@Wurzel Yes. It is not their fault that SANZAR served up this shambles of a competition.

I find it hard to rank the Lions because they haven't really been fairly tested over the season. Not surprising that they've finished both games over the top of the Canes and Crusaders - not just due to the altitude, but because they've also had a far less grueling season. Lots of easy games where they'll have had plenty of opportunity to rest their players (including the international window).

All that said, they are clearly one of the best teams in the competition - as they showed last year when they were in the SA conference that played the harder schedule.

The comp is won by the best team from the best conference. Nice story about the Lions earlier in the week by Sid but this was the most reasonable result

to answer my own question, I found stats on cards (this just said sinbin, didnt clarify red/yellow) given for 2015/2016/2017 Super seasons (accoridng to Sanzarrugby.com)

Reds were top this year with 13, and the year total was 143
Reds were top in 2015 with 10, and the annual total was 94
Chiefs were top in 2014 with 13, annual total was 91

According to another rugbystatbunker.com, in the same period, for Reds cards we had:
13 in 2017
6 in 2016
10 in 2015

Awesome result. Great for the Crusaders to add another title to their impressive title. Especially travelling to SA to do it.

Don't know how the Lions managed to get scrums reset whenever they collapsed it but the Crusaders got pinged at the slightest hint of doing something wrong. Ref was pretty good overall though. Had no choice on the red card. I agree the red card situation needs to be reviewed but this one wasn't marginal in any way. He wasn't even contesting and Havili landed on his head/neck.

I would like them to introduce an orange card where the player takes no further part but after 15-20min he can be replaced. Reds should be for eye gouging, kicking, kneeing, biting, punching, deliberate foul play etc. Not for tackles that have gone wrong. However that is a seperate discussion because this game thread shouldn't turn into a debate about cards.

Ps. Lots of people talking sbout this format being finished. As far as i know the "new" format still involves conferences, guarenteed home finals but with over half of the teams making the finals. I guess it eliminates the situation where a SA team goes all year not playing NZ or OZ teams which is a step in the right direction but still not ideal.

So fucking good, rivals 1998 for my favourite season ever. I think there's been 5 or 6 games this season I've rated amongst the best ever wins.

Perfect gameplan.... rolling maul defence was outstanding (apparently we haven't conceded a maul try all year). the defense in general shows the biggest difference from last year, we actually care and play with passion.

So bloody happy... will be at the airport to welcome the lads and the trophy home

Just watched it now.

Respect to the Crusaders and their rookie coach who I thought was a strange selection at the time. They've been awesome this season and clearly the best team in the comp.

I'm really in awe of what the Crusaders have achieved in Super rugby and I say that as a rusted on fan boy. The respite provided during the Blackadder era appears to be over.

Personally I really missed the endless side to side but never forward back play of the Blackadder era. It freed me of my addiction to sleeping tablets. Also I thought Fonatia was a big absence this season, Goodhue and Crotty just papered over the gaping wound that was the loss of Kieron's guile and especially speed.

@Billy-Tell haven't we got Aaron Mauger to thank for pioneering the sideways shit? I guess you can always watch the Highlanders next year...

@Crazy-Horse said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Billy-Tell haven't we got Aaron Mauger to thank for pioneering the sideways shit? I guess you can always watch the Highlanders next year...

Mauger ran sideways himself, he didn't pass it sideways.

Ive just seen the game

Somethings got to be done about poor reffing. Poor decisions are destroying rugby. And as a big rugby fan its putting me off the game. The yellow last week was ridiculous. But a mistake with yellow is only for 10 minutes. A mistake with a red can be for a lot longer

In my view if anyone should have got the red card it was Havili. His jump was reckless. He basically jumped into the head of the Lions player. He had nil chance of taking the ball without connecting with the upper body of the player he jumped into = reckless play. But the same clown who gave a yellow last week gave the red this week. Likely because he knew he made a mistake last week and didn't want to be accused of SA bias this week (the reason why neutral refs shoudl always be appointed)

But this has now become fairly consistent. Refs giving debatable decisions. We just need to accept this and reduce the impact of these debatable decisions. My view is now to scrub yellow card and replace penalties with a 4 pointer (yellow card type offense where it will be in the center of the field). The rest will be only 2 points. And keep red card but make it the player leaves the field and doesn't return but he can be replaced after 10 minutes. And the team is penalized 4 points without the kick. Or something like this. Poor or inconsistent reffing is ruining games. Just accept this will continue to happen (refs are human) and try to lessen the impact

@Winger said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Ive just seen the game

Somethings got to be done about poor reffing. Poor decisions are destroying rugby. And as a big rugby fan its putting me off the game. The yellow last week was ridiculous. But a mistake with yellow is only for 10 minutes. A mistake with a red can be for a lot longer

