Bok scrum

@DaGrubster said in Bok scrum:

@OomPB said in Bok scrum:

Rassie is spoiled for choice. All the SA franchises have strong scrums.

The bok scrum went into overdrive last year. It improved and dominated when it was already the best scrum.

Any insight into how you think they did this?

Live scrumming sessions as explained in the video. The Stormers have a wealth of fatties. It started with Kitshoff, Brok Harris and Malherbe way back. Brok is the scrum coach. Next year they will have Springboks Malherbe, Wilco Louw, Neethling Fouche, Zachery Porshen and Sazi Sandi as THs, LH Springbok Mchunu, Zim international Matongo, Scotland Oli Kebble, and SA u20 Oliver Reid.

@pakman I think its raw power when Wilco Louw, Thomas Tank settled in the Bok team. There is no stronger THs then them in World Rugby. Both joined NH teams and came back to SA. Tank is enjoying his time with Bath at the moment. Ox is the best, no doubt.

@OomPB Most powerful squatter in test rugby is Andrew Porter (350 kegs), so it's not everything.

@pakman the Springboks destroyed him last year.

The reason the bok scrum is dominant is because they spend more time live scrummaging and working on their technique as a unit than other teams. Its not anything other than hard work.

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

The reason the bok scrum is dominant is because they spend more time live scrummaging and working on their technique as a unit than other teams. Its not anything other than hard work.

Maybe, live scrummaging is of course part of every teams preparation.

Im just curious as to how they went into overdrive last year. The bok scrum was the biggest weapon i have ever seen in a rugby team in 2025. It was very good of course in preceeding years.

Why the big jump last year?

Thats the real question. Maybe it is just outstanding technique allied with increased power. That normally does the trick!

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

The reason the bok scrum is dominant is because they spend more time live scrummaging and working on their technique as a unit than other teams. Its not anything other than hard work.

I agree
It's practise makes perfect
That's a coaching thing
While you dont need a dominant scrum, you must at least have parity at the elite level
otherwise you are fucked
if your scrum is shite, the coach is not prioritising it enough

the main scrum action is now at the training ground
sometimes less than ten in an actual game
so if you have parity, and can secure your own ball, which is what happens, it's kinda been taken out of the game as a factor on match day
although even the best can F one up, and make it a big play

more important is what happens at the 200 hundred plus breakdown plays per game, and what the frontrowers are doing there (or are they there!)

@mohikamo But that's the rub. If one team, in this case the Saffas, has a brutal scrum and half a dozen forwards on the bench - then that sets quite a high bar for parity.
Taking the Irish demo job as an example, they gave up 6 penalties and a card from 12 scrums. I think the average is about 10 total penalties per team conceded per game, and from WR annual report: "Scrums are now often seen not so much as a source of valuable possession but as a source of winning penalties, with almost 50 per cent of scrums currently ending in a sanction."
So your 10 scrums result in a disproportionate number of the game's penalties, and penalties are crucial to winning games - sometimes directly for points, but more often for field position while maintaining possession - either relieving opposition attacking pressure or creating scoring opportunities.

@reprobate yeah massive hate on scrumming for pens from me, a player being penalised for not being as good as your opposition most of the time, beyond getting demo'd at the actual scrum.

Dominate scrum is a big mental thing in rugby. Its show the physical winner which lift the team.

@OomPB doesnt mean you deserve a penalty, and in some cases, PT and YC.

@taniwharugby said in Bok scrum:

@reprobate yeah massive hate on scrumming for pens from me, a player being penalised for not being as good as your opposition most of the time, beyond getting demo'd at the actual scrum.

Yeah, I'm sick of them - the 'just not as good' penalty aspect plus the lottery of ref guessing/mistakes for a major impact on the game. free kicks reduce that impact, and are faster (not just for scrums) so I'd like more of them and less penalties. Fuckin sick of box kicks and lineout mauls too to be honest. When people say 'more tries is great' it's not lineout maul tries they're talking about. Which almost all come from penalties.
It is a bit complicated though, and bound to be unintended consequences. It's a very different game to when fatties had to play 80 minutes and do 20+ scrums. Now the Boks are playing 40 mins and maybe half a dozen scrums each.

