@Bones said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Crucial said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@ACT-Crusader said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@rotated said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

This is where the neutral referee & TMO would be ideal.

Nah. The right process and decision was made.

I hate these ones. Smith wasn't trying to tackle anyone, he was chasing the ball as you should. He looks up and sees Havili has taken to the air and is about to collide with him in. You could argue that Havili put himself in danger by jumping toward other players on the ground that couldn't get out of the way with his knees forward and toward their heads.
Havili was just playing the game and so was Smith. By the way things are ruled Smith was meant to anticipate that someone would take a flying leap at his head though which is silly. Rugby is a game played on your feet according to the Laws.

Why would you not anticipate someone jumping for a kick? Been living in the wilderness for the last 15 odd years? That's like letting people off for a high tackle because the other guy is short.

Totally different.
Smith did nothing that you wouldn't expect from a normal player. He wasn't reckless, he didn't create danger. Yes, someone MAY jump, but until they do he is allowed to do what he is doing.
I'm not saying it was a wrong decision. Under the way these happenings are ruled , the decision was correct.
What I don't like is that a player doing nothing wrong is suddenly 'in the wrong' because of another player's actions. Using your high tackle example it is more like a player ducking. A short player is always short. A player in the air isn't always in the air.
Currently if I am standing set under a ball and someone jumps well above me and catches the ball, knees me in the head and then goes tits up and crashes on his shoulders I get red carded. I'm not saying that is exactly what happened here but very similar.
I didn't create the danger, the guy leaping into me did. He took a risk that didn't pay off but I got the blame.

I don't know the answer to the issue though. I don't want to see jumping stopped but a bit of pragmatism needs to be in play. If the video shows that the player jumped after the 'offender' was in a ground position for a catch then the risk is his and the other guy shouldn't cop the blame.

I really don't know how dumb you'd have to be in today's rugby to not have the slightest inkling when chasing a kick that the opposition may, just maybe, go in the air. Yeah shit I bet Smith was surprised, probably never seen a player do that before huh!

@Crucial, a player doing karate kicks in the middle of the field isn't doing anything wrong until he hits another player that's run into him. But once he does, probably not a wise thing to be doing eh? So why not use his brains and anticipate what is going on...

Crotty deservedly named MotM but a few others deserve a mention too : Goodhue was a rock in defense, Tamanivalu was outstanding in the first half when the Crusaders had some possession, Todd was everywhere, and Whitelock did what he usually does. Alalaatoa was also good when he came in. Is he eligible for NZ, Australia or Samoa ?

@Bones said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

I really don't know how dumb you'd have to be in today's rugby to not have the slightest inkling when chasing a kick that the opposition may, just maybe, go in the air. Yeah shit I bet Smith was surprised, probably never seen a player do that before huh!

@Crucial, a player doing karate kicks in the middle of the field isn't doing anything wrong until he hits another player that's run into him. But once he does, probably not a wise thing to be doing eh? So why not use his brains and anticipate what is going on...

I think you are deliberately missing the point.
Currently if there is a high ball and you are positioned (or getting into position) to catch, and there is a chaser, you are actually obliged to put yourself into potential danger by jumping or anticipate the other player jumping and get out of the way.
IMO that is plain dumb. Why does the player that takes a risk by going to the air have the rights?

Yes, in this occasion everyone knows that dumb ruling applies and he should have jumped himself or got out of the way. I'm not disputing that. I'm simply saying that I find this situation unfair on the player playing the game by the law 'on his feet'.

Is everyone on the ground near where a ball is coming down expected to move away because a chaser may take a flying leap at them? That's what is currently expected and I find that weird as there is no danger at all until that player leaps.

Edit: just to be clear. If the guy on the ground is nowhere near where the ball is coming down he has no rights and shouldn't provide an obstacle for those able to claim he catch.

The timing can be very fine.

There is a debate to be had about marginal red cards. Not this one though. This one was about as obvious and clear red as ever.

I thought Sam Whitelock was MOTM. Those steals at the end were crucial, and he played well all game.

Haven't watched it, won't watch it, but congratulations to Scott Robertson and the whole crusader organisation. It's a remarkable season to play in the NZ conference, only lose once, and then travel to South Africa and win the final. Hell of a year

@mariner4life said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Haven't watched it, won't watch it, but congratulations to Scott Robertson and the whole crusader organisation. It's a remarkable season to play in the NZ conference, only lose once, and then travel to South Africa and win the final. Hell of a year

That's the thing right? They have broken the travel to SA and win a final hoodoo

And at Altitude! Fuck that.

