@Nepia said in Bulls v Highlanders:

WTF. So I just watched that now - how is that a red? African Monkey was doing his nut about it last night (but I'd missed it on my feed and couldn't be arsed getting up to go watch on TV) so I thought it would be an easy clear red. It looked like a brace for impact after he missed the ball but looked worse due to the slow mo. It only looked worse because the point of contact with the Bulls player was the chin. If he wasn't reaching for the ball it would have been a shoulder on shoulder.

Things are getting stupid.

You are clearly a biased New Zealander

@Nepia said in Bulls v Highlanders:

WTF. So I just watched that now - how is that a red? African Monkey was doing his nut about it last night (but I'd missed it on my feed and couldn't be arsed getting up to go watch on TV) so I thought it would be an easy clear red. It looked like a brace for impact after he missed the ball but looked worse due to the slow mo. It only looked worse because the point of contact with the Bulls player was the chin. If he wasn't reaching for the ball it would have been a shoulder on shoulder.

The contact was probably similar to the last video - A Hurricane on Foley in Super Rugby. World Rugby has redefined the threshold - shoulder to head, even if accidental --> red UNLESS mitigation is there.

Basicaly, they are trying to stop exactly that sort of contact. RIghtly or wrongly - but bad news for Naholo

@Nepia A shoulder to the head is a straight red. It was reckless from Naholo accidental or not and he got what he deserved.

If it was a Bulls player who did it you guys would all be calling for it to be red as well.

I think that Naholo was straight red, no question. I don't care what he thought he was doing, at the last moment he decided to turn his shoulder in. If the Bulls guy had caught it, what was Naholo going to do other than a high tackle, coming in like that?

You can hardly say the ref was biased when he then not only red carded Bulls player, but stopped the likely winning try to do so.

@Chester-Draws see him turning his shoulder is more out of self preservation and bracing for impact rather than anything malice.

As I said above, harsh to get a RC, but unfortunately RC was the only outcome from shoulder to head.

Was it the Welsh tour last year he got carded, similar clumsiness (man in the air)

@African-Monkey said in Bulls v Highlanders:

@Nepia A shoulder to the head is a straight red. It was reckless from Naholo accidental or not and he got what he deserved.

If it was a Bulls player who did it you guys would all be calling for it to be red as well.

I'd really like to think I wouldn't

@booboo said in Bulls v Highlanders:

@African-Monkey said in Bulls v Highlanders:

@Nepia A shoulder to the head is a straight red. It was reckless from Naholo accidental or not and he got what he deserved.

If it was a Bulls player who did it you guys would all be calling for it to be red as well.

I'd really like to think I wouldn't

Yep, me either, as I said earlier I think it's getting stupid.

@African-Monkey I'm not even a Naholo fan, I don't like the way he plays and think he should be playing for Fiji.

@nzzp I think that TR explains the mitigation - clearly Naholo wasn't setting out to to shoulder the Bulls player, he's got his hands out for the ball. If anyone wants to claim that he was setting out to do that they're lying to themselves. Now, if WR, that fountain of wisdom want to deem that accidental clashes meet the threshold of a red card then that's up to them, I'm going to call them idiots for that.

The problem with lowering the threshold was shown later in the game. A Bulls player shouldered a Highlanders player in the head. The Highlanders player was just lying there on the ground. So the sanction for Naholo and the Bulls player was the same, even though one incident was a lot worse.

@hydro11 The suspension might be different though.

@Stargazer said in Bulls v Highlanders:

@hydro11 The suspension might be different though.

That's true. I do think some of the suspensions handed out are way too short. I'm incredibly frustrated by players meeting the red card threshold and then receiving a two week suspension.

@Nepia said in Bulls v Highlanders:
Now, if WR, that fountain of wisdom want to deem that accidental clashes meet the threshold of a red card then that's up to them, I'm going to call them idiots for that.

I think that is what they're saying. We may not like it but like the maul laws, them's the farking laws.