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

The reason the bok scrum is dominant is because they spend more time live scrummaging and working on their technique as a unit than other teams. Its not anything other than hard work.

Right. Only hard work.

@taniwharugby said in Bok scrum:

@OomPB doesnt mean you deserve a penalty, and in some cases, PT and YC.

Scrums are the basic art of rugby. It deserve a penalty 100%. If you dont like it, watch and support league.

@nostrildamus said in Bok scrum:

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

The reason the bok scrum is dominant is because they spend more time live scrummaging and working on their technique as a unit than other teams. Its not anything other than hard work.

Right. Only hard work.

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Thats the usual reply.

@DaGrubster said in Bok scrum:

Why the big jump last year?

Fishing

@OomPB said in Bok scrum:

@nostrildamus said in Bok scrum:

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

The reason the bok scrum is dominant is because they spend more time live scrummaging and working on their technique as a unit than other teams. Its not anything other than hard work.

Right. Only hard work.

View embedded content

Thats the usual reply.

Yes! But it's a British newspaper and they never stir, right?!

@OomPB righto.

@OomPB said in Bok scrum:

@taniwharugby said in Bok scrum:

@OomPB doesnt mean you deserve a penalty, and in some cases, PT and YC.

Scrums are the basic art of rugby. It deserve a penalty 100%. If you dont like it, watch and support league.

Rucking is the basic art of rugby. If you don't like it watch league.
Jumping to win lineouts is the basic art of rugby. If you don't like it, watch figure-skating.

@taniwharugby said in Bok scrum:

@reprobate yeah massive hate on scrumming for pens from me, a player being penalised for not being as good as your opposition most of the time, beyond getting demo'd at the actual scrum.

I agree, up until I see someone like Porter not being penalised off the park. And any other prop who sets up with his arse pointing at the sideline.

Stay straight(ish) and go backwards -> lose the ball -> play on. If a team wins possession legally that should be sufficient.

Absolutely, illegal play, ping em, but that isn't how so many are reffed.

Under pressure, loses feet, drops bind, hand on ground to stop from collapsing and getting pinged, and the worst is when the ball is at the back, halfback can play it, but doesn't and they keep it in solely to draw a penalty.

Being penalised anywhere other than the scoreboard in any facet of a game because you are inferior is plain daft.

@reprobate said in Bok scrum:

@taniwharugby said in Bok scrum:

@reprobate yeah massive hate on scrumming for pens from me, a player being penalised for not being as good as your opposition most of the time, beyond getting demo'd at the actual scrum.

Yeah, I'm sick of them - the 'just not as good' penalty aspect plus the lottery of ref guessing/mistakes for a major impact on the game. free kicks reduce that impact, and are faster (not just for scrums) so I'd like more of them and less penalties. Fuckin sick of box kicks and lineout mauls too to be honest. When people say 'more tries is great' it's not lineout maul tries they're talking about. Which almost all come from penalties.
It is a bit complicated though, and bound to be unintended consequences. It's a very different game to when fatties had to play 80 minutes and do 20+ scrums. Now the Boks are playing 40 mins and maybe half a dozen scrums each.

Refs guessing/getting it wrong is a significant factor.

In Boks 2 last year, early in H2 Boks LH goes down on one knee right in front of Angus Gardner, who seems to be thinking about what he's having for tea. Lomax let's him get up and AB scrum unbalanced, pushed back 5m and Kolisi scores.
Thereafter ref gives Boks benefit of doubt if scrums go awry.
Gardner makes the correct call and ABs kick to Boks 22.
Massive game changer.

If he lose the bind, no penalty?

Photo's on old phone, but Wessels had both knees on turf.

@OomPB said in Bok scrum:

Scrums are the basic art of rugby. It deserve a penalty 100%. If you dont like it, watch and support league.

The basic art of rugby is to win possession of the ball.
If you have hooked the ball, anything else after that at scrum time is just bull shit.
Just play the f'n ball.

If scruming is so f'n good why dont they set up a comp, like sevens rugby.
I'll tell you why
because no one wants to watch a whole lot of fat bastards doin latent shit.

