Nations Championship

@ACT-Crusader Didn't watch today's game but watched the previous two games. They have regressed a fair bit since getting rid of Seilala Mapusua as coach. They didn't look all that good under him but they were light years ahead of this Tusi Pisi-coached group.

As a Samoan, it is sad to see how pathetic Samoa and Tonga look today but at the same time it is quite deserved. Corruption and mismanagement has been the over overarching theme since the 90s and will never be fixed. The only difference now is that more countries are playing and while they progress, we regress.

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

@Fale009 said in Nations Championship:

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

Yeah, goes from a bunch of 30 something ex ABs/Wallabies players for the major tournaments, then back down to Auckland Club Rugby/NPC bench players inbetween times.

@sparky

Australian bias on the official site.

@Fale009 said in Nations Championship:

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

Sadly that is the nature of the beast at the moment, and until the NH dominated WR decide to value all levels of international rugby and penalise unions who allow their clubs to engage in restrictive contracts then this will keep happening.

I think Samoa always has to put out the best team possible for the RWC (and those three Maori players and the English overstayer definitely help that) to keep putting pressure on the powers that be.

Both Samoa and Tonga end with two losses. HKC beating Uruguay in the upset.

@Bovidae said in Nations Championship:

Both Samoa and Tonga end with two losses. HKC beating Uruguay in the upset.

As someone with Portuguese ancestry and a distinct hatred of Tonga (only in a sporting sense) I'm very pleased with that result in the minor scheme of things, but it is troubling in the wider scheme.

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Fale009 said in Nations Championship:

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

Sadly that is the nature of the beast at the moment, and until the NH dominated WR decide to value all levels of international rugby and penalise unions who allow their clubs to engage in restrictive contracts then this will keep happening.

I think Samoa always has to put out the best team possible for the RWC (and those three Maori players and the English overstayer definitely help that) to keep putting pressure on the powers that be.

How do you think they would do that? Currently clubs can't prevent players from playing international rugby (during the appropriate windows). There's nothing in their contracts that prevent them from linking up with their international sides, it's by choice they stay with their clubs. Even last year a whole bunch of Pacific players chose to play NPC over PNC.

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Fale009 said in Nations Championship:

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

Sadly that is the nature of the beast at the moment, and until the NH dominated WR decide to value all levels of international rugby and penalise unions who allow their clubs to engage in restrictive contracts then this will keep happening.

I think Samoa always has to put out the best team possible for the RWC (and those three Maori players and the English overstayer definitely help that) to keep putting pressure on the powers that be.

How do you think they would do that? Currently clubs can't prevent players from playing international rugby (during the appropriate windows). There's nothing in their contracts that prevent them from linking up with their international sides, it's by choice they stay with their clubs. Even last year a whole bunch of Pacific players chose to play NPC over PNC.

We either try or we don't try. It's not really by choice when the club has all the power, they don't need to specify in their contract a player wont play.

At least have a regulation that all players must be released for test windows and clubs are required to provide reasoning when a player isn't released. Make it harder for clubs to apply pressure on players. Make players retire from test rugby if they don't want to be available for WR sanctioned comps.

I was annoyed that a few players chose NPC last year too.

If we don't want to try then how much do we actually value the pinnacle of our game? We're almost at the point where we're swapping with league, they used to the ones we made fun of for not releasing players for tests etc and not valuing the international game.

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Fale009 said in Nations Championship:

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

Sadly that is the nature of the beast at the moment, and until the NH dominated WR decide to value all levels of international rugby and penalise unions who allow their clubs to engage in restrictive contracts then this will keep happening.

I think Samoa always has to put out the best team possible for the RWC (and those three Maori players and the English overstayer definitely help that) to keep putting pressure on the powers that be.

How do you think they would do that? Currently clubs can't prevent players from playing international rugby (during the appropriate windows). There's nothing in their contracts that prevent them from linking up with their international sides, it's by choice they stay with their clubs. Even last year a whole bunch of Pacific players chose to play NPC over PNC.

