Clever selection by Razor. The England coaches will be studying Proctor’s 8 Tests to see what threat he poses, therefore wasting their entire week
@Bovidae said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan The Barrett's have a history of YCs at Twickenham.
I think ALB has the most recent history of YCs there…
@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:
I would’ve started Ioane on the left wing not because of any renewed dynamism, but because he’s solid and we have our first choice out. But the main reason is because I would’ve like to have seen QT and LF get another start together in the midfield. Whilst there were a few issues last week with both showing a desire to tuck it up the jumper rather than pass, both are actually capable of distributing and may have been better for the run.
Leicester’s defence makes me prefer him on wing.
@Dan54 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
@No-Quarter said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:
@frugby said in England Vs All Blacks:
This All Blacks team is screaming for some X-Factor on the wing.
For me that's Will Jordan. He really doesn't have the skills to be a Test 15.
Who does? I’m not convinced by Love (I think he is a 10). Who are the alternatives? NZ are crying out for the new Israel Dagg to make his appearance.
And here's the other thing, Jordie is still in the team, and is an even better player than he was back then, and has the skillset to completely diffuse opposition bombs which are a key weakness for us right now. Jordie is so much better at 15 than Jordan it's not even funny.
They've had Jordie in the backfield fielding bombs this year and he's dropped his fair share.
I watch most teams play, and yet to see a player take all high balls, whether chasing or receiving.
Also with noone beinge able to screen now, it makes it even harder.
And so the main issue now is not our catching but rather our kicking and chasing. Particularly with the latter, our guys just don’t seem to be willing to launch themselves into the zone in the same way as say the wee Saffa wingers do.
@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:
I would’ve started Ioane on the left wing not because of any renewed dynamism, but because he’s solid and we have our first choice out. But the main reason is because I would’ve like to have seen QT and LF get another start together in the midfield. Whilst there were a few issues last week with both showing a desire to tuck it up the jumper rather than pass, both are actually capable of distributing and may have been better for the run.
Leicester’s defence makes me prefer him on wing.
I assume he'll see a few high balls.
Depending on that we may want him quickly back to the midfield.
I am not entirely against the selection of Parker, but I find it interesting that on the face of things, they totally dropped him from the 23 last week, and then have brought him straight back into the starting XV this week.
@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:
A big opportunity for Parker. I’m glad they picked him to start. I much prefer Sititi in the role he has played off the bench.
Proctor I’m a little less sold on but he did a couple of good things when he came on last weekend.
ALB will be as fresh as fresh can be. If only TNT were fit.
I thought they'd stick with the starting loose forwards from last week - with Kirifi or maybe Parker on the bench.
But, I probably like this more - largely because Sititi offers more impact from the bench than the other two and Parker should help with the lineout for the first hour. Needs to play better than his last couple of outings.
Would've liked to see the same three from last week roll out and see what they can do vs England, but I'm not enamoured with DK or SP on the bench.
I guess they think ALB covers the whole midfield better than the other options, but it's pretty bland.
ALB hasn’t played since the second RC test against Argentina nearly three months ago. He’ll be a bit underdone, won’t he? Perhaps they’re trying to ensure the now steady flow of yellow cards continues?
@gt12 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:
I would’ve started Ioane on the left wing not because of any renewed dynamism, but because he’s solid and we have our first choice out. But the main reason is because I would’ve like to have seen QT and LF get another start together in the midfield. Whilst there were a few issues last week with both showing a desire to tuck it up the jumper rather than pass, both are actually capable of distributing and may have been better for the run.
Leicester’s defence makes me prefer him on wing.
I assume he'll see a few high balls.
Depending on that we may want him quickly back to the midfield.
Other than playing Australia, we are going to see plenty of kicked ball to wing regardless of who is out there. Just the nature of the game today.
@Bovidae said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan The Barrett's have a history of YCs at Twickenham.
Following in the steps of the other famous trio of AB 'B' brothers, the Brownlies.
@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
I guess they think ALB covers the whole midfield better than the other options, but it's pretty bland.