Be bloody careful is the answer. What was normal rugby incidents is now card material. THe effects have been talked about up north, and we've seen it with some 'interesting' kick-chase calls. Hope it doesn't affect the upcoming Lions series, but quite concerned that it will.

Just saw the incident. Looked to me like Naholo was going for the ball, saw the man in front of him and dropped his shoulder to protect himself from the impact. Split second reaction but a reckless one, so I have no issue with the red card.

Second incident was way worse though.

Naholo actually threw his shoulder into the impact, how insane do you have to be to think he was going for the ball? Sure he may have been initially but once the ball was gone he recklessly tucked the arm and threw his shoulder. He doesn't do that, he doesn't get a card. It's pretty fucking simple. But then we can't have a misguided whinge at WR....

@Bones I reckon a guy could trip over his own shoelaces and you'd make a case for a red card.

But to be serious, he was bracing for impact, protecting yourself shouldn't have the same sanction as deliberately kicking someone or lining up an actual high shoulder charge. The line in the sand from 'misguided WR' is too close.

@Nepia well what the fuck were his shoelaces doing in the way? Sounds reckless to me.

Passing off throwing the shoulder into someone's face as "bracing for impact" is pretty neat though. Sam Whitelock probably should've gone with that defence eh.

@Bones said in Bulls v Highlanders:

Passing off throwing the shoulder into someone's face as "bracing for impact" is pretty neat though. Sam Whitelock probably should've gone with that defence eh.

Pretty sure we have covered this before...if you have an inevitable contact, natural instinct is to brace yourself, for the contact, and I agree with Nepia that in that situation, his shoulder is going to minimise impact to himself (aka self preservation)

Sure it will only result in a Red Card, but when instincts often kick in with barely a thought, changing the way you react is tough.

@taniwharugby that may be the case, but isn't so in this instance. Naholo wasn't going to cop any sort of impact of great magnitude. It's being disingenuous to try and pass that off as self preservation.

@Bones will agree to disagree, if I was running into a contact, while I'd try to avoid it (which is when you are as likely to hurt yourself more) if it was coming, I'd ready myself.

As I said, the RC was inevitable, I expect we will see differing punishment form the 2 cards in that game, also reckon there was some amateur theatrics from the Bulls player he impacted too.

@taniwharugby again, that was not at all an act of self preservation. That was a reckless throw of the shoulder.

@Bones oh, right, sorry, I was wrong all along, you have shown me the error of my ways oh great messiah

Given the debate here, I went and watched it.

Assuming I watched the right incident, I can't see how anyone can see that as anything other than a red card.

That was terrible, what a fucking idiotic muppet. I'd go mental if he did that in a black jersey.

Hope I saw the right video

@taniwharugby said in Bulls v Highlanders:

@Bones oh, right, sorry, I was wrong all along, you have shown me the error of my ways oh great messiah

What? Yeah Naholo definitely dodged a bullet there. If he hadn't have run straight at the guy and thrown his shoulder into his face he was in real trouble. He did well to avoid harming himself.

In other news the Canes could've probably beaten the Crusaders by 30 odd points.

@gt12 said in Bulls v Highlanders:

Given the debate here, I went and watched it.

Assuming I watched the right incident, I can't see how anyone can see that as anything other than a red card.

That was terrible, what a fucking idiotic muppet. I'd go mental if he did that in a black jersey.

Have to agree. He runs a line to make impact when he didn't need to. He looks to me to be instigating the impact not bracing himself. One of those little niggle after the ball things that happen all the time but now need to be really careful in case of high impact. Even if he didn't make head contact he would have ended up with a YC for off the ball play IMO.
If you are going to do those nowadays you need to make sure it is a clear body check only and hope the other guy doesn't do a hollywood. Certainly wouldn't try it against an Argie.

@taniwharugby said in Bulls v Highlanders:

also reckon there was some amateur theatrics from the Bulls player he impacted too.

I dunno - he went floppy like you would having copped a shoulder to the chin.

@nzzp the spin...given this was a nothing impact that wouldnt have bothered Naholo....