We either try or we don't try. It's not really by choice when the club has all the power, they don't need to specify in their contract a player wont play.

At least have a regulation that all players must be released for test windows and clubs are required to provide reasoning when a player isn't released. Make it harder for clubs to apply pressure on players. Make players retire from test rugby if they don't want to be available for WR sanctioned comps.

I was annoyed that a few players chose NPC last year too.

If we don't want to try then how much do we actually value the pinnacle of our game? We're almost at the point where we're swapping with league, they used to the ones we made fun of for not releasing players for tests etc and not valuing the international game.

The explanation would just be that the players preferred to play for their club. If an international team complained that someone was being told they weren't allowed to play then I'm sure there would be an investigation, but that's just never going to happen.

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Fale009 said in Nations Championship:

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

Sadly that is the nature of the beast at the moment, and until the NH dominated WR decide to value all levels of international rugby and penalise unions who allow their clubs to engage in restrictive contracts then this will keep happening.

I think Samoa always has to put out the best team possible for the RWC (and those three Maori players and the English overstayer definitely help that) to keep putting pressure on the powers that be.

How do you think they would do that? Currently clubs can't prevent players from playing international rugby (during the appropriate windows). There's nothing in their contracts that prevent them from linking up with their international sides, it's by choice they stay with their clubs. Even last year a whole bunch of Pacific players chose to play NPC over PNC.

We either try or we don't try. It's not really by choice when the club has all the power, they don't need to specify in their contract a player wont play.

At least have a regulation that all players must be released for test windows and clubs are required to provide reasoning when a player isn't released. Make it harder for clubs to apply pressure on players. Make players retire from test rugby if they don't want to be available for WR sanctioned comps.

I was annoyed that a few players chose NPC last year too.

If we don't want to try then how much do we actually value the pinnacle of our game? We're almost at the point where we're swapping with league, they used to the ones we made fun of for not releasing players for tests etc and not valuing the international game.

The explanation would just be that the players preferred to play for their club. If an international team complained that someone was being told they weren't allowed to play then I'm sure there would be an investigation, but that's just never going to happen.

What clubs are playing now?

I don't think any of the measures I proposed off the top of my head will be foolproof. But, like I said, we either try, or we put our heads in the sand. We're putting our heads in the sand because WR is dominated by the NH and this is disproportionally impacting the smaller SH sides.

I've been quite bolshy against the league will take over the Pacific crowd but watching under strength PI rugby teams run around makes me rethink that point of view.

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Fale009 said in Nations Championship:

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

Sadly that is the nature of the beast at the moment, and until the NH dominated WR decide to value all levels of international rugby and penalise unions who allow their clubs to engage in restrictive contracts then this will keep happening.

I think Samoa always has to put out the best team possible for the RWC (and those three Maori players and the English overstayer definitely help that) to keep putting pressure on the powers that be.

How do you think they would do that? Currently clubs can't prevent players from playing international rugby (during the appropriate windows). There's nothing in their contracts that prevent them from linking up with their international sides, it's by choice they stay with their clubs. Even last year a whole bunch of Pacific players chose to play NPC over PNC.

We either try or we don't try. It's not really by choice when the club has all the power, they don't need to specify in their contract a player wont play.

At least have a regulation that all players must be released for test windows and clubs are required to provide reasoning when a player isn't released. Make it harder for clubs to apply pressure on players. Make players retire from test rugby if they don't want to be available for WR sanctioned comps.

I was annoyed that a few players chose NPC last year too.

If we don't want to try then how much do we actually value the pinnacle of our game? We're almost at the point where we're swapping with league, they used to the ones we made fun of for not releasing players for tests etc and not valuing the international game.

The explanation would just be that the players preferred to play for their club. If an international team complained that someone was being told they weren't allowed to play then I'm sure there would be an investigation, but that's just never going to happen.

What clubs are playing now?

I don't think any of the measures I proposed off the top of my head will be foolproof. But, like I said, we either try, or we put our heads in the sand. We're putting our heads in the sand because WR is dominated by the NH and this is disproportionally impacting the smaller SH sides.