In my view if anyone should have got the red card it was Havili. His jump was reckless. He basically jumped into the head of the Lions player. He had nil chance of taking the ball without connecting with the upper body of the player he jumped into = reckless play. But the same clown who gave a yellow last week gave the red this week. Likely because he knew he made a mistake last week and didn't want to be accused of SA bias this week (the reason why neutral refs shoudl always be appointed)

But this has now become fairly consistent. Refs giving debatable decisions. We just need to accept this and reduce the impact of these debatable decisions. My view is now to scrub yellow card and replace penalties with a 4 pointer (yellow card type offense where it will be in the center of the field). The rest will be only 2 points. And keep red card but make it the player leaves the field and doesn't return but he can be replaced after 10 minutes. And the team is penalized 4 points without the kick. Or something like this. Poor or inconsistent reffing is ruining games. Just accept this will continue to happen (refs are human) and try to lessen the impact

This post will go down like Red Peak.

@Winger No real debate about the decisions - some questions about the laws though
Peyper put in a good shift...for a ref

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

@Winger said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

The yellow last week was ridiculous.

You spelled "fully deserved" incorrectly.

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

Having reacted to that bullshit I will admit i have been schooled. Respect @Winger you are the Uber Troll.

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Ive just seen the game

Somethings got to be done about poor reffing. Poor decisions are destroying rugby. And as a big rugby fan its putting me off the game. The yellow last week was ridiculous. But a mistake with yellow is only for 10 minutes. A mistake with a red can be for a lot longer

In my view if anyone should have got the red card it was Havili. His jump was reckless. He basically jumped into the head of the Lions player. He had nil chance of taking the ball without connecting with the upper body of the player he jumped into = reckless play. But the same clown who gave a yellow last week gave the red this week. Likely because he knew he made a mistake last week and didn't want to be accused of SA bias this week (the reason why neutral refs shoudl always be appointed)

But this has now become fairly consistent. Refs giving debatable decisions. We just need to accept this and reduce the impact of these debatable decisions. My view is now to scrub yellow card and replace penalties with a 4 pointer (yellow card type offense where it will be in the center of the field). The rest will be only 2 points. And keep red card but make it the player leaves the field and doesn't return but he can be replaced after 10 minutes. And the team is penalized 4 points without the kick. Or something like this. Poor or inconsistent reffing is ruining games. Just accept this will continue to happen (refs are human) and try to lessen the impact

This post will go down like Red Peak.

Or antivaxx

@Siam said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger No real debate about the decisions - some questions about the laws though
Peyper put in a good shift...for a ref

I watched the replay in slow motion . When Havili jumped it was impossible for the Lions players to avoid him. He basically jumped into the lions player at the very last minute. and jumped forward into him at head shoulder level. If the lions player had jumped and Havilli hadn't the same thing would have happened. so the reckless player was Havilli not the lion. But the key is lets not yet these decision ruin games as this red card did. Make red a lesser penalty so ref decision = 10 minutes then a replacement.

edit Crucial said the same thing below. but I don't feel the decision was correct

@Winger Yeah mate, I think we all agree it's not right. There was universal "wtf's" when this first turned up in Aviva comp a few seasons ago, and in true fern fashion we debated/vented it to hell and back (except Bones )

But like many illogical laws thrust on a population we've moved from denial to some sort of acceptance.

Sure, it's still rooted but it ain't Jaco's fault or doing - he's just following shitty orders from gin swilling litigation arse-covering administrators toadying up to SJW's, mums and minority rabble rousers.

This player safety thing will win out though, especially when NFL dies out due to more CTE driven massacres and lawsuits - don't believe me? fair enough but the US of A is one fucked up place...

but I digress...

Jaco blameless (in a world where accidents aren't allowed to happen)

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

a bit strong mate? Seen deletions for less eh @Canerbry ?

@Siam I just can't understand this need to see the player's as blameless and devoid of responsibility. Why was it the administration's fault? Looked very, very similar to Smith out on the field, odd. Was he being controlled by the administration? Or could he have taken more care?

@Siam said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

a bit strong mate? Seen deletions for less eh @Canerbry ?

Nah not going to delete @Winger 's post ...

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Ive just seen the game

Somethings got to be done about poor reffing. Poor decisions are destroying rugby. And as a big rugby fan its putting me off the game. The yellow last week was ridiculous. But a mistake with yellow is only for 10 minutes. A mistake with a red can be for a lot longer

In my view if anyone should have got the red card it was Havili. His jump was reckless. He basically jumped into the head of the Lions player. He had nil chance of taking the ball without connecting with the upper body of the player he jumped into = reckless play. But the same clown who gave a yellow last week gave the red this week. Likely because he knew he made a mistake last week and didn't want to be accused of SA bias this week (the reason why neutral refs shoudl always be appointed)

But this has now become fairly consistent. Refs giving debatable decisions. We just need to accept this and reduce the impact of these debatable decisions. My view is now to scrub yellow card and replace penalties with a 4 pointer (yellow card type offense where it will be in the center of the field). The rest will be only 2 points. And keep red card but make it the player leaves the field and doesn't return but he can be replaced after 10 minutes. And the team is penalized 4 points without the kick. Or something like this. Poor or inconsistent reffing is ruining games. Just accept this will continue to happen (refs are human) and try to lessen the impact

This post will go down like Red Peak.

