England v All Blacks

@Darren said in England Vs All Blacks:

On form S Barrett is a world class lock, but we haven't seen it for awhile. I'm ok with him playing, but if doesn't perform, then it has to be time to look at other options, as the other locks are looking better than him now.
ALB is a bit of a joke, my memories of now are coming on and getting carded, I understand we need coverage at 12, but there has to be a better solution. If he comes on, tries too hard and gives away a card again then he has to go.
I would keep developing LF at 13, he is the only 13 in recent memory to look threatening. Line breaks at 13 have been very few and far between. Procter was the form Super player at 13, but it has not translated to test for some reason.
Otherwise I think its about the team we all expected.

Razor just never seems to pick based on any reliable formula as Proctor in for LF shows.. LF should have started there so that him and Tupaea can continue to develop that combination. He had flaws at 13 but was more good than bad there and he was definitely effective in attack.

For certain players form is a complete irrelevance, they will start if fit. Then, he will pick players for key roles who haven't been in a matchday 23 (or haven't started) for a wee while. It all seems a bit haphazard.

The idea that he is personally committed to developing 4 players per position is total BS because he tends not to alter his team much unless there have been injuries. The depth is developed as a byproduct of being forced to pick players to replace injured ones, not because he is proactive in switching it up.

Forwards are okay.

Less happy about Proctor and ALb.

It's going to piss it down with rain and then some in London tomorrow and through to Saturday.

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Like it, but bollocks to 10/15/22.

Hilarious to hear Rieko described as dynamic though.

…..I meant dynamic compared to ‘running in treacle’ ALB

@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:

Last November

View embedded content

What happened to Tele'a?

That's the 'X Factor' you're missing. His finish for his second try was easily as impressive as DMac's last weekend. He beat three defenders who were in position to tackle him not lunging for him.

And how easy was Jordan's untouched run-in when BB attacks the line keeping the defence guessing?

He signed for a japenese club so they decided not to select him.

Unfortunately BB now either kicks poorly or shovels it along, so if he gets the ball then defence know just to rush up on 12

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Like it, but bollocks to 10/15/22.

Hilarious to hear Rieko described as dynamic though.

…..I meant dynamic compared to ‘running in treacle’ ALB

True, gotta love the amount of attacking plays Rieko has been a feature in Vs ALB. What I'd give.

Absolutely golden opportunity for England to kick us in the nuts. Let's see if they take it.

@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:

This seems to chime with your analysis:

Check out Penaud's kick chase!

Some interesting points in there. I don’t disagree with their take that Penaud is a somewhat lazy chaser but I do disagree with their claim that Le Garrec’s box-kicking was on point. Multiple of his box kicks were quite deep inside the Bok 22; not even Kolbe would’ve gotten there in time. Bielle-Biarrey, who puts in a lot more effort, wasn’t able to reach multiple Le Garrec kicks either.

Also, their argument that Penaud’s lazy chase in the 2nd half – “3 steps worth of effort changed the game” – is not very convincing, as I felt that South Africa pretty much battered the French throughout that game. If it weren’t for that red card, I think you’re looking at a Wellington-type 2nd half for France.

Their point about a changed French kicking game, and how it compounded certain errors in areas like defensive kick receipt, is well made though.

The Tupaea-Proctor midfield combo has played well together in the past.

England will be aiming to bully us up front (see the SA in Wellington example), so it is the forwards that will need to perform. The ABs can set the tone in the first scrum.

Storm Claudia is coming. It she strong enough to blow Aura away?

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Like it, but bollocks to 10/15/22.

Hilarious to hear Rieko described as dynamic though.

…..I meant dynamic compared to ‘running in treacle’ ALB

True, gotta love the amount of attacking plays Rieko has been a feature in Vs ALB. What I'd give.

When our starting wingers collide catching a high ball ( having practiced too much midweek ) and go off injured in the first minute and ALB plays the entire test on the wing you’ll be screaming for some Reeks

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

pick us in the nuts

They haven't selected any saffas, but I will now be glued to the game.

