Helped by the ability of both Astle and Mitchell to bowl a few overs if needed
While I think Astle's batting would translate pretty well to today's game, I reckon his bowling wouldn't. I can't recall seeing any slow bowlers like him going around at the moment. Slow bowlers seem to be spinners nowadays. Even Mitchell is a bit quicker than Astle was.
@Virgil said in Black Caps tour of India:
Helped by the ability of both Astle and Mitchell to bowl a few overs if needed
Yep, and my team actually has specialists ( even though Paddles and Vettori can certainly bat )
No room for part rounders in the final XI but guys who can turn the arm over when needed.
Astle averaged close to 40 as a bowler, and Mitch isn't much better. I don't think opening is as much of a specialist role as it is in tests. I'd drop Astle for Cairns and have Cairns batting 6 with everyone else moving up one (so KW opening - he's been pretty good at it in T20).
I was looking at NZ bowlers ODI averages the other day and Chris Pringle was a remarkably effective ODI bowler. Different eras and all that (defending 2 runs in a final over is surely impossible now) but got to give him an honourable mention.
@Cyclops said in Black Caps tour of India:
Astle averaged close to 40 as a bowler, and Mitch isn't much better. I don't think opening is as much of a specialist role as it is in tests. I'd drop Astle for Cairns and have Cairns batting 6 with everyone else moving up one (so KW opening - he's been pretty good at it in T20).
I was looking at NZ bowlers ODI averages the other day and Chris Pringle was a remarkably effective ODI bowler. Different eras and all that (defending 2 runs in a final over is surely impossible now) but got to give him an honourable mention.
From memory Pringle was an early pioneer of the slower ball. It developed into a weapon for him.
Didn't he get a start after turning up to training as a net bowler? Not on anyone's radar, but he impressed so much they gave him a go (injuries may have helped his cause too)
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps tour of India:
@Cyclops said in Black Caps tour of India:
Astle averaged close to 40 as a bowler, and Mitch isn't much better. I don't think opening is as much of a specialist role as it is in tests. I'd drop Astle for Cairns and have Cairns batting 6 with everyone else moving up one (so KW opening - he's been pretty good at it in T20).
I was looking at NZ bowlers ODI averages the other day and Chris Pringle was a remarkably effective ODI bowler. Different eras and all that (defending 2 runs in a final over is surely impossible now) but got to give him an honourable mention.
From memory Pringle was an early pioneer of the slower ball. It developed into a weapon for him.
Didn't he get a start after turning up to training as a net bowler? Not on anyone's radar, but he impressed so much they gave him a go (injuries may have helped his cause too)
This will live long in the memory. Definitely helped by Bruce Reid being almost Chris Martin standard with the bat.
Pringle despite taking 11/152 in his third test ( with some liberal tampering of the ball apparently ) never really cut it in the longest form but he was terrific in ODIs. On the shortlist for an all time team.
@MN5 said in Black Caps tour of India:
@reprobate said in Black Caps tour of India:
@MN5 said in Black Caps tour of India:
@Virgil said in Black Caps tour of India:
@reprobate said in Black Caps tour of India:
@Virgil said in Black Caps tour of India:
Work is quiet and 99.89% of the fern is focused on some high school All Black drama.....
thats our all time top ODI century scorers to date ( Fleming and Latham also have 8 x 100's)
I'd suggest those 5 pictured would make our all time ODI batting top 5?
Guptill
Astle
Williamson
Taylor
MitchellThats if you're happy to leave out Turner and Crowe
With all due respect to Nathan Astle, he's not even close to those guys. Guptill too.
yeah nah have to hard disagree there.
Had a dig into Astles 100's
14 of them came in wins.As mentioned the game was different in his time.
its not like he couldnt bat at an outrageous pace, still holds the test record for the fastest test double hundred after all.Guptill had his issues, wasnt always consistent but not many ODI openers have an average over 40.00
he's a shoe in to open for me.Yep, biggest one being test Cricket.
But ODIs ? absolutely walks in. Fantastic record.