I think if Clarke and Jordie were fit Fainga’anuku would be our best bench back option at this point. Next year post Super rugby things might change.
@frugby said in England Vs All Blacks:
I am not entirely against the selection of Parker, but I find it interesting that on the face of things, they totally dropped him from the 23 last week, and then have brought him straight back into the starting XV this week.
I think that was both a horses for courses and rotation approach - always expected Parker to be back this week, was just a question of who would drop to the pine.
@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
Anyways, speaking of unpaid labour and the exploitation of the working class, this whole high ball-discussion reminds me of a recent Gary’s Economics-video where he’s talking about the rising housing prices. He makes the point that everyone thinks their specific city has a housing crisis while, in reality, it’s a global issue, necessitated by the growing inequality between the ultrarich and the working poor. [Just in case I happened to have piqued someone’s interest, this is the video I’m referring to: youtube.co/watch?v=BTlUyS-T-_4]
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
Right now, if your halfback has a solid kicking game, chances are you’re going to be handsomely rewarded for going to the boot. Quietly, box-kicking 9s have been making a clear comeback: Nic White was crucial for the Wallaby success against both the Lions and the Boks, Reinach’s contestable kicking has been instrumental in the post-Eden Park Bok resurgence, and someone like Ben Spencer, the 33-year old Bath halfback, has suddenly become an important piece within the English attacking puzzle.
Galthié has already been criticized for quite a few selection errors against the Springboks but arguably his biggest one was selecting Le Garrec ahead of Maxime Lucu. Le Garrec’s kicks were consistently too deep at the Stade de France which gave the Boks backfield breathing space. Whenever the kicks were on the money, there was little that Kolbe, Willemse and Arendse could do against the French chasers.
Anyway, all of this to say that this isn’t something uniquely pertinent to the All Blacks alone. But where the ABs have been lacking, I think, is in those moments right before and after high balls. What the ABs need to do, more than anything else, is work on their defensive retreat and make sure that any spilt ball from the high ball is cleaned up.
This will be especially critical against England. The English chasers have very little interest in actually catching the ball: they will aim to flood the receipt space with their band of chasing wingers/flankers, making sure that the AB back 3 can’t catch cleanly. After that, they can either (1) attack the space behind themselves (see Pollock try against Wallabies) or (2) release the ball to a backline that is already expertly aligned by George Ford and ready to pounce.
So in my view, while the catch is obviously important, it’s only the first step. What is as crucial, if not more, is the collective coordination both before and immediately after the catch. The AB backline will need to match the speed of English realignment and get off the line, making sure that England don’t have the clean width of the field to attack in these kinds of situations.
@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
Anyways, speaking of unpaid labour and the exploitation of the working class, this whole high ball-discussion reminds me of a recent Gary’s Economics-video where he’s talking about the rising housing prices. He makes the point that everyone thinks their specific city has a housing crisis while, in reality, it’s a global issue, necessitated by the growing inequality between the ultrarich and the working poor. [Just in case I happened to have piqued someone’s interest, this is the video I’m referring to: youtube.co/watch?v=BTlUyS-T-_4]
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
Right now, if your halfback has a solid kicking game, chances are you’re going to be handsomely rewarded for going to the boot. Quietly, box-kicking 9s have been making a clear comeback: Nic White was crucial for the Wallaby success against both the Lions and the Boks, Reinach’s contestable kicking has been instrumental in the post-Eden Park Bok resurgence, and someone like Ben Spencer, the 33-year old Bath halfback, has suddenly become an important piece within the English attacking puzzle.
Galthié has already been criticized for quite a few selection errors against the Springboks but arguably his biggest one was selecting Le Garrec ahead of Maxime Lucu. Le Garrec’s kicks were consistently too deep at the Stade de France which gave the Boks backfield breathing space. Whenever the kicks were on the money, there was little that Kolbe, Willemse and Arendse could do against the French chasers.
Anyway, all of this to say that this isn’t something uniquely pertinent to the All Blacks alone. But where the ABs have been lacking, I think, is in those moments right before and after high balls. What the ABs need to do, more than anything else, is work on their defensive retreat and make sure that any spilt ball from the high ball is cleaned up.