That was just damn tough.

Crotty was outstanding but my hero of the match was Whitelock. Did a McCaw in terms of match durability.

That last 20 mins must have been in a dark dark place. Read too I imagine

Glad I got up to watch that.

A big part of rugby is about anticipating what the opposition will do, both in attack and defence, and often you mistime or misread what will happen and you suffer the consequences. Often no malice or intent, but your inability to anticipate the situation leaves you in the hands of the officials.

There is a lot of clarification required around dangerous play though, we have seen some really harsh penalties and cards this season for plays that are part of the competition, while some cards have been clear and obvious, and some have been let go.

IMO if Kainos forearm in the Lions test was in super rugby it would have been red and copped him a ban, but the bed had been made the week before with SOB.

I have also always been of the opinion that we need to find a better way to deal with 'accidental' red card offenses, but this opens up another can of worms.

I wonder if there has been more cards at super rugby and international than previously?

Congrats Crusaders on a great season.

Special congrats to Bryn Hall.

Solid!

Crusaders learned from the Canes' experience. Slowed things down at nearly every opportunity and needed to. They were looking pretty weary at the end of it.

Thought most of our AB "stars" really stood up in that game - Crotty, Read and Whitelock in particular. Goodhue looked fairly close to flawless as well. Todd and Drummond very good. Most of the others made at least one dumb or careless error that could have been crucial - especially if the Lions had stayed at 15 men.

However, SANZAR had tilted the playing field pretty heavily in the Lions favour, so a bit of adversity to tip some advantage back to us was very welcome.

And on that note - Fuck you SANZAR. You had better have a competent panel designing a fair, reduced competition or I may well not bother watching in future. That so-called "competition" was a fucking farce. I reckon it ended up being as tough as the earthquake season for the Crusaders, so a mighty effort to get the job done.

I'd like to give a heap of credit to the Lions. They were slandered by the NZ media and fanbase because they didn't have to play NZ sides and haven't had to travel in the playoffs, as if they were no-hopers. What they showed against the Canes and in the second half this morning suggests they are legitimately one of the best sides in the comp and would've won their fair share of games against NZ sides had the draw asked them to.

@Wurzel Yes. It is not their fault that SANZAR served up this shambles of a competition.

I find it hard to rank the Lions because they haven't really been fairly tested over the season. Not surprising that they've finished both games over the top of the Canes and Crusaders - not just due to the altitude, but because they've also had a far less grueling season. Lots of easy games where they'll have had plenty of opportunity to rest their players (including the international window).

All that said, they are clearly one of the best teams in the competition - as they showed last year when they were in the SA conference that played the harder schedule.

The comp is won by the best team from the best conference. Nice story about the Lions earlier in the week by Sid but this was the most reasonable result

to answer my own question, I found stats on cards (this just said sinbin, didnt clarify red/yellow) given for 2015/2016/2017 Super seasons (accoridng to Sanzarrugby.com)

Reds were top this year with 13, and the year total was 143
Reds were top in 2015 with 10, and the annual total was 94
Chiefs were top in 2014 with 13, annual total was 91

According to another rugbystatbunker.com, in the same period, for Reds cards we had:
13 in 2017
6 in 2016
10 in 2015

Awesome result. Great for the Crusaders to add another title to their impressive title. Especially travelling to SA to do it.

Don't know how the Lions managed to get scrums reset whenever they collapsed it but the Crusaders got pinged at the slightest hint of doing something wrong. Ref was pretty good overall though. Had no choice on the red card. I agree the red card situation needs to be reviewed but this one wasn't marginal in any way. He wasn't even contesting and Havili landed on his head/neck.

I would like them to introduce an orange card where the player takes no further part but after 15-20min he can be replaced. Reds should be for eye gouging, kicking, kneeing, biting, punching, deliberate foul play etc. Not for tackles that have gone wrong. However that is a seperate discussion because this game thread shouldn't turn into a debate about cards.

Ps. Lots of people talking sbout this format being finished. As far as i know the "new" format still involves conferences, guarenteed home finals but with over half of the teams making the finals. I guess it eliminates the situation where a SA team goes all year not playing NZ or OZ teams which is a step in the right direction but still not ideal.

So fucking good, rivals 1998 for my favourite season ever. I think there's been 5 or 6 games this season I've rated amongst the best ever wins.

Perfect gameplan.... rolling maul defence was outstanding (apparently we haven't conceded a maul try all year). the defense in general shows the biggest difference from last year, we actually care and play with passion.

So bloody happy... will be at the airport to welcome the lads and the trophy home

Just watched it now.

