England v All Blacks

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

Biggest match of the tour. I think one Beauden John Barrett is due…..

The last 10 tests
2024 - W by 2 points (A)
2024 - W by 7 points (H)
2024 - W by 1 point (H)
2022 - Draw (A)
2019 - L by 12 points (RWC)
2018 - W by 1 point (A)
2014 - W by 3 points (A)
2014 - W by 23 points (H)
2014 - W by 1 point (H)
2014 - W by 5 points (H)

I think we used to lose to England once a decade with regularity - I'm pretty sure we lost in 1983, 1993, 2003 and December 2012. Not sure we lost in between.

Losing in 2019 is an abomination - but, hopefully we can restore the pattern by not losing to them this decade.

Only real question mark for me is what they do at left wing and centre. And the bench loose forward. Most likely IMO....

De Groot, Taylor, Newell, Holland, Barrett (if fit), Sititi, Savea, Lakai, Roigard, Beauden, Fainga'anuku, Tupaea, Proctor, Carter, Jordan

Williams, Samisoni, Tosi, Lord, probably Kirifi, but maybe Parker, Ratima, Dmac, Ioane

@Chris-B

1973, 1983, 1993, 2002, 2003, 2012 and 2019 in more recent history. Plus of course Prince Obolenski's match in 1936 - see, we were poaching even back then.

Kirifi is not big enough for a game like this. Parker is too slow against the likes of Earl, Pepper and Pollock. Finau's workrate is not good enough and tends to disappear completely at times. I would bring someone from the ABs XV who has size, genuine speed and good workrate (Papali'i, Flanders or Howden).

I think Lakai has been really solid since coming in at eight - but I pose this. Has he been any better than Lio-Willie was at the start of the year, and given size is not an issue, should CLW be in the squad?

@cgrant said in England Vs All Blacks:

Kirifi is not big enough for a game like this. Parker is too slow against the likes of Earl, Pepper and Pollock. Finau's workrate is not good enough and tends to disappear completely at times. I would bring someone from the ABs XV who has size, genuine speed and good workrate (Papali'i, Flanders or Howden).

All three are smaller than Savea, Lakai and Sititi...

Where are all the doom mongers pre Scotland that insisted the heights of Savea, Lakai and Sititi was a major issue. The issues we had were all about lack of composure, handling errors and loss of focus.
Savea, Lakai and Sititi... will be fine against England. All three have X factor and we saw that on Saturday.

We need to focus on box kick defence.

If you think about some of the props, locks and loosies we haven't had over the past 5 years, at the moment everyday is a good day.

genuinely don't know where England stand at the moment, we have some v strong positions and some decidedly average ones, our style of play definitely isn't established and picking horses for courses and then playing the same way anyway seems like a fools exercise.

I worry about the lack of grunt in our second row without George Martin around, I worry about our lack of a proper full back, I worry about the inconsistency of our front row selections, I think we have a back row full of talent, none of whom are a natural 8.

If i were to do the same with the All Blacks, I suspect I'd find similar lack of certainty about the best options and best style of play. Who knows what might happen on Saturday, could be one big cripple fight or a game of rugby may break out.

I'd roll out the same team as last week. Have to replace Clarke with RI
I think this game is too important to be making any changes.
I would definitely replace Kirifi with Parker or Finau, we have coverage at 7 already, we need coverage for 6.
Leave 12 and 13 alone, we finally have some punch and offloading, it is worth the defensive risk. I don't think they are that bad defensively anyway.
I see the bookies have England slight favourites, which is a fair call.

Chessum and Freeman a doubt for Saturday. Foot injury and hamstring respectively. Both are pretty much nailed on starters so quite a loss, although I would counter that with the fact that Alex Coles really stepped up last week and we should have Roebuck back as well.

Full back is the one area where I feel Borthwick has yet to make up his mind. M Smith will be chasing and probably dropping high balls all over the place as NZ will target him. Steward is unlikely to have another howler under the high ball as he did v Aus, but is ponderous in defence and not a lot quicker in attack. I'm guessing Borthwick will roll the dice and play Daly there.

Robertson did a press conference about an hour ago in London.

Nothing particularly interesting. The ABs are staying at the Lemsbury in Teddington rather than in the centre of Town. Scott Barrett should be available for selection this Saturday. Caleb Clarke is out but will be back for the Wales came. Catching the high ball will be a big focus of training this week. He talks in glowing terms at the end about Cam Roigard and Fabian Holland. Biggest surprise for me was 48 hours later he hasn't sat down to watch the whole of England - Fiji.

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

Robertson did a press conference about an hour ago in London.