England v New Zealand
Referee: Andrea Piardi (Ita)
ARs: Luc Ramos (Fra) & Gianluca Gnecchi (Ita)
TMO: Marius van der Westhuizen (SA)
FPRO: Mike Adamson (Sco)
Could be a lottery with this group running the cutter

@Bovidae said in England Vs All Blacks:

The Tupaea-Proctor midfield combo has played well together in the past.

England will be aiming to bully us up front (see the SA in Wellington example), so it is the forwards that will need to perform. The ABs can set the tone in the first scrum.

When was that?

@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:

@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Mauss I should have clocked that from the Gary Stevenson reference!

I like him. Not so much as an economist per se. More as a sort of modern-day court jester. He’s like a character that’s jumped out of Brant’s Das Narrenschiff, a beautiful, bat-eared clown in these increasingly feudalistic times.

Some of his economics is excruciatingly misguided. But he certainly has found an audience for his performances.

@pakman A few years ago, but the Māori v Moana Pasifika in Hamilton. Both are much more experienced now.

They have quite classic balance as a combo.

@Steven-Harris said in England Vs All Blacks:

England v New Zealand
Referee: Andrea Piardi (Ita)
ARs: Luc Ramos (Fra) & Gianluca Gnecchi (Ita)
TMO: Marius van der Westhuizen (SA)
FPRO: Mike Adamson (Sco)
Could be a lottery with this group running the cutter

I guess at least it's not an even more incompetent equality hire?

@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:

@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Mauss I should have clocked that from the Gary Stevenson reference!

I like him. Not so much as an economist per se. More as a sort of modern-day court jester. He’s like a character that’s jumped out of Brant’s Das Narrenschiff, a beautiful, bat-eared clown in these increasingly feudalistic times.

A man from 'Atlantis'?

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Bear in mind this is a Borthwick team. If we can get on top, I can't see they will have the belief they have the tools to work their way back. If they get on top, I wouldn't count against us coming back. Basically we're lucky he's coached less resolve into them than Razor has into the ABs.

ok fair enough , i havent seen that much of the NH sides admittedly ,watch all our games and bits and pieces of the rest , and am probably buying into the hype with their run of wins and being told its the toughest game pf the tour

@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Bear in mind this is a Borthwick team. If we can get on top, I can't see they will have the belief they have the tools to work their way back. If they get on top, I wouldn't count against us coming back. Basically we're lucky he's coached less resolve into them than Razor has into the ABs.

ok fair enough , i havent seen that much of the NH sides admittedly ,watch all our games and bits and pieces of the rest , and am probably buying into the hype with their run of wins and being told its the toughest game pf the tour

Borthwick is a NZ national treasure at the moment.

@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:

Going to be interesting,

Dunno but I do suspect this is a scalp England really want and will be primed , and my concerns are not so much with what they are going to bring , but more what we bring in return.

We got away with patchy performances against Ireland Australia and Scotland Fiji where we were good in bursts and poor at other times , I suspect we will need something closer to an 80 minute performance this week.

We're the same mate.

If the All Blacks win this one, this won't be thanks to their starting XV but rather to some of their players on the bench (Williams, Sami T, Tosi, Sititi, DMac).What I fear is the discipline, esp. ALB's.

@Bovidae said in England Vs All Blacks:

The Tupaea-Proctor midfield combo has played well together in the past.

England will be aiming to bully us up front (see the SA in Wellington example), so it is the forwards that will need to perform. The ABs can set the tone in the first scrum.

Our forwards are way stronger than 3 years ago, a much tougher proposition and the scrum is one of the strongest for years.

Bring it on

ALB is on the bench because he can cover 12 and 13 with wing at a pinch. He had that over Ioane. Should consider himself lucky.

LF going to the wing and Proctor coming in to 13 also tells you a lot about how they now feel about Sevu Reece.

@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:

ALB is on the bench because he can cover 12 and 13 with wing at a pinch. He had that over Ioane. Should consider himself lucky.

LF going to the wing and Proctor coming in to 13 also tells you a lot about how they now feel about Sevu Reece.

Massive, massive pinch.

@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.

@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.

Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.

ALB covers zero metres, missed tackles and yellow cards. Triple threat.

Bring it on

Will the Fern melt down if ALB goes well?!

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

ALB covers zero metres, missed tackles and yellow cards. Triple threat.