Crowe vs Astle is a bloody tough one, there's room for both.....but then check Glenn Turners ODI average ESPECIALLY in that era ?!?!?! ( much smaller sample size counts against him )
McCullum keeps and bats seven then Vettori, Hadlee, Bond and Boult. Easy.
Astle and Mitch share 10 overs between them with the ball.
If we're in what-if world, Marty is the better bowler too bro.
whether that's accurate or not ( Astle was very useful ) is neither here nor there, he can share the 10 overs too.
Astle
Guptill
KW
Crowe
Taylor
Mitchell
McCullum
Hadlee
Vettori
Bond
BoultI'm bloody happy with that team ! not sure who I'd have captain, there's a few options.
Matt Henry probably unluckiest to miss out......
should be noted Henry currently has a better strike rate then Bond does
28.75 vs 29.21
Not alot in that of course, Bond had a superior average and a tad more pace
Another guy to mention is Kyle Mills who seems forgotten about
Our 2nd all time wicket taker in ODI's with 240 wickets. 27 average and SR of 34 which is handy.
Very good economy rate of 4.72
@Virgil said in Black Caps tour of India:
@MN5 said in Black Caps tour of India:
@reprobate said in Black Caps tour of India:
@MN5 said in Black Caps tour of India:
@Virgil said in Black Caps tour of India:
@reprobate said in Black Caps tour of India:
@Virgil said in Black Caps tour of India:
Work is quiet and 99.89% of the fern is focused on some high school All Black drama.....
thats our all time top ODI century scorers to date ( Fleming and Latham also have 8 x 100's)
I'd suggest those 5 pictured would make our all time ODI batting top 5?
Guptill
Astle
Williamson
Taylor
MitchellThats if you're happy to leave out Turner and Crowe
With all due respect to Nathan Astle, he's not even close to those guys. Guptill too.
yeah nah have to hard disagree there.
Had a dig into Astles 100's
14 of them came in wins.As mentioned the game was different in his time.
its not like he couldnt bat at an outrageous pace, still holds the test record for the fastest test double hundred after all.Guptill had his issues, wasnt always consistent but not many ODI openers have an average over 40.00
he's a shoe in to open for me.Yep, biggest one being test Cricket.
But ODIs ? absolutely walks in. Fantastic record.
Crowe vs Astle is a bloody tough one, there's room for both.....but then check Glenn Turners ODI average ESPECIALLY in that era ?!?!?! ( much smaller sample size counts against him )
McCullum keeps and bats seven then Vettori, Hadlee, Bond and Boult. Easy.
Astle and Mitch share 10 overs between them with the ball.
If we're in what-if world, Marty is the better bowler too bro.
whether that's accurate or not ( Astle was very useful ) is neither here nor there, he can share the 10 overs too.
Astle
Guptill
KW
Crowe
Taylor
Mitchell
McCullum
Hadlee
Vettori
Bond
BoultI'm bloody happy with that team ! not sure who I'd have captain, there's a few options.
Matt Henry probably unluckiest to miss out......
should be noted Henry currently has a better strike rate then Bond does
28.75 vs 29.21
Not alot in that of course, Bond had a superior average and a tad more paceAnother guy to mention is Kyle Mills who seems forgotten about
Our 2nd all time wicket taker in ODI's with 240 wickets. 27 average and SR of 34 which is handy.
Very good economy rate of 4.72
Yep all excellent points.
Paddles played in the infancy of ODIs but I have no doubt he’d adjust to whatever demands were placed on him.
Automatic selection.
Bonds BMT was outstanding. Didn’t realise quite how close he was to Henry statistically.
Boult gets in based on class and longevity.
Easy to forget Kyle Mills was brilliant too.
Allot was very good, shame he only played 31 games
Stats are top notch, 52 wickets @ 23.21 and SR @ 29.38
interesting fun fact, only 2 Black Caps have a Strike Rate under 25 (at least 20 wickets)
One is currently in the side with 35 wickets
the other took 60 wickets
any guess who they are without cheating?
the 2nd one is a bit surprising, not a front line bowler.
