@Bones said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Siam I just can't understand this need to see the player's as blameless and devoid of responsibility. Why was it the administration's fault? Looked very, very similar to Smith out on the field, odd. Was he being controlled by the administration? Or could he have taken more care?

it's contentious because unlike foul play red cards, there are two players contributing to the situation and also there's a huge subjective element for such a harsh penalty
and
the after the fact analysis of how he landed is entirely arbitrary to the actions of the transgressor and determines his sanction - that's spurious

ergo administrators gave us this edict and it's pretty irrational and inconsistent

Whereas a red card kick or knee or punch is only really one way traffic

There have been several games this season where players got their timing exactly right and tackled the jumping player as soon as his feet touched the ground; often because the player arriving last held back in time. It's a matter of anticipating what is going to happen if there is a high kick. Kwagga Smith could have and should have anticipated that Havili was going for the ball and was going to jump. It was also clear he wouldn't be in time to catch the ball himself and he should have held back until Havili had landed. He didn't hold back; just moved his arms forward in the last second before impact. No way the ball was in the middle between both players.

Here's an example from the Jaguares v Lions game (round 3) where the jumper is penalised because he got his timing wrong; the "victim" wasn't jumping (or had already landed after something that can hardly be called a jump). I hope the link works:

If I remember it correctly, Sánchez was yellow carded for this incident. However, he was cited and received a one-week suspension.

@Stargazer said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

There have been several games this season where players got their timing exactly right and tackled the jumping player as soon as his feet touched the ground; often because the player arriving last held back in time. It's a matter of anticipating what is going to happen if there is a high kick. Kwagga Smith could have and should have anticipated that Havili was going for the ball and was going to jump. It was also clear he wouldn't be in time to catch the ball himself and he should have held back until Havili had landed. He didn't hold back; just moved his arms forward in the last second before impact. No way the ball was in the middle between both players.

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That is a dreadful challenge and I can understand the red card. Havili never took his eyes off the ball, had it in his grasp when Smith took him out. It was clumsy, it was dangerous, and you can't do that under the current law interpretations

At the time I thought it was a clear red.
To be fair, though, the slow mo doesn't show definitively what Smith was doing just before the jump. Tafua was also in the vicinity (but turned away) and a number of players were moving towards the play. Was Smith challenging? Not sure he was. I think he put his hands up at least in part as self protection.
Would like to see slo mo/replay of Smith in second before impact.
And if he wasn't trying to challenge, what WAS he meant to do: catch Havelli in his arms, dive out of the way?
So maybe not as clear cut as it seemed at the time?

Using the patented play pause technique on the YouTube clip it seems Smith propped when Havili jumped. I don't think he challenged. But to be honest it all happened so quickly I'm not sure Smith had time to think. He certainly was too slow to avoid being smacked in the way through.
So, whilst the red seems correct under the guidelines, it seems doubtful to me that Smith could have done much differently. In which case an accident, not reckless and not a situation where protocol ought to be mandatory red.
Which begs the question of the jumper...

There was a play during the game that Tamanivalu kicked an up and under, chased and then he and one of the Lions both jumped to challenge for the ball.

I must admit that I held my breath thinking Setu was not going to make it and would up end some Lions player. But it showed exactly how those plays can be a fair contest for both sides with both players in the air. A good hard challenge.

Smith got not only his timing completely wrong but failed to contest the ball. The result of which went from just not only dangerous but to reckless. The impact of the fall and how Havili landed is important as is the case of a dangerous tackle.

Smith should've jumped and challenged for the ball if he was in the vicinity. He failed to contest or play for the ball and rugby is about the contest.

During the match, they had a stat up for the Crusaders that this is their 17th win on the trot? Didn't they lose to the canes a few weeks back?

@ACT-Crusader said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Smith should've jumped and challenged for the ball if he was in the vicinity. He failed to contest or play for the ball and rugby is about the contest.

This - if you charge at full speed towards a high kick and don't jump, all you're going to be able to do in the play is make the tackle, and he royally fucked it up.

Nothing controversial about it.

@Hooroo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

During the match, they had a stat up for the Crusaders that this is their 17th win on the trot? Didn't they lose to the canes a few weeks back?

Round robin: 14 wins - one loss
QF: win
SF: win
F: win

Total: 17 wins

@Hooroo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

During the match, they had a stat up for the Crusaders that this is their 17th win on the trot? Didn't they lose to the canes a few weeks back?

I assume the stat would have been the longest unbeaten streak in SR history. The Crusaders hold that with 17 from back in the mid 2000's

The Lions were getting up there. I think they were on 14 going into the final

@Stargazer Yeah, that isn't 17 on the trot but thanks

@Duluth said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Hooroo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

During the match, they had a stat up for the Crusaders that this is their 17th win on the trot? Didn't they lose to the canes a few weeks back?

I assume the stat would have been the longest unbeaten streak in SR history. The Crusaders hold that with 17 from back in the mid 2000's

The Lions were getting up there. I think they were on 14 going into the final

Oh was it a stat for the Lions? I thought they were saying it was for the Crusaders saying that if they win and then win again next season they will beat there own record?

@Hooroo It wouldn't have been 17 on the trot for the Lions or Crusaders, so I could only imagine that that was what they meant. The Crusaders unbeaten streak ended when they lost to the Canes and the Lions could only have reached 15 if they'd won the final.

Edited to add: the Lions could have equalled the Crusaders record if they'd won the final and then the first game of 2018.

