 or later, so not as many opportunities. Still shows just how good Flower and Gilchrist were.

How many times did Gilchrist come in to bat with Oz 125/5 and a couple of hours or so later they were 390/5
He’s up there with Warne as some one who changed the game of cricket.

I'd love a stat on how well a player performed based on the score when they came into bat. It feels like Watling produced his best innings when we were 120/4, but struggled when it was 300/4 because his game wasn't really to go out and play aggressively, but he was selfless enough that he'd have a go and often get out cheaply. I dunno how accurate that is or if it's swayed by a couple of big innings when we were under the pump.

@Cyclops said in West Indies tour of NZ:

I'd love a stat on how well a player performed based on the score when they came into bat. It feels like Watling produced his best innings when we were 120/4, but struggled when it was 300/4 because his game wasn't really to go out and play aggressively, but he was selfless enough that he'd have a go and often get out cheaply. I dunno how accurate that is or if it's swayed by a couple of big innings when we were under the pump.

Watling being part of 2 record 350+ run partnerships says a lot. He was clutch more often than not when we were in a pickle.
Just as valuable as Gilchrist just not in the same manner of batting

@Virgil said in West Indies tour of NZ:

@Cyclops said in West Indies tour of NZ:

I'd love a stat on how well a player performed based on the score when they came into bat. It feels like Watling produced his best innings when we were 120/4, but struggled when it was 300/4 because his game wasn't really to go out and play aggressively, but he was selfless enough that he'd have a go and often get out cheaply. I dunno how accurate that is or if it's swayed by a couple of big innings when we were under the pump.

Watling being part of 2 record 350+ run partnerships says a lot. He was clutch more often than not when we were in a pickle.
Just as valuable as Gilchrist just not in the same manner of batting

Watling > McCullum.

Very clear cut for me.

Kept for longer, didn't play as many spectacular innings but more reliable when it counted.

The Black Caps won 34 out of 75 test matches he played. That is incredible ( McCullum 30 in 101 )

Would probably make a better coach too.

If I was doing a less than expert ranking of NZ keepers it would be something like.......

Watling
McCullum
Smith
Blundell
Parore

First two should be self explanatory, I remember Smithy being sensational in partnership with Hadlee although being very hit or miss with his batting ( as guys were in his era ) he may have been a better keeper than one and two......

Blundell despite his woes still did a good job overall even if Hay looks a superior replacement and Parore was a classy keeper and lovely looking batsman ( record doesn't really indicate it )

Apparently Wadsworth was very good but I'm too young to have seen him play.

Would any others warrant a mention ?