Respect to the Crusaders and their rookie coach who I thought was a strange selection at the time. They've been awesome this season and clearly the best team in the comp.

I'm really in awe of what the Crusaders have achieved in Super rugby and I say that as a rusted on fan boy. The respite provided during the Blackadder era appears to be over.

Personally I really missed the endless side to side but never forward back play of the Blackadder era. It freed me of my addiction to sleeping tablets. Also I thought Fonatia was a big absence this season, Goodhue and Crotty just papered over the gaping wound that was the loss of Kieron's guile and especially speed.

@Billy-Tell haven't we got Aaron Mauger to thank for pioneering the sideways shit? I guess you can always watch the Highlanders next year...

@Crazy-Horse said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Billy-Tell haven't we got Aaron Mauger to thank for pioneering the sideways shit? I guess you can always watch the Highlanders next year...

Mauger ran sideways himself, he didn't pass it sideways.

Ive just seen the game

Somethings got to be done about poor reffing. Poor decisions are destroying rugby. And as a big rugby fan its putting me off the game. The yellow last week was ridiculous. But a mistake with yellow is only for 10 minutes. A mistake with a red can be for a lot longer

In my view if anyone should have got the red card it was Havili. His jump was reckless. He basically jumped into the head of the Lions player. He had nil chance of taking the ball without connecting with the upper body of the player he jumped into = reckless play. But the same clown who gave a yellow last week gave the red this week. Likely because he knew he made a mistake last week and didn't want to be accused of SA bias this week (the reason why neutral refs shoudl always be appointed)

But this has now become fairly consistent. Refs giving debatable decisions. We just need to accept this and reduce the impact of these debatable decisions. My view is now to scrub yellow card and replace penalties with a 4 pointer (yellow card type offense where it will be in the center of the field). The rest will be only 2 points. And keep red card but make it the player leaves the field and doesn't return but he can be replaced after 10 minutes. And the team is penalized 4 points without the kick. Or something like this. Poor or inconsistent reffing is ruining games. Just accept this will continue to happen (refs are human) and try to lessen the impact

@Winger said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Ive just seen the game

Somethings got to be done about poor reffing. Poor decisions are destroying rugby. And as a big rugby fan its putting me off the game. The yellow last week was ridiculous. But a mistake with yellow is only for 10 minutes. A mistake with a red can be for a lot longer

In my view if anyone should have got the red card it was Havili. His jump was reckless. He basically jumped into the head of the Lions player. He had nil chance of taking the ball without connecting with the upper body of the player he jumped into = reckless play. But the same clown who gave a yellow last week gave the red this week. Likely because he knew he made a mistake last week and didn't want to be accused of SA bias this week (the reason why neutral refs shoudl always be appointed)

But this has now become fairly consistent. Refs giving debatable decisions. We just need to accept this and reduce the impact of these debatable decisions. My view is now to scrub yellow card and replace penalties with a 4 pointer (yellow card type offense where it will be in the center of the field). The rest will be only 2 points. And keep red card but make it the player leaves the field and doesn't return but he can be replaced after 10 minutes. And the team is penalized 4 points without the kick. Or something like this. Poor or inconsistent reffing is ruining games. Just accept this will continue to happen (refs are human) and try to lessen the impact

This post will go down like Red Peak.

@Winger No real debate about the decisions - some questions about the laws though
Peyper put in a good shift...for a ref

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

@Winger said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

The yellow last week was ridiculous.

You spelled "fully deserved" incorrectly.

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

Having reacted to that bullshit I will admit i have been schooled. Respect @Winger you are the Uber Troll.

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Ive just seen the game

Somethings got to be done about poor reffing. Poor decisions are destroying rugby. And as a big rugby fan its putting me off the game. The yellow last week was ridiculous. But a mistake with yellow is only for 10 minutes. A mistake with a red can be for a lot longer

In my view if anyone should have got the red card it was Havili. His jump was reckless. He basically jumped into the head of the Lions player. He had nil chance of taking the ball without connecting with the upper body of the player he jumped into = reckless play. But the same clown who gave a yellow last week gave the red this week. Likely because he knew he made a mistake last week and didn't want to be accused of SA bias this week (the reason why neutral refs shoudl always be appointed)

But this has now become fairly consistent. Refs giving debatable decisions. We just need to accept this and reduce the impact of these debatable decisions. My view is now to scrub yellow card and replace penalties with a 4 pointer (yellow card type offense where it will be in the center of the field). The rest will be only 2 points. And keep red card but make it the player leaves the field and doesn't return but he can be replaced after 10 minutes. And the team is penalized 4 points without the kick. Or something like this. Poor or inconsistent reffing is ruining games. Just accept this will continue to happen (refs are human) and try to lessen the impact

This post will go down like Red Peak.