Scrumming in sevens is exactly what you want. Thats the competition you want. 15 men rugby is for all shapes and sizes. Your TH fatty must be the first selection in a rugby team. Like a goalie in soccer or wickey in cricket

@reprobate said in Bok scrum:

But that's the rub. If one team, in this case the Saffas, has a brutal scrum and half a dozen forwards on the bench - then that sets quite a high bar for parity.
Taking the Irish demo job as an example, they gave up 6 penalties and a card from 12 scrums. I think the average is about 10 total penalties per team conceded per game, and from WR annual report: "Scrums are now often seen not so much as a source of valuable possession but as a source of winning penalties, with almost 50 per cent of scrums currently ending in a sanction."
So your 10 scrums result in a disproportionate number of the game's penalties, and penalties are crucial to winning games - sometimes directly for points, but more often for field position while maintaining possession - either relieving opposition attacking pressure or creating scoring opportunities.

If you have parity, all that shit goes away.
If I was a modern day HC, my first priority would be the scrum.
Doesn't need to be dominant, but good enough to secure your own feed, and take it out of the game day calculation.
With that done, you can have a game plan
Any HC at the elite level of the game, with a shit scrum, should be exited.

WR is on to it.
The question is . . . is the scrum for winning penalties or winning possession.
The basics of rugby is about the contest for possession.
Looking at it from that perspective, winning penalties by physically forcing someone to make an involuntary error, when you already have possession is a bit of a fucked up philosophy.
I think WR is coming round to that point of view.

Penalties should be awarded when an individual player choses to transgress the rules.
Not for when he had no choice.

If you want to use the scrum to win penalties.
Why F about setting a scrum, just blow an f'n penalty and get on with it!

And that is not even going into the OH&S issues.
There are 6 front rowers in a matchday squad.
That's because the modern scrum has become very serious business (overly serious?)
So, not the time to play at being silly buggers, someone could get badly fucked up.

@OomPB said in Bok scrum:

Scrumming in sevens is exactly what you want. Thats the competition you want. 15 men rugby is for all shapes and sizes. Your TH fatty must be the first selection in a rugby team. Like a goalie in soccer or wickey in cricket

Or the punter in a game of American football.
Just sub them on and off for the scrums.

All shapes of big you mean.

Not too many genuine fatties at the top level of rugby now.
Cos they'll get found out around the rest of the field.
I note Rassie is on to a good work around for that.

As the game now stands, the THP is the most important player.
But that can be changed, with a bit reinterpretation of the rules by the refs.

@taniwharugby said in Bok scrum:

yeah massive hate on scrumming for pens from me, a player being penalised for not being as good as your opposition most of the time, beyond getting demo'd at the actual scrum.

I've seen some referees be a bit more discerning lately.
Only blowing a penalty if they think someone has deliberately transgressed.
But not if they have been forced into error.

@OomPB

Well
That play is 1000% better than any dumb ass push over scrum.

Wilco aint that fat; he's just f'n big.
Tho I doubt whether he's played 80 mins for a very long time, if ever.
In that respect, front rowers get it easy

I don't like the Yellow cards for not being as good as your opposition prop or scrum.

You shouldn't get yellow carded for not being good enough.

The scrum is an integral part of rugby and it should remain as such.

Looking forward to seeing how the AB pack stands up against the bokke scrum this year.

I need @bartman to help me.

@nostrildamus said in Bok scrum:

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

The reason the bok scrum is dominant is because they spend more time live scrummaging and working on their technique as a unit than other teams. Its not anything other than hard work.

Right. Only hard work.

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Absolutely. Are you suggesting bok players are tested less than the ab players? Laughable

@pakman said in Bok scrum:

@OomPB Most powerful squatter in test rugby is Andrew Porter (350 kegs), so it's not everything.

true dat. Porter spends too much time giving the stink eye and not enough time working on his technique. It always makes me laugh when I see him giving someone the stare down

@mohikamo said in Bok scrum:

@reprobate said in Bok scrum:

But that's the rub. If one team, in this case the Saffas, has a brutal scrum and half a dozen forwards on the bench - then that sets quite a high bar for parity.
Taking the Irish demo job as an example, they gave up 6 penalties and a card from 12 scrums. I think the average is about 10 total penalties per team conceded per game, and from WR annual report: "Scrums are now often seen not so much as a source of valuable possession but as a source of winning penalties, with almost 50 per cent of scrums currently ending in a sanction."
So your 10 scrums result in a disproportionate number of the game's penalties, and penalties are crucial to winning games - sometimes directly for points, but more often for field position while maintaining possession - either relieving opposition attacking pressure or creating scoring opportunities.