@pakman said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Using the patented play pause technique on the YouTube clip it seems Smith propped when Havili jumped. I don't think he challenged. But to be honest it all happened so quickly I'm not sure Smith had time to think. He certainly was too slow to avoid being smacked in the way through.
So, whilst the red seems correct under the guidelines, it seems doubtful to me that Smith could have done much differently. In which case an accident, not reckless and not a situation where protocol ought to be mandatory red.
Which begs the question of the jumper...

What, you don't think Smith knew the ball had been kicked in the air?

Once a ball has been kicked it is very, very clear that you can't just run blindly into the landing zone. You have to assess whether you can legitimately contest the catch. If you're not in a position to do so then your absolute priority is to not make contact with a guy who is in the dominant catching position while he is in the air.

If you do, you are playing with fire.

@Stargazer

17 is the longest unbeaten streak so I assume that is what hooroo saw

@Duluth said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Stargazer

17 is the longest unbeaten streak so I assume that is what hooroo saw

And what a season that was

If I was to compare the two I'd probably take this one given the strength of the NZ conference the Lions tour 'disruption' and some of the newbies that have shone under Razor's gameplan.

While Robertson is getting most of the plaudits for turning the Crusaders around, I wonder how much credit we should be giving Whitelock? Is he turning out to be a better leader than Read?

@Duluth @ACT-Crusader Just a detail, but an important one, the longest unbeaten streak is 16. See the graphic I posted above from Opta.

@Stargazer Who's that guy in the photo advertising for a Mako$ contract?

@Stargazer said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Duluth @ACT-Crusader Just a detail, but an important one, the longest unbeaten streak is 16. See the graphic I posted above from Opta.

No you are wrong

The longest winning streak is 16

The longest unbeaten streak is 17

The winning streak ended when the Crusaders drew with the Force (A good trivia question - who ended the winning streak)

They then lost the next game to finish the unbeaten streak

@Chris-B. Haha, Lionel Mapoe (I think).

@Duluth Ah, okay, we're looking at draws now, too!

@Stargazer said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Duluth Ah, okay, we're looking at draws now, too!

Words have meanings

Winning is not the same as unbeaten

It's not that difficult

@Duluth Thanks for the English lesson.

So @Duluth didn't they put up a visual during the game saying the Crusaders were on an unbeaten streak of 15 of summink?

@Hooroo

No idea. I was just guessing based on what you said you saw

@Hooroo said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

So @Duluth didn't they put up a visual during the game saying the Crusaders were on an unbeaten streak of 15 of summink?

We were on a great run up until the Canes game. That's what they must've shown.

@Chris-B. said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@pakman said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Using the patented play pause technique on the YouTube clip it seems Smith propped when Havili jumped. I don't think he challenged. But to be honest it all happened so quickly I'm not sure Smith had time to think. He certainly was too slow to avoid being smacked in the way through.
So, whilst the red seems correct under the guidelines, it seems doubtful to me that Smith could have done much differently. In which case an accident, not reckless and not a situation where protocol ought to be mandatory red.
Which begs the question of the jumper...

What, you don't think Smith knew the ball had been kicked in the air?

Once a ball has been kicked it is very, very clear that you can't just run blindly into the landing zone. You have to assess whether you can legitimately contest the catch. If you're not in a position to do so then your absolute priority is to not make contact with a guy who is in the dominant catching position while he is in the air.

If you do, you are playing with fire.

+1 to this. I couldn't believe there was any dispute about it on the always solid and sensible Fern.

He had a brain fart where he ran at full tit towards where the ball would land and arrived right on cue - slow motion has no seat at this judicial table.

IMHO Robertson really only stuffed up once with his selecting: he got the B&I team selection wrong.

Fair play to him for putting it right and not losing to the Lions for a 2nd time in 2017.

@KiwiPie said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@Chris-B. said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

@pakman said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:

Using the patented play pause technique on the YouTube clip it seems Smith propped when Havili jumped. I don't think he challenged. But to be honest it all happened so quickly I'm not sure Smith had time to think. He certainly was too slow to avoid being smacked in the way through.
So, whilst the red seems correct under the guidelines, it seems doubtful to me that Smith could have done much differently. In which case an accident, not reckless and not a situation where protocol ought to be mandatory red.
Which begs the question of the jumper...

What, you don't think Smith knew the ball had been kicked in the air?

Once a ball has been kicked it is very, very clear that you can't just run blindly into the landing zone. You have to assess whether you can legitimately contest the catch. If you're not in a position to do so then your absolute priority is to not make contact with a guy who is in the dominant catching position while he is in the air.

If you do, you are playing with fire.

+1 to this. I couldn't believe there was any dispute about it on the always solid and sensible Fern.

He had a brain fart where he ran at full tit towards where the ball would land and arrived right on cue - slow motion has no seat at this judicial table.

Never venture to the Off Topic part of the forum KP?

People are asking what Smith should have done. See the clip below for what he should have done*:

Dagg knew early on in the chase that he wasn't a realistic chance to compete for the ball so he pulled back and timed his run so as to tackle the catcher the moment his legs hit the ground. It's what Smith should have done. He played with fire and got burnt.

IMO It was a dreadful challenge and deserved a Red Card. Not because of an "interpretation" or because of some silly rule the refs have to follow - he deserved a Red Card because he recklessly committed an act that could have snapped a guys neck if anything had gone majorly wrong.

*Clip shamelessly stolen from the Rugbyrefs forum.