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Nothing particularly interesting. The ABs are staying at the Lemsbury in Teddington rather than in the centre of Town. Scott Barrett should be available for selection this Saturday. Caleb Clarke is out but will be back for the Wales came. Catching the high ball will be a big focus of training this week. He talks in glowing terms at the end about Cam Roigard and Fabian Holland. Biggest surprise for me was 48 hours later he hasn't sat down to watch the whole of England - Fiji.

You don’t have to watch the full game of that match to see the pattern England were running in attack and how their defence was set up.

@Mr-Fish said in England Vs All Blacks:

@cgrant said in England Vs All Blacks:

Kirifi is not big enough for a game like this. Parker is too slow against the likes of Earl, Pepper and Pollock. Finau's workrate is not good enough and tends to disappear completely at times. I would bring someone from the ABs XV who has size, genuine speed and good workrate (Papali'i, Flanders or Howden).

All three are smaller than Savea, Lakai and Sititi...

But bigger than Kirifi.

@ACT-Crusader He said he'd seen clips not the whole match. But it was obvious from his comments that he's very aware of England's recent pattern and style.

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

Robertson did a press conference about an hour ago in London.

View embedded content

Nothing particularly interesting. The ABs are staying at the Lemsbury in Teddington rather than in the centre of Town. Scott Barrett should be available for selection this Saturday. Caleb Clarke is out but will be back for the Wales came. Catching the high ball will be a big focus of training this week. He talks in glowing terms at the end about Cam Roigard and Fabian Holland. Biggest surprise for me was 48 hours later he hasn't sat down to watch the whole of England - Fiji.

You don’t have to watch the full game of that match to see the pattern England were running in attack and how their defence was set up.

See I reckon you kinda do need to watch it - if it's your job to and you're playing them in a few days.

Both Ted and Shag used to say people thought Friday and Saturday were their busy days, nope it was Sunday. Watch the whole of their performance prepare clips for review. Watch the whole of the opposition performance. Then plan the whole week around what they could see.

@BerniesCorner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Where are all the doom mongers pre Scotland that insisted the heights of Savea, Lakai and Sititi was a major issue. The issues we had were all about lack of composure, handling errors and loss of focus.
Savea, Lakai and Sititi... will be fine against England. All three have X factor and we saw that on Saturday.

For me at least: I thought that it wouldn't matter vs Scotland, we had 2 big locks and Scotland didn't have big loosies. However, if we want to develop a settled trio to compete with South Africa, then we need at least one of our loosies to be a first rate lineout option to match PSDT - so we effectively wasted an opportunity to get to where we need to be.

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ACT-Crusader He said he'd seen clips not the whole match. But it was obvious from his comments that he's very aware of England's recent pattern and style.

And that’s it. No need to watch every lineout if there are three main patterns they run. Not every scrum reset needs to be watched or penalty kick etc. There’s no doubt someone within the massive group of hanger ons that cut up all of those clips to show how they play and their overall philosophy.

@ACT-Crusader plus the software they have access to enables them to watch every lineout if they choose, look for patterns, then watch every ruck, how they respond in what part of the field.

Watching games in thier entirety would be rare these days I expect.

@taniwharugby said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ACT-Crusader plus the software they have access to enables them to watch every lineout if they choose, look for patterns, then watch every ruck, how they respond in what part of the field.

Watching games in thier entirety would be rare these days I expect.

I'd really hope that isn't the case. The game has ebb and flow and every contest and every individual action by an opponent takes part within a context that matters.

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Frank said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Canes4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

My Backline for England: 9. Roigard 10. DMac 11. LF 12. Tupaea 13. Proctor 14. Jordan 15. Love

Carter has been a bit average the last two tests so might be worthwhile giving him a spell. Beaudy to covere 10 and 15 from the bench where I think he's the most impactful these days.

Gotta get Proctor in somehow eh.

Yeah any excuse to shoehorn him in.

He'll get a run vs Wales if he's lucky. No chance in a huge game like this.

England's midfield is pretty strong - esp. Ollie Laurence. Can see a QT/Reiko midfield for experience or maybe QT/Big Lester with Reiko o the bench if it goes tits-up

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@BerniesCorner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Where are all the doom mongers pre Scotland that insisted the heights of Savea, Lakai and Sititi was a major issue. The issues we had were all about lack of composure, handling errors and loss of focus.
Savea, Lakai and Sititi... will be fine against England. All three have X factor and we saw that on Saturday.

For me at least: I thought that it wouldn't matter vs Scotland, we had 2 big locks and Scotland didn't have big loosies. However, if we want to develop a settled trio to compete with South Africa, then we need at least one of our loosies to be a first rate lineout option to match PSDT - so we effectively wasted an opportunity to get to where we need to be.

I’ve got a feeling after exploring different options this year , they might return to tupou at 6 next year when he’s available.

