Happy with that Bok win although still frustrated that we have yet to really find our rhythm on this EOYT.

For England... another loss that I'm sure hurts.
But, I really don't think England are very far off the pace. They just seem to miss a little something than when they find it, I believe will click them into gear. For what it's worth, I thought Underhill was colossal. How he isn't in every match 23 is beyond me.

A question for @Dodge and @Catogrande and every other poster that watches English rugby closely:
Is this not the time for England rugby to adopt the approach of picking players even if they don't play in the Premiership?
Will that really undermine the England club game that much?

Another question:
If Borthwick were to get the sack, who would you want as England coach?
(If it were me - I'd go with Felix Jones...)

@mariner4life said in England vs Springboks:

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@W32

We’re a prop, an 8 and a centre partnership from being potentially good. We would need to ad a decent and stable coaching team to that.

wait, what's wrong with your 8? from the 2 England games i watched this month the loose forward trio have been bloody good. what am i missing?

Earl has done very well playing out of position. He’s very small for an 8 and lacks a bit of heavyweight punch. He’s made good ground with his speed and footwork to be sure but doesn’t have that extra when the speed etc gets nullified. He’s more of a natural 7 and let’s not forget that he became England’s 8 by accident when Borthwick only took one 8 to the World Cup - the washed up Billy V and was forced into making the change.

@Billy-Webb

OK, first question. In truth there aren’t that many playing abroad that would realistically be in contention. Jack Willis, Henry Arundell and Farrell. The former two stayed over in France due to being overlooked and or messed around by England and Farrell’ issues are fairly clear, plus he’s near the end of his International career. I can’t think of too many more tbh.

Second question. I think we’re stuck with Borthwick for the 6N but we need to be looking around for a replacement. Just who that may be is another matter. We seem to completely bugger up the timing in looking for our coaches, always looking desperately around because we’ve hung on too long and missed opportunities to secure good, proven International coaches. Hence my view of sticking with Borthwick for another 6 months of so.

@Catogrande surely Farrell would love to return home?

As an AB fan, that would worry me.

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Billy-Webb

OK, first question. In truth there aren’t that many playing abroad that would realistically be in contention. Jack Willis, Henry Arundell and Farrell. The former two stayed over in France due to being overlooked and or messed around by England and Farrell’ issues are fairly clear, plus he’s near the end of his International career. I can’t think of too many more tbh.

Playing Marcus Smith at 10, with Farrell at 12 would be a step up though surely?

@Bones

I’m not so sure, but it depends on how much he and his family are enjoying life in France. There is of course the money side of things and who in England has room within the salary cap to cope. More importantly though is that part of the reason he made the move was for the well being of his family and himself. He was getting a lot of online hate, which is despicable. Odd isn’t it that when someone is personally targeted and there are clear consequences for that person, the police are nowhere to be seen..

@Billy-Webb said in England vs Springboks:

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Billy-Webb

OK, first question. In truth there aren’t that many playing abroad that would realistically be in contention. Jack Willis, Henry Arundell and Farrell. The former two stayed over in France due to being overlooked and or messed around by England and Farrell’ issues are fairly clear, plus he’s near the end of his International career. I can’t think of too many more tbh.

Playing Marcus Smith at 10, with Farrell at 12 would be a step up though surely?

It makes sense on paper but in truth you’d then have Farrell calling the shots and stifling Smith.

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Bones

I’m not so sure, but it depends on how much he and his family are enjoying life in France. There is of course the money side of things and who in England has room within the salary cap to cope. More importantly though is that part of the reason he made the move was for the well being of his family and himself. He was getting a lot of online hate, which is despicable. Odd isn’t it that when someone is personally targeted and there are clear consequences for that person, the police are nowhere to be seen..

I think you're talking about the player?

@Bones

D’oh!

Farrell at 12 is done, he’s not enough of a threat with ball in hand and he doesn’t run off Smith’s shoulder. Lawrence should be 12 but our 13 also needs to carry more threat, there are a few around like Northmore at Quins who deserve a run.

Don’t know who could come in as coach now but assuming we haven’t pissed off and insulted F Jones beyond redemption I’d love him to have a go. My conspiracy theory head says that’s why we wouldn’t release him from his contract…

@Dodge
On an unrelated note - am I over-hyping Sam Underhill's performance?
I thought he was immense.
Why is he not a permanent fixture in the match day 23?

@Billy-Webb said in England vs Springboks:

@Dodge
On an unrelated note - am I over-hyping Sam Underhill's performance?
I thought he was immense.
Why is he not a permanent fixture in the match day 23?

No, I think he should be in the 23, and probably in the XV instead of Curry at this stage - I’ll be honest, I’ve never been much good at identifying the best 6 / 7s. Think we need CCS as he’s the best ball carrier in the tight, think Earl has to be in the back row and then am never sure who’s the best 7 out of Underhill and Curry.

@Dodge said in England vs Springboks:

@Billy-Webb said in England vs Springboks:

@Dodge
On an unrelated note - am I over-hyping Sam Underhill's performance?
I thought he was immense.
Why is he not a permanent fixture in the match day 23?

No, I think he should be in the 23, and probably in the XV instead of Curry at this stage - I’ll be honest, I’ve never been much good at identifying the best 6 / 7s. Think we need CCS as he’s the best ball carrier in the tight, think Earl has to be in the back row and then am never sure who’s the best 7 out of Underhill and Curry.