I've been quite bolshy against the league will take over the Pacific crowd but watching under strength PI rugby teams run around makes me rethink that point of view.

No clubs are playing at the moment. No one is stopping the likes of Josh Ioane playing for Samoa - but why would he choose to do so? It's not like Samoa is a particularly well run organisation. Plenty of players have opted not to play at all because they don't like the way Mapusua was treated a couple of years back. They'll turn up for a World Cup because it's a World Cup.

The only way for things to change is if there's a significant salary for international matches.

If I were a Pacific player on the last year of my contract in France, I'd be much better staying with my club even during the international windows to ensure I have the best chance of getting selected for each match so that I in turn have the best chance of securing a contract for the future. It's just the way of the world.

It's different when it's an absolute superstar but if I'm a French club manager then naturally I'm going to prefer players who aren't risking injury playing in matches outside of the club, and that's exactly what agents will be advising their players.

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Fale009 said in Nations Championship:

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

Sadly that is the nature of the beast at the moment, and until the NH dominated WR decide to value all levels of international rugby and penalise unions who allow their clubs to engage in restrictive contracts then this will keep happening.

I think Samoa always has to put out the best team possible for the RWC (and those three Maori players and the English overstayer definitely help that) to keep putting pressure on the powers that be.

How do you think they would do that? Currently clubs can't prevent players from playing international rugby (during the appropriate windows). There's nothing in their contracts that prevent them from linking up with their international sides, it's by choice they stay with their clubs. Even last year a whole bunch of Pacific players chose to play NPC over PNC.

We either try or we don't try. It's not really by choice when the club has all the power, they don't need to specify in their contract a player wont play.

At least have a regulation that all players must be released for test windows and clubs are required to provide reasoning when a player isn't released. Make it harder for clubs to apply pressure on players. Make players retire from test rugby if they don't want to be available for WR sanctioned comps.

I was annoyed that a few players chose NPC last year too.

If we don't want to try then how much do we actually value the pinnacle of our game? We're almost at the point where we're swapping with league, they used to the ones we made fun of for not releasing players for tests etc and not valuing the international game.

The explanation would just be that the players preferred to play for their club. If an international team complained that someone was being told they weren't allowed to play then I'm sure there would be an investigation, but that's just never going to happen.

What clubs are playing now?

I don't think any of the measures I proposed off the top of my head will be foolproof. But, like I said, we either try, or we put our heads in the sand. We're putting our heads in the sand because WR is dominated by the NH and this is disproportionally impacting the smaller SH sides.

I've been quite bolshy against the league will take over the Pacific crowd but watching under strength PI rugby teams run around makes me rethink that point of view.

No clubs are playing at the moment. No one is stopping the likes of Josh Ioane playing for Samoa - but why would he choose to do so? It's not like Samoa is a particularly well run organisation. Plenty of players have opted not to play at all because they don't like the way Mapusua was treated a couple of years back. They'll turn up for a World Cup because it's a World Cup.

The only way for things to change is if there's a significant salary for international matches.

If I were a Pacific player on the last year of my contract in France, I'd be much better staying with my club even during the international windows to ensure I have the best chance of getting selected for each match so that I in turn have the best chance of securing a contract for the future. It's just the way of the world.

It's different when it's an absolute superstar but if I'm a French club manager then naturally I'm going to prefer players who aren't risking injury playing in matches outside of the club, and that's exactly what agents will be advising their players.

See, even you, who has opposed this in multiple posts can propose a solution that could be added to the pile.

But the rest of your post is just "who cares, the clubs have all the power and control".

But, as I have already pointed out NH rugby don't care as long as NH rugby is fine so they're happy with the status quo.