I think Guptill, KW, Taylor, M Crowe, Hadlee and Vettori are certainties.
McCullum is a certainty but can either be a keeper and bat 6 or 7, or an opener. If opening, could make him keep anyway or select Smith as keeper and #9 batter (good SR, would be useful late).
If McCullum is 6 or 7, Astle is probably the next best opener. If McCullum opens, C Cairns could play and bat 6.
Bond and Boult round out a nice 11, but could be tricky deciding who opens the bowling with Hadlee.
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps tour of India:
@Cyclops said in Black Caps tour of India:
Astle averaged close to 40 as a bowler, and Mitch isn't much better. I don't think opening is as much of a specialist role as it is in tests. I'd drop Astle for Cairns and have Cairns batting 6 with everyone else moving up one (so KW opening - he's been pretty good at it in T20).
I was looking at NZ bowlers ODI averages the other day and Chris Pringle was a remarkably effective ODI bowler. Different eras and all that (defending 2 runs in a final over is surely impossible now) but got to give him an honourable mention.
From memory Pringle was an early pioneer of the slower ball. It developed into a weapon for him.
Didn't he get a start after turning up to training as a net bowler? Not on anyone's radar, but he impressed so much they gave him a go (injuries may have helped his cause too)
I believe the story is he turned up at a training session to ask if there were any tickets going and got drafted in because of an injury crisis. I think it was during a tour of England and he was over there playing pro cricket (but not top level county cricket).
@reprobate said in Black Caps tour of India:
Kyle Mills was bloody mediocre. Geoff Allott no mention and far superior.
The fuck ?
Most other Black Caps bowlers must be even worse.
@Godder said in Black Caps tour of India:
I think Guptill, KW, Taylor, M Crowe, Hadlee and Vettori are certainties.
McCullum is a certainty but can either be a keeper and bat 6 or 7, or an opener. If opening, could make him keep anyway or select Smith as keeper and #9 batter (good SR, would be useful late).
If McCullum is 6 or 7, Astle is probably the next best opener. If McCullum opens, C Cairns could play and bat 6.
Bond and Boult round out a nice 11, but could be tricky deciding who opens the bowling with Hadlee.
NZ has a proud history of very good guys who have busted out a match winning innings or bowling spell here and there. Cairns, Harry, Oram, Styris, Elliot.....to more recent guys like Santner, Neesh, Bracewell and Phillips.......but here's the thing. If everyone is available in my mythical team I can't find a spot for Cairns, his overall figures just aren't quite good enough. Assuming McCullum keeps and bats seven I reckon I'd stack the top order with big scorers like Guptill, Astle, KW, Taylor, Crowe and Mitchell ( I believe this bunch speaks for itself with no glaring omissions ) with Astle, Crowe and Mitchell sharing the 10 overs that the specialists don't bowl between them.
This of course assumes that Paddles, Bond and Boult tear through the batting line up and Vettori contains, frustrates and gets wickets too. Two very handy extra batting options here as well.
@Gunner said in Black Caps tour of India:
Guptill
McCullum (wk)
KW
Taylor
Crowe
Mitchell
Cairns
Vettori
Hadlee
Boult
Bond
Ok, now I see it written down we'll go with that. The big improvement in bowling should negate the slight dip in batting.
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of India:
Any NZ ODI team without Astle and Harry in it can fuck right off.
Harry can be the 12th man who conveniently is needed to field for 50 overs
@MN5 said in Black Caps tour of India:
@reprobate said in Black Caps tour of India:
Kyle Mills was bloody mediocre. Geoff Allott no mention and far superior.
The fuck ?
Most other Black Caps bowlers must be even worse.
Ah yep, that's correct.
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of India:
Kyle was the world's number 1 ranked ODI bowler at one point wasn't he?
Yeah I think so. He's still a horrible line and length medium-at-best pacer.
@Gunner said in Black Caps tour of India:
Guptill
McCullum (wk)
KW
Taylor
Crowe
Mitchell
Cairns
Vettori
Hadlee
Boult
Bond
my problem with this team is Vettori is not a good enough bat to be at 8. Cairns isn't really good enough at 7 either, especially with some pretty ordinary bowling figures.