Nice

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@booboo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Winger fuck off Winger that was a red all day every day

Having reacted to that bullshit I will admit i have been schooled. Respect @Winger you are the Uber Troll.

I've been saying it for years, he's the best troll here by miiiles

@Bones I see exactly where you're coming from too Bones.

I agree with the premise, and it'll stick around forever I think.

Question: I ain't played for ages (decades) and never at a fast level but I can't remember if it's that easy to adjust the running/effort/committment to this new "players responsibility" doctrine.

I guess players have to remove tunnel vision but is it that easy?
Don't you lose a bit of the mongrel factor?
Agree that they have to and on the tele it looks reasonably doable (super slow mos don't help), but what price do we pay for players being cautious instead of rip shit and bust?

Just observing that in Quokka's case it highlights a different thought process of "get to the ball" vs "get to the ball, fuck is he going to jump? will I make it? get to the ball, can I smash him?"

Seems a lot to process at a hundred miles an hour - but yeah, I guess they have to

just realised it's been a bout a month since I pissed and moaned about....

FUCKING players rolling along the fucking ground for fucking yards after being tackled!!!

Surely some fucker is going to roll all the way down the pitch one day, joyfully reveling in a cockstain ref bleating "not held"

@Winger
When I wrote your first post, I thought you were joking. But it seems you are not !
Havili was jumping towards the ball (look at his eyes), not towards Smith's head. Peyper did what he had to do : to show a red card to Kwagga Smith.

@Winger said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

I watched the replay in slow motion . When Havili jumped it was impossible for the Lions players to avoid him. He basically jumped into the lions player at the very last minute. and jumped forward into him at head shoulder level.

Can't you leave your attention seeking at your conspiracy theories? It was a red card every day of the week.

@Bones said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Siam I just can't understand this need to see the player's as blameless and devoid of responsibility. Why was it the administration's fault? Looked very, very similar to Smith out on the field, odd. Was he being controlled by the administration? Or could he have taken more care?

it's contentious because unlike foul play red cards, there are two players contributing to the situation and also there's a huge subjective element for such a harsh penalty
and
the after the fact analysis of how he landed is entirely arbitrary to the actions of the transgressor and determines his sanction - that's spurious

ergo administrators gave us this edict and it's pretty irrational and inconsistent

Whereas a red card kick or knee or punch is only really one way traffic

There have been several games this season where players got their timing exactly right and tackled the jumping player as soon as his feet touched the ground; often because the player arriving last held back in time. It's a matter of anticipating what is going to happen if there is a high kick. Kwagga Smith could have and should have anticipated that Havili was going for the ball and was going to jump. It was also clear he wouldn't be in time to catch the ball himself and he should have held back until Havili had landed. He didn't hold back; just moved his arms forward in the last second before impact. No way the ball was in the middle between both players.

Here's an example from the Jaguares v Lions game (round 3) where the jumper is penalised because he got his timing wrong; the "victim" wasn't jumping (or had already landed after something that can hardly be called a jump). I hope the link works:

If I remember it correctly, Sánchez was yellow carded for this incident. However, he was cited and received a one-week suspension.

@Stargazer said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

There have been several games this season where players got their timing exactly right and tackled the jumping player as soon as his feet touched the ground; often because the player arriving last held back in time. It's a matter of anticipating what is going to happen if there is a high kick. Kwagga Smith could have and should have anticipated that Havili was going for the ball and was going to jump. It was also clear he wouldn't be in time to catch the ball himself and he should have held back until Havili had landed. He didn't hold back; just moved his arms forward in the last second before impact. No way the ball was in the middle between both players.

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That is a dreadful challenge and I can understand the red card. Havili never took his eyes off the ball, had it in his grasp when Smith took him out. It was clumsy, it was dangerous, and you can't do that under the current law interpretations

At the time I thought it was a clear red.
To be fair, though, the slow mo doesn't show definitively what Smith was doing just before the jump. Tafua was also in the vicinity (but turned away) and a number of players were moving towards the play. Was Smith challenging? Not sure he was. I think he put his hands up at least in part as self protection.
Would like to see slo mo/replay of Smith in second before impact.
And if he wasn't trying to challenge, what WAS he meant to do: catch Havelli in his arms, dive out of the way?
So maybe not as clear cut as it seemed at the time?

Using the patented play pause technique on the YouTube clip it seems Smith propped when Havili jumped. I don't think he challenged. But to be honest it all happened so quickly I'm not sure Smith had time to think. He certainly was too slow to avoid being smacked in the way through.
So, whilst the red seems correct under the guidelines, it seems doubtful to me that Smith could have done much differently. In which case an accident, not reckless and not a situation where protocol ought to be mandatory red.
Which begs the question of the jumper...