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

I've been quite bolshy against the league will take over the Pacific crowd but watching under strength PI rugby teams run around makes me rethink that point of view.

yep
I have samoa and tonga putting a lot more elite rugby league national team combinations together now than their rugby union NT counterparts
wouldn’t have said that a decade ago

Fiji union still ahead of Fiji league tho
all the PI micro states are league now in my book
but the French PI still union
PNG ultra solid league

the Aus govt announced a grant of $250 mil for the development of PI rugby league a few weeks ago
cant see union matching that in any meaningful way
a lot of that will probably go for facilities, so union will be able to latch onto some of it
and thats all about international politics
so if the union types dont like it . . . well that is just too bad
maybe get the PRC into rugby union!

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia said in Nations Championship:

@Fale009 said in Nations Championship:

@Tim said in Nations Championship:

@Nepia Ioane would be a good pick-up. Might be a few more. Is AJ Lam Samoa qualified?

The guys who said they will play are Akira, Shaun Stevenson and Josh Ioane. I think Manu Tuilagi wants to play too if he is healthy. That is all well and good but this is the same situation every cup. These guys come in at the end of the cycle, play the world cup and then piss off and rarely play again.

Sadly that is the nature of the beast at the moment, and until the NH dominated WR decide to value all levels of international rugby and penalise unions who allow their clubs to engage in restrictive contracts then this will keep happening.

I think Samoa always has to put out the best team possible for the RWC (and those three Maori players and the English overstayer definitely help that) to keep putting pressure on the powers that be.

How do you think they would do that? Currently clubs can't prevent players from playing international rugby (during the appropriate windows). There's nothing in their contracts that prevent them from linking up with their international sides, it's by choice they stay with their clubs. Even last year a whole bunch of Pacific players chose to play NPC over PNC.

We either try or we don't try. It's not really by choice when the club has all the power, they don't need to specify in their contract a player wont play.

At least have a regulation that all players must be released for test windows and clubs are required to provide reasoning when a player isn't released. Make it harder for clubs to apply pressure on players. Make players retire from test rugby if they don't want to be available for WR sanctioned comps.

I was annoyed that a few players chose NPC last year too.

If we don't want to try then how much do we actually value the pinnacle of our game? We're almost at the point where we're swapping with league, they used to the ones we made fun of for not releasing players for tests etc and not valuing the international game.

The explanation would just be that the players preferred to play for their club. If an international team complained that someone was being told they weren't allowed to play then I'm sure there would be an investigation, but that's just never going to happen.

What clubs are playing now?

I don't think any of the measures I proposed off the top of my head will be foolproof. But, like I said, we either try, or we put our heads in the sand. We're putting our heads in the sand because WR is dominated by the NH and this is disproportionally impacting the smaller SH sides.

I've been quite bolshy against the league will take over the Pacific crowd but watching under strength PI rugby teams run around makes me rethink that point of view.

No clubs are playing at the moment. No one is stopping the likes of Josh Ioane playing for Samoa - but why would he choose to do so? It's not like Samoa is a particularly well run organisation. Plenty of players have opted not to play at all because they don't like the way Mapusua was treated a couple of years back. They'll turn up for a World Cup because it's a World Cup.

The only way for things to change is if there's a significant salary for international matches.

If I were a Pacific player on the last year of my contract in France, I'd be much better staying with my club even during the international windows to ensure I have the best chance of getting selected for each match so that I in turn have the best chance of securing a contract for the future. It's just the way of the world.

It's different when it's an absolute superstar but if I'm a French club manager then naturally I'm going to prefer players who aren't risking injury playing in matches outside of the club, and that's exactly what agents will be advising their players.

See, even you, who has opposed this in multiple posts can propose a solution that could be added to the pile.

But the rest of your post is just "who cares, the clubs have all the power and control".

But, as I have already pointed out NH rugby don't care as long as NH rugby is fine so they're happy with the status quo.

The clubs have the power because they pay the bills.

Where's the money to pay players for international appearances supposed to come from? It's not a viable option.

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

How do you think they would do that? Currently clubs can't prevent players from playing international rugby (during the appropriate windows). There's nothing in their contracts that prevent them from linking up with their international sides, it's by choice they stay with their clubs. Even last year a whole bunch of Pacific players chose to play NPC over PNC.

here is how they do it . . .