This will be especially critical against England. The English chasers have very little interest in actually catching the ball: they will aim to flood the receipt space with their band of chasing wingers/flankers, making sure that the AB back 3 can’t catch cleanly. After that, they can either (1) attack the space behind themselves (see Pollock try against Wallabies) or (2) release the ball to a backline that is already expertly aligned by George Ford and ready to pounce.
So in my view, while the catch is obviously important, it’s only the first step. What is as crucial, if not more, is the collective coordination both before and immediately after the catch. The AB backline will need to match the speed of English realignment and get off the line, making sure that England don’t have the clean width of the field to attack in these kinds of situations.
Don't disagree with any of that
But it would also be great to select players who can catch
Last November
What happened to Tele'a?
That's the 'X Factor' you're missing. His finish for his second try was easily as impressive as DMac's last weekend. He beat three defenders who were in position to tackle him not lunging for him.
And how easy was Jordan's untouched run-in when BB attacks the line keeping the defence guessing?
@Grooter said in England Vs All Blacks:
Anton being selected in our national team ruffles my feathers, two of his most recent games of rugby he got bullied by the Stags 12 Peni & under the roof in Dunedin against otago he looked like he was running in mud, it sounds like I have an agenda sure but I just don't think he's as good as he was 5 even 2 years ago
Great servant. Been mucked about endlessly but really should have been asked to retire with grace.
@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mauss There's a very strong argument that rising house prices in 'desirable' places are linked globally to a plague of planning and health and safety regulations. In other words a supply problem.
So kind of like a Weberian analysis where an overly rationalized society, enabled by a strict division of labour, produces an overly rigid bureaucracy that restricts the demand-oriented flow of resources?
Or, to put it in rugby terms: that would be like a coaching team focusing on incredibly specific skills – say, I don’t know, falling offloads? – due to a highly rationalized training schedule, rather than allocate time and energy to an immediate, very obvious issue at hand, like, just to give an example, high ball-reception?
I don’t know. That just doesn’t sound very plausible to me.
@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:
@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mauss There's a very strong argument that rising house prices in 'desirable' places are linked globally to a plague of planning and health and safety regulations. In other words a supply problem.
So kind of like a Weberian analysis where an overly rationalized society, enabled by a strict division of labour, produces an overly rigid bureaucracy that restricts the demand-oriented flow of resources?
Or, to put it in rugby terms: that would be like a coaching team focusing on incredibly specific skills – say, I don’t know, falling offloads? – due to a highly rationalized training schedule, rather than allocate time and energy to an immediate, very obvious issue at hand, like, just to give an example, high ball-reception?
I don’t know. That just doesn’t sound very plausible to me.
There's a correlation (at least in the US) between 'desirability' of location and the ease of blocking new buildings. Homelessness is more evident in affluent cities (than poorer ones), for example.
@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
There's a correlation (at least in the US) between 'desirability' of location and the ease of blocking new buildings. Homelessness is more evident in affluent cities (than poorer ones), for example.
I really need to work on my joke delivery.
On form S Barrett is a world class lock, but we haven't seen it for awhile. I'm ok with him playing, but if doesn't perform, then it has to be time to look at other options, as the other locks are looking better than him now.
ALB is a bit of a joke, my memories of now are coming on and getting carded, I understand we need coverage at 12, but there has to be a better solution. If he comes on, tries too hard and gives away a card again then he has to go.
I would keep developing LF at 13, he is the only 13 in recent memory to look threatening. Line breaks at 13 have been very few and far between. Procter was the form Super player at 13, but it has not translated to test for some reason.
Otherwise I think its about the team we all expected.
@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:
ALB sucks as a bench option
Gets a bench spot
Make it make sense....
Sack the clown.
I reckon the Barrett’s have the Epstein files under lock and key.
There is no other explanation.