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@BerniesCorner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Where are all the doom mongers pre Scotland that insisted the heights of Savea, Lakai and Sititi was a major issue. The issues we had were all about lack of composure, handling errors and loss of focus.
Savea, Lakai and Sititi... will be fine against England. All three have X factor and we saw that on Saturday.

For me at least: I thought that it wouldn't matter vs Scotland, we had 2 big locks and Scotland didn't have big loosies. However, if we want to develop a settled trio to compete with South Africa, then we need at least one of our loosies to be a first rate lineout option to match PSDT - so we effectively wasted an opportunity to get to where we need to be.

Dempsey is big......well, he certainly plays big at any rate.

@reprobate I expect they possibly do watch everything, but maybe not start to finish as a fan might.

But out of sync, I dunno, I'm just speculating, especially when I the software I saw was about 7 or 8 years ago, expect t has evolved considerably since then.

@kiwiinmelb I don't mind Tupou at 6, given that Holland, Barrett, Tuipolotu, Lord, Darry is a pretty solid collection of locks.
But for me I think if you pick him there, and you pick Savea, then your other loose forward needs to be a Blackadder - simply to get the number of involvements ruck and tackle up to where they need to be.
And I don't think they'll do that, as EB and DP are both on the outer, so we're likely to be out of whack again.

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@BerniesCorner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Where are all the doom mongers pre Scotland that insisted the heights of Savea, Lakai and Sititi was a major issue. The issues we had were all about lack of composure, handling errors and loss of focus.
Savea, Lakai and Sititi... will be fine against England. All three have X factor and we saw that on Saturday.

For me at least: I thought that it wouldn't matter vs Scotland, we had 2 big locks and Scotland didn't have big loosies. However, if we want to develop a settled trio to compete with South Africa, then we need at least one of our loosies to be a first rate lineout option to match PSDT - so we effectively wasted an opportunity to get to where we need to be.

Dempsey is big......well, he certainly plays big at any rate.

He plays big in tackles and carries, not really a lineout forward though.

@taniwharugby said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate I expect they possibly do watch everything, but maybe not start to finish as a fan might.

But out of sync, I dunno, I'm just speculating, especially when I the software I saw was about 7 or 8 years ago, expect t has evolved considerably since then.

Yeah, I'm just thinking that any insights you're getting into what patterns a team runs, what lineout they call etc is influenced by things like player fatigue in the moment e.g. what has been happening in the game for the few minutes prior etc. Then there's the way teams react to events, e.g. cards etc

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@taniwharugby said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ACT-Crusader plus the software they have access to enables them to watch every lineout if they choose, look for patterns, then watch every ruck, how they respond in what part of the field.

Watching games in thier entirety would be rare these days I expect.

I'd really hope that isn't the case. The game has ebb and flow and every contest and every individual action by an opponent takes part within a context that matters.

Yeah, to be honest, I find when I watch highlights (even those 20 minutes long ones) I don't get much out of it. In fact I'd go as far as saying I have to see the match 2-3 times before I feel like I really have a very solid understanding of how the game played out.

Id actually love to know how much rugby professional.coaches watch in general. I would think aside from their upcoming opponents it would behoove them to watch at least 3-4 other matches a week just to see how teams are playing and get an idea of maybe upcoming opponents a month ahead of time. By that I'm talking about head coach not just some underling who is tasked with editing clips and being the tech whiz.

@reprobate I mean coaches sit there often looking at thier laptops, I expect with live data that we dont have access to as well.

Too many locks, not enough big loosies

@Catogrande Freeman will be a loss if he’s unavailable. Would Cheesman start? Don’t think he’s in your top 2 locks.

Vaa'i was defensively poor at blindside. Both from a workrate point of view, positioning and accuracy. Also I dont think hes quick enough off the mark. That said I wouldn't be surprised if they went back to him

Even if Scooter is back to near full fitness, why would you start him? Holland, Darry and Lord haven't let anyone down and seem eager for work

@canefan of course they'll start him, probably with Holland and Lord dropping to bench.

@taniwharugby said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan of course they'll start him, probably with Holland and Lord dropping to bench.

Yup. Nothing like not being match fit, back from injury, and starting in our toughest game on tour. Oh and being a card magnet

@Catogrande 1973 as well - it really was a sequence!

I'd forgotten about 2002, which was the tour that Christian Cullen enjoyed so much. I think Ben Cohen gave us quite a lot of trouble in that game!

my memory is him rag dolling Blair in to touch like he was a child, and that snuffed out our final chance for an improbable win

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

my memory is him rag dolling Blair in to touch like he was a child, and that snuffed out our final chance for an improbable win

Ben Blair. Ugh sigh

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

my memory is him rag dolling Blair in to touch like he was a child, and that snuffed out our final chance for an improbable win

Kinghorn probably thought he was going to do that to McKenzie to be fair