To me this nations championship (all 24 teams) has very real commercial possibilities
international rugby is global in scope, and already drawing big crowds and attention
there must be some corporate entity out there prepared to buy into a global competition
even now it must be worth several hundreds of millions of dollars
WR/SANZAR/6N need to get together and sell it, and it is sell-able IMO

if a shitty little rugby league comp in the SW pacific can get a $ billion dollar annual casting deal, a global rugby union comp like this, sure as hell can too

With a capital investment of magnitude in international rugby, pro domestic rugby will be forced into second position
This is already the case in the SH, so no big leap for them
and in the NH, it is mostly already the case
The likes of scotland and wales (and ireland to a lesser extent) already survive on their international revenues
only the south of france clubs will really be phased
but if the money is there, the players will follow it
money, not just for the top tier; but flowing down even into the second tier (samoa/tonga)

I have just watched the Romania-Samoa game. Samoa couldn't handle the Romanian lineout drives but led 31-14 after a good start to the 2nd half (at 50 mins). Romania really is an international journeyman team. They have got South Africans, Aussies, a Fijian, Tongan and NZ/Samoan in their team.

@Bovidae said in Nations Championship:

I have just watched the Romania-Samoa game. Samoa couldn't handle the Romanian lineout drives but led 31-14 after a good start to the 2nd half (at 50 mins). Romania really is an international journeyman team. They have got South Africans, Aussies, a Fijian, Tongan and NZ/Samoan in their team.

Its a very embarrassing loss for Samoa from the bits I saw. Obviously it's tough for the Island teams to attract good coaches, but Tusi Pisi is well out of his depth. There have been some horrendous results under his tenure.

@mohikamo said in Nations Championship:

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

How do you think they would do that? Currently clubs can't prevent players from playing international rugby (during the appropriate windows). There's nothing in their contracts that prevent them from linking up with their international sides, it's by choice they stay with their clubs. Even last year a whole bunch of Pacific players chose to play NPC over PNC.

here is how they do it . . .

To me this nations championship (all 24 teams) has very real commercial possibilities
international rugby is global in scope, and already drawing big crowds and attention
there must be some corporate entity out there prepared to buy into a global competition
even now it must be worth several hundreds of millions of dollars
WR/SANZAR/6N need to get together and sell it, and it is sell-able IMO

if a shitty little rugby league comp in the SW pacific can get a $ billion dollar annual casting deal, a global rugby union comp like this, sure as hell can too

With a capital investment of magnitude in international rugby, pro domestic rugby will be forced into second position
This is already the case in the SH, so no big leap for them
and in the NH, it is mostly already the case
The likes of scotland and wales (and ireland to a lesser extent) already survive on their international revenues
only the south of france clubs will really be phased
but if the money is there, the players will follow it
money, not just for the top tier; but flowing down even into the second tier (samoa/tonga)

There's a lot of interest in the Nat Champs, sure. The Nat Cup though?

You don't think they've tried to find the best possible commerical deal for both competitions?

@Mr-Fish said in Nations Championship:

You don't think they've tried to find the best possible commerical deal for both competitions?

I think the Qatar investment fund was very keen for the end of year play-offs.
And their type are likely suspects.
WR/SANZAR/6N knocked them back this time in favor of twickers.
Quite a good move, for obvious non rugby reasons, as it turns out.

But if the NC turns out to be a success, and no logical reason why it shouldn't be; they'll be back, and others too,
putting up even more dosh

Unlike the other football codes; the very big money in rugby union is already in the international game
you'd just be reinforcing that position
IMO the only reason it wouldn't work is if certain interests dont want it to work
which would be so very rugby (union)

it'd be WRs job to make sure the Cup get some trickle down (SANZAR/6N clearly dont give a fuck about that!)
after-all, promotion/relegation has been mooted

Fiji tests averaged over 40,000 in July.

Without knowing the revenue split I imagine that was seriously financially advantageous for Fiji