If you have parity, all that shit goes away.
If I was a modern day HC, my first priority would be the scrum.
Doesn't need to be dominant, but good enough to secure your own feed, and take it out of the game day calculation.
With that done, you can have a game plan
Any HC at the elite level of the game, with a shit scrum, should be exited.

WR is on to it.
The question is . . . is the scrum for winning penalties or winning possession.
The basics of rugby is about the contest for possession.
Looking at it from that perspective, winning penalties by physically forcing someone to make an involuntary error, when you already have possession is a bit of a fucked up philosophy.
I think WR is coming round to that point of view.

Penalties should be awarded when an individual player choses to transgress the rules.
Not for when he had no choice.

If you want to use the scrum to win penalties.
Why F about setting a scrum, just blow an f'n penalty and get on with it!

And that is not even going into the OH&S issues.
There are 6 front rowers in a matchday squad.
That's because the modern scrum has become very serious business (overly serious?)
So, not the time to play at being silly buggers, someone could get badly fucked up.

Yeah look I'm not defending scrum penalties, just saying that right now that is how it is.
The other side is that there used to be 20+ scrums and the fatties playing 80. They had to have a degree of fitness and fatigue was a big factor - you might be huge and strong, but there is a downside to that. WR wanted to reduce the number of scrums - because apparently people don't want to watch that (I disagree with that, they don't have to take so long and are a great attacking platform), so being hugely powerful became less important - as per your initial point - it's a ruck game. But the bench changes meant that the fatties only have to play 40 minutes. So we're back to them being even bigger than before. It's not all shapes and sizes, it's 140kg monsters.
Take the penalties away, and teams will try to get away with playing smaller faster front rowers... but the defensive line becomes tougher to break with less mismatches etc, so there needs to be some sort of a balance or at least thinking it out thoroughly to avoid/mitigate unintended consequences of trying to make the game more open but actually doing the reverse. Which is what the bench changes did - make it safer by having a specialist front row bench, oh wait now they're only playing 40 and are fucking huge and the collisions are more powerful and it's less safe.

Scrums are an odd one, they absolutely are and should remain a key restart point of the game, and for some teams they are a weapon, however as I have said, scrumming for pens is wrong, and plenty of teams seem to do this, rather than using it to restart and play from.

Cant really play for pens at lineout time, but it is the same situation to restart the game with a competition for the ball.

Over the years, the number of scrums has reduced, I expect a by-product is the lineouts must have increased, given the ball in play numbers were not high for a long time too.

It's getting that balance right, rewarding teams for being dominant, but not punishing teams through penalties or cards simply for not being as good, then as above, there seems an element of guesswork at scrum-time on some calls made by refs along with what you'd think is an unconscious bias towards the dominant team in those closer calls.

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

@nostrildamus said in Bok scrum:

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

The reason the bok scrum is dominant is because they spend more time live scrummaging and working on their technique as a unit than other teams. Its not anything other than hard work.

Right. Only hard work.

View embedded content

Absolutely. Are you suggesting bok players are tested less than the ab players? Laughable

No. I am linking to an overseas newspaper article that I did not write, and letting the overly sensitive draw their own feverish conclusions! Laughable indeed!

@nostrildamus said in Bok scrum:

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

@nostrildamus said in Bok scrum:

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

The reason the bok scrum is dominant is because they spend more time live scrummaging and working on their technique as a unit than other teams. Its not anything other than hard work.

Right. Only hard work.

View embedded content

Absolutely. Are you suggesting bok players are tested less than the ab players? Laughable

No. I am linking to an overseas newspaper article that I did not write, and letting the overly sensitive draw their own feverish conclusions! Laughable indeed!

Indeed. For a minute I thought it was a Ben Smith article.

@W32 said in Bok scrum:

Indeed. For a minute I thought it was a Ben Smith article.

Ben Smith's influence on WADA is incredible