In case anyone missed it, I agreed it is always a red card with shoulder to head.

hahaha oh shit. That's about as blatant a red card as you will ever see! when i saw the term "bracing for impact" i thought it was one of those ones where someone chipped him, and he turned his shoulder in to an on-coming player.

You don't brace for impact while running through someone! that's a fucking red card every day of the week, and should be a couple of weeks as well. What a fucking muppet.

The second view is very damning - late and unnecessary.

What are you guys talking about? This is down to bad refereeing, poor interpretation and WR making up ridiculous rulings. In 1933 Naholo would've been awarded a try for that.

@Bones assume that is directed at others, I never said it was poor refereeing, poor interpretation or ridiculous ruling.

@taniwharugby nah not you. But people have seemed to intimate this was a ridiculous result of "lowering the threshold". Just like a guy getting sent off for stomping a head would be the result of WR trying to eradicate rucking...

@Bones said in Bulls v Highlanders:

@taniwharugby nah not you. But people have seemed to intimate this was a ridiculous result of "lowering the threshold".

I don't think ridiculous, but I think a year ago that could have been a yellow for reckless contact. Now it's a straight red. THat threshold has changed.

Same way with tip tackles. Pre '05, it was harden up, play on or penalty. Then it went to straight reds to sam warburton in a Cup Semi Final FFS.

@Bones said in Bulls v Highlanders:

In 1933 Naholo would've been awarded a try for that.

It was a bloody try in 1905, and Deans was robbed.

Wait, what are we talking about again?

@nzzp said in Bulls v Highlanders:

Wait, what are we talking about again?

That time the Beaver won the RWC with a belly full of whitebait!

@Tordah said in Bulls v Highlanders:

refereeing performance was very good so far IMO, really let the game flow and narrated the little decisions / non-decisions. A few forward passes or knock-ons maybe wrong, but that's minor to the overall performance

Yeah nah! Those basic things matter, and missing huge forward passes or knock on is the bread and butter of being a good Ref. Its not the refs job to provide entertainment at the cost of the laws of rugby.

Just my view anyway.

That would have been a red card under the old rules. He did it on purpose, tried to look sneaky about it too. Reverse angle shows him lifting his elbow to really put some force into the shot.

Dirty, late, and completely unnecessary.

@mooshld said in Bulls v Highlanders:

Yeah nah! Those basic things matter, and missing huge forward passes or knock on is the bread and butter of being a good Ref. Its not the refs job to provide entertainment at the cost of the laws of rugby.

Just my view anyway.

I agree with your general sentiment, but I think the forward passes are the assistant refs' faults, as they are the ones usually in line with the ball to spot that (unlike the referee, in most cases). I think he was right on both red cards (and often refs use the yellow card to get out of an uncomfortable situation) and generally had a very good game.

Generally, I doubt you'll see a game where the ref team doesn't miss a few forward passes / knock-ons. There's always something to complain in a game this complicated - if you really want to.

@Bones said in Bulls v Highlanders:

@taniwharugby said in Bulls v Highlanders:

@Bones oh, right, sorry, I was wrong all along, you have shown me the error of my ways oh great messiah

In other news the Canes could've probably beaten the Crusaders by 30 odd points.

They fucking could have, and I'll sleep a lot easier tonight with that in mind.

Fairly uncontroversial red card IMO.

Yeah got to agree there is no way that was going for the ball or bracing for impact. 100% stupid, late, clumsy shoulder. Probably didn't mean to hit him in the head but has no one to blame but himself there. IMO that "should" be a yellow but definitely a red with current interpretations.
The extra stupid thing is the Bulls player was focusing on juggling the ball, Naholo could have buried his shoulder in the guys ribs perfectly legally and his team would have got the put in to the scrum.

what is interesting though, is we are on a rugby forum, with rugby fans from all over, but obviously mainly NZ, where most have played rugby for a good many years and we often cant agree how an incident has played out, yet we vent our frustration that one man gets it wrong...is that the fault of the rules or just down to the way the game is played?