@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
Right now, if your halfback has a solid kicking game, chances are you’re going to be handsomely rewarded for going to the boot. Quietly, box-kicking 9s have been making a clear comeback: Nic White was crucial for the Wallaby success against both the Lions and the Boks, Reinach’s contestable kicking has been instrumental in the post-Eden Park Bok resurgence, and someone like Ben Spencer, the 33-year old Bath halfback, has suddenly become an important piece within the English attacking puzzle.
Galthié has already been criticized for quite a few selection errors against the Springboks but arguably his biggest one was selecting Le Garrec ahead of Maxime Lucu. Le Garrec’s kicks were consistently too deep at the Stade de France which gave the Boks backfield breathing space. Whenever the kicks were on the money, there was little that Kolbe, Willemse and Arendse could do against the French chasers.
This seems to chime with your analysis:
Check out Penaud's kick chase!
I think I would have had reiko on the bench to give the option of putting leister back in the midfield if required
@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mauss I should have clocked that from the Gary Stevenson reference!
I like him. Not so much as an economist per se. More as a sort of modern-day court jester. He’s like a character that’s jumped out of Brant’s Das Narrenschiff, a beautiful, bat-eared clown in these increasingly feudalistic times.
@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:
ALB sucks as a bench option
Gets a bench spot
Make it make sense....
Sack the clown.
I not surprised ALB on bench, I not sure they want to risk having to run either Proctor or LF at 12, mainly for defensive reasons?
Going to be interesting,
Dunno but I do suspect this is a scalp England really want and will be primed , and my concerns are not so much with what they are going to bring , but more what we bring in return.
We got away with patchy performances against Ireland and Scotland where we were good in bursts and poor at other times , I suspect we will need something closer to an 80 minute performance this week.
Bear in mind this is a Borthwick team. If we can get on top, I can't see they will have the belief they have the tools to work their way back. If they get on top, I wouldn't count against us coming back. Basically we're lucky he's coached less resolve into them than Razor has into the ABs.
@Darren said in England Vs All Blacks:
On form S Barrett is a world class lock, but we haven't seen it for awhile. I'm ok with him playing, but if doesn't perform, then it has to be time to look at other options, as the other locks are looking better than him now.
ALB is a bit of a joke, my memories of now are coming on and getting carded, I understand we need coverage at 12, but there has to be a better solution. If he comes on, tries too hard and gives away a card again then he has to go.
I would keep developing LF at 13, he is the only 13 in recent memory to look threatening. Line breaks at 13 have been very few and far between. Procter was the form Super player at 13, but it has not translated to test for some reason.
Otherwise I think its about the team we all expected.
Razor just never seems to pick based on any reliable formula as Proctor in for LF shows.. LF should have started there so that him and Tupaea can continue to develop that combination. He had flaws at 13 but was more good than bad there and he was definitely effective in attack.
For certain players form is a complete irrelevance, they will start if fit. Then, he will pick players for key roles who haven't been in a matchday 23 (or haven't started) for a wee while. It all seems a bit haphazard.
The idea that he is personally committed to developing 4 players per position is total BS because he tends not to alter his team much unless there have been injuries. The depth is developed as a byproduct of being forced to pick players to replace injured ones, not because he is proactive in switching it up.
Forwards are okay.
Less happy about Proctor and ALb.
It's going to piss it down with rain and then some in London tomorrow and through to Saturday.
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
Like it, but bollocks to 10/15/22.
Hilarious to hear Rieko described as dynamic though.
…..I meant dynamic compared to ‘running in treacle’ ALB
@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:
Last November
What happened to Tele'a?
That's the 'X Factor' you're missing. His finish for his second try was easily as impressive as DMac's last weekend. He beat three defenders who were in position to tackle him not lunging for him.
And how easy was Jordan's untouched run-in when BB attacks the line keeping the defence guessing?
He signed for a japenese club so they decided not to select him.
Unfortunately BB now either kicks poorly or shovels it along, so if he gets the ball then defence know just to rush up on 12
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
Like it, but bollocks to 10/15/22.
Hilarious to hear Rieko described as dynamic though.
…..I meant dynamic compared to ‘running in treacle’ ALB
True, gotta love the amount of attacking plays Rieko has been a feature in Vs ALB. What I'd give.