Bring it on

He misses yellow cards?

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bovidae said in England Vs All Blacks:

The Tupaea-Proctor midfield combo has played well together in the past.

England will be aiming to bully us up front (see the SA in Wellington example), so it is the forwards that will need to perform. The ABs can set the tone in the first scrum.

Our forwards are way stronger than 3 years ago and a much tougher proposition and the scrum is one of the strongest for years.

Bring it on

Whilst I don't know enough about the relative merits of the NZ pack circa 2022 and now, what I can say is that we do not have the pack that can really bully others. That has become something of a tired cliche really. Yeah we have probably two very good back rows available but we're lacking in depth at second row AND have no real enforcer, plus neither of our front rows put the fear of God into the opposition although both are more than competent.

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.

Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.

Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team

@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.

Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.

Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team

You certainly wouldn't see Rassie wasting a spot with the likes of ALB.

@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:

It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.

Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!

That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.

Anyways, speaking of unpaid labour and the exploitation of the working class, this whole high ball-discussion reminds me of a recent Gary’s Economics-video where he’s talking about the rising housing prices. He makes the point that everyone thinks their specific city has a housing crisis while, in reality, it’s a global issue, necessitated by the growing inequality between the ultrarich and the working poor. [Just in case I happened to have piqued someone’s interest, this is the video I’m referring to: youtube.co/watch?v=BTlUyS-T-_4]

I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.

100% on the money. Listening to Irish/Aussie/English specific podcasts and they are ALL bemoaning that their team can't deal with high ball effectively. It’s not just us. As you point out Steward bombed multiple chances in the Aussie game. I caught an interviewe by the BBC rugby podcast with him and he pointed to the escort rule having a big impact on him. He said the coaching staff are emphasising the positioning of other players around the point of the catch to pick up on the scraps, go for a turnover or kick it again to a backfield out of alignment.

With the way game is going (if in doubt - boxkick it), I think this area is getting to be one of the core elements of the game on par with scrum/breakdown etc.

We had this to a lesser degree in 2009 with the ELVs which prompted teams to want to play without the ball. Henry/Hansen realised this after the 2009 disaster and started picking fullbacks on the wing or players with decent highball skills like Dagg, Jane or Kahui.

It is a positive that they are working on it - see Jordie moving to the back to deal with the odd one but it will be tested to the nth degree with the England gameplan.

@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:

ALB is on the bench because he can cover 12 and 13 with wing at a pinch. He had that over Ioane. Should consider himself lucky.

LF going to the wing and Proctor coming in to 13 also tells you a lot about how they now feel about Sevu Reece.

Anybody could cover wing as well as Lienert-Brown and if there's (for the third time this year) an early injury to one of the wings, Jordan will probably make the shift with McKenzie at fullback. It's covering second-five and no other reason Lienert-Brown is on the bench. If the game's close and there aren't any injuries, he'll get Cortez Ratima game time. I doubt we'll see him again after this year unless there are numerous injuries. He, Ioane and Reece will be having their farewell match against Wales.

@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.

Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.

Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team

I thought that was De Groot

@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:

ALB is on the bench because he can cover 12

So can Proctor and Leicester.

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.

Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.

Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team

You certainly wouldn't see Rassie wasting a spot with the likes of ALB.

Absolute truth.

@JA said in England Vs All Blacks:

With the way game is going (if in doubt - boxkick it), I think this area is getting to be one of the core elements of the game on par with scrum/breakdown etc.

That’s funny that you say this because I’ve started thinking about the kick-chase as the back equivalent of the lineout. Like the lineout, you have guys who are excellent on their own ball and then you have those who excel in defensive disruption.

It’s actually quite rare – again, like the lineout – that you have players who truly excel in both attacking and defensive facets of the ‘set piece’, because the dynamics, game sense and skillset are so distinct from each other.

I also think coaches are increasingly approaching it as a form of set piece, because a lot of strike moves have incorporated the box kick as a starting premise for the strike, similar to a lineout attack.

@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:

Will the Fern melt down if ALB goes well?!

I'd be stoked. He's better than people think - like Rieko it's easy to pile on.

That said, I don't think I'd be picking him at the moment...