Or antivaxx

@Siam said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger No real debate about the decisions - some questions about the laws though
Peyper put in a good shift...for a ref

I watched the replay in slow motion . When Havili jumped it was impossible for the Lions players to avoid him. He basically jumped into the lions player at the very last minute. and jumped forward into him at head shoulder level. If the lions player had jumped and Havilli hadn't the same thing would have happened. so the reckless player was Havilli not the lion. But the key is lets not yet these decision ruin games as this red card did. Make red a lesser penalty so ref decision = 10 minutes then a replacement.

edit Crucial said the same thing below. but I don't feel the decision was correct

@Winger Yeah mate, I think we all agree it's not right. There was universal "wtf's" when this first turned up in Aviva comp a few seasons ago, and in true fern fashion we debated/vented it to hell and back (except Bones )

But like many illogical laws thrust on a population we've moved from denial to some sort of acceptance.

Sure, it's still rooted but it ain't Jaco's fault or doing - he's just following shitty orders from gin swilling litigation arse-covering administrators toadying up to SJW's, mums and minority rabble rousers.

This player safety thing will win out though, especially when NFL dies out due to more CTE driven massacres and lawsuits - don't believe me? fair enough but the US of A is one fucked up place...

but I digress...

Jaco blameless (in a world where accidents aren't allowed to happen)

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

a bit strong mate? Seen deletions for less eh @Canerbry ?

@Siam I just can't understand this need to see the player's as blameless and devoid of responsibility. Why was it the administration's fault? Looked very, very similar to Smith out on the field, odd. Was he being controlled by the administration? Or could he have taken more care?

@Siam said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

a bit strong mate? Seen deletions for less eh @Canerbry ?

Nah not going to delete @Winger 's post ...

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Ive just seen the game

Somethings got to be done about poor reffing. Poor decisions are destroying rugby. And as a big rugby fan its putting me off the game. The yellow last week was ridiculous. But a mistake with yellow is only for 10 minutes. A mistake with a red can be for a lot longer

In my view if anyone should have got the red card it was Havili. His jump was reckless. He basically jumped into the head of the Lions player. He had nil chance of taking the ball without connecting with the upper body of the player he jumped into = reckless play. But the same clown who gave a yellow last week gave the red this week. Likely because he knew he made a mistake last week and didn't want to be accused of SA bias this week (the reason why neutral refs shoudl always be appointed)

But this has now become fairly consistent. Refs giving debatable decisions. We just need to accept this and reduce the impact of these debatable decisions. My view is now to scrub yellow card and replace penalties with a 4 pointer (yellow card type offense where it will be in the center of the field). The rest will be only 2 points. And keep red card but make it the player leaves the field and doesn't return but he can be replaced after 10 minutes. And the team is penalized 4 points without the kick. Or something like this. Poor or inconsistent reffing is ruining games. Just accept this will continue to happen (refs are human) and try to lessen the impact

This post will go down like Red Peak.

Nice

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

Having reacted to that bullshit I will admit i have been schooled. Respect @Winger you are the Uber Troll.

I've been saying it for years, he's the best troll here by miiiles

@Bones I see exactly where you're coming from too Bones.

I agree with the premise, and it'll stick around forever I think.

Question: I ain't played for ages (decades) and never at a fast level but I can't remember if it's that easy to adjust the running/effort/committment to this new "players responsibility" doctrine.

I guess players have to remove tunnel vision but is it that easy?
Don't you lose a bit of the mongrel factor?
Agree that they have to and on the tele it looks reasonably doable (super slow mos don't help), but what price do we pay for players being cautious instead of rip shit and bust?

Just observing that in Quokka's case it highlights a different thought process of "get to the ball" vs "get to the ball, fuck is he going to jump? will I make it? get to the ball, can I smash him?"

Seems a lot to process at a hundred miles an hour - but yeah, I guess they have to

just realised it's been a bout a month since I pissed and moaned about....

FUCKING players rolling along the fucking ground for fucking yards after being tackled!!!

Surely some fucker is going to roll all the way down the pitch one day, joyfully reveling in a cockstain ref bleating "not held"

@Winger
When I wrote your first post, I thought you were joking. But it seems you are not !
Havili was jumping towards the ball (look at his eyes), not towards Smith's head. Peyper did what he had to do : to show a red card to Kwagga Smith.