This team is getting a hiding from nearly every other best of side.
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of India:
@Gunner said in Black Caps tour of India:
Guptill
McCullum (wk)
KW
Taylor
Crowe
Mitchell
Cairns
Vettori
Hadlee
Boult
Bondmy problem with this team is Vettori is not a good enough bat to be at 8. Cairns isn't really good enough at 7 either, especially with some pretty ordinary bowling figures.
This team is getting a hiding from nearly every other best of side.
Slot Kyle Mills in there and we'll be alright mate.
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of India:
are you okay mate?
Yeah, I guess. I mean come on Mum, Kyle Mills? Really?
@reprobate said in Black Caps tour of India:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of India:
are you okay mate?
Yeah, I guess. I mean come on Mum, Kyle Mills? Really?
beggars cannot be choosers. The record of NZ ODI bowlers is appalling. I am not sure mentioning our 2nd all time wicket taker, who has one of the better averages for players who have taken 100 wickets is quite the outrage you seem to think it is. Especially when you factor in his peak world ranking.
Would i put him in? No, the top tier is pretty easy to select. But as a guy to talk about on, you know, a sports discussion forum, it's not that egregious.
For a Nation with our World Cup record, it is astounding how average our All Time XI is.
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of India:
@reprobate said in Black Caps tour of India:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of India:
are you okay mate?
Yeah, I guess. I mean come on Mum, Kyle Mills? Really?
beggars cannot be choosers. The record of NZ ODI bowlers is appalling. I am not sure mentioning our 2nd all time wicket taker, who has one of the better averages for players who have taken 100 wickets is quite the outrage you seem to think it is. Especially when you factor in his peak world ranking.
Would i put him in? No, the top tier is pretty easy to select. But as a guy to talk about on, you know, a sports discussion forum, it's not that egregious.For a Nation with our World Cup record, it is astounding how average our All Time XI is.
Oh agree we're largely shit. But he's totally a longevity pick. Chatfield is ahead of him on that list, and Danny Morrison not far behind, neither of whom would get a mention. Pringle, Allott, Henry all quite a bit better in my opinion. You'd also need to take into account that Mills was easily at his most effective opening the bowling - there's no way he can do that ahead of any of our good quicks.
He did a great job for us, and I probably shouldn't be so disrespectful, but in my defence I have long term scarring from our 120kph bowlers.
Allott is in that long line of guys who came in, looked shit hot, got hurt, and faded away. We have had a few "what if" players.
Our XI best players probably make the test and ODI side if we are realistic. What would be a more entertaining side to pick would be the "cult hero" XI.
Dudes like Roger Twose.
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of India:
Our XI best players probably make the test and ODI side if we are realistic. What would be a more entertaining side to pick would be the "cult hero" XI.
Dudes like Roger Twose.
Carl Bulfin and Heath Davis are a shoe in to open the bowling.
@MN5 said in Black Caps tour of India:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of India:
Our XI best players probably make the test and ODI side if we are realistic. What would be a more entertaining side to pick would be the "cult hero" XI.
Dudes like Roger Twose.
Carl Bulfin and Heath Davis are a shoe in to open the bowling.
Jesse Ryder
Cult XI
Greatbatch
Wright
Twose
Ryder
Grant Elliot
Harris
Lance Cairns
Bond
Dipak Patel
Brian McKechnie
Chats
needs work but think its a good start...
edit: no idea who would keep!
@Virgil said in Black Caps tour of India:
Cult XI
Greatbatch
WrightLatham, R
TwoseBlain
Ryder
Grant Elliot
Harris
Lance Cairns
BondLarsen
Dipak Patel
Brian McKechnie
Chatsneeds work but think its a good start...
You need a keeper, Tony Blain bleached his hair. He'll do.
Some fine and extremely worthy selections from the 92 era in there though.
Shane Bond was far too world class for a team like this, he's no chance.