Makes sense from what I have seen - CCS + Earl.
Then you have the luxury of staring either of Curry or Underhill and having the other off the bench.
For me, Underhill could cover 6 & 7

I think CCS should be able to cover 6 and 8, but his hands and skills aren't good enough for 8 yet. Earl and Curry have both played 6, 7 and 8. Underhill covers 6 and 7. Problem is we keep picking Dombrandt on the bench. I like AD against tired defences playing off Smith's shoulder, but our team aren't strong enough to carry a lack of grunt, good in the loose, ball playing 8 at the moment.

@Billy-Webb

Interestingly, when both Curry and Underhill were playing for England together (2019) it was Underhill preferred at 7 with Curry switching to 6. It was actually quite a good balance and of course very quick. We had Billy V at 8 who was really beginning to show his age (although not actually that old) so we bloody well needed that extra speed.

@Dodge

Agreed on both CCS and Dombrandt - I replay like the way he plays for Quins but firstly, England do not play that way and secondly I'm still not sure his game and skillset work at International level. We've seen glimpses where his handling and running lines make a difference but not enough times to cover for all the times he goes missing..

Our bench has been utter dogshit all this series and more frustratingly looked utter dogshit just seeing it written down. That it underwhelmed continually was no surprise at all.

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Billy-Webb

Interestingly, when both Curry and Underhill were playing for England together (2019) it was Underhill preferred at 7 with Curry switching to 6. It was actually quite a good balance and of course very quick. We had Billy V at 8 who was really beginning to show his age (although not actually that old) so we bloody well needed that extra speed.

Maybe I just haven't seen him in a while, but Underhill looked to me like he has bulked up quite a bit?

@Billy-Webb

He's always been very big around the shoulders to be fair. Maybe a bit more added recently but he's never been scrawny.

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Billy-Webb

Interestingly, when both Curry and Underhill were playing for England together (2019) it was Underhill preferred at 7 with Curry switching to 6. It was actually quite a good balance and of course very quick.

Yes it was a lethal combo.

@NTA no doubt you were being hyperbolic to make your point. And there’s no question SA isn’t producing the quality of refs it did but after Watson we gave the world the underrated Mark Lawrence and the best ref of the early pro era: Kaplan.

You’ve also ignored Craig Joubert, who was superb whatever the Whinging Scots and bitter French bleat. I’m biased: in his teens he reffed me all the way up from u14C to Firsts. But in my personal rugby six degrees of separation I’m prouder of being part of his journey than the small part I played in Skinstad, Butch James or Danie Rossouw’s.

Listing these officials reminds me that SA’s loss of rugby capital over the last few decades has been immense. Kaplan should be mentoring young SA refs and reffing schoolboy derbies - instead he emigrated to Canada. Last I heard he was running the MLR officials.

@nostrildamus said in England vs Springboks:

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Billy-Webb

Interestingly, when both Curry and Underhill were playing for England together (2019) it was Underhill preferred at 7 with Curry switching to 6. It was actually quite a good balance and of course very quick.

Yes it was a lethal combo.

England pack is short a serious, angry lump in the front row and, with Chessum injured, a mean Martin Johnson-style 4. Martin is average at best. Doesn’t strike fear in the hearts of jacklers at the breakdown, do much of anything in the lineout and isn’t a significant heavy carrier.

He’s also amongst the worst fringe defenders in test rugby.

All of which puts heavy pressure on loosies and 12 to carry in close and on other tighties in the trenches.

Maybe with Chessum and Angry FR Lump to Be IDed Borthwick could afford to start Earl. It was madness to do so without them against the Boks. Should’ve gone with the biggest, meanest 8 in England with Undehill and C-S (who’s going to be a real weapon when he grows up.) then bring Earl on to run at tired players.

@Smuts wasn't joubert passed over for a RWC? Shithouse.

@Bones don’t think so. He retired shortly after his abominable treatment by the Scots after the 2015 QF.

Think he was keen to ref the Olympics but didn’t get the shout?

@Smuts I'm thinking of Lawrence, he was very good.

@Smuts said in England vs Springboks:

@nostrildamus said in England vs Springboks:

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Billy-Webb

Interestingly, when both Curry and Underhill were playing for England together (2019) it was Underhill preferred at 7 with Curry switching to 6. It was actually quite a good balance and of course very quick.

Yes it was a lethal combo.

England pack is short a serious, angry lump in the front row and, with Chessum injured, a mean Martin Johnson-style 4. Martin is average at best. Doesn’t strike fear in the hearts of jacklers at the breakdown, do much of anything in the lineout and isn’t a significant heavy carrier.

He’s also amongst the worst fringe defenders in test rugby.

All of which puts heavy pressure on loosies and 12 to carry in close and on other tighties in the trenches.

Maybe with Chessum and Angry FR Lump to Be IDed Borthwick could afford to start Earl. It was madness to do so without them against the Boks. Should’ve gone with the biggest, meanest 8 in England with Undehill and C-S (who’s going to be a real weapon when he grows up.) then bring Earl on to run at tired players.

Totally disagree about Martin, he’s the rock this pack is built on at the moment, the only lock we’ve got that can push in the scrum and carries hard in the loose - I also think he’s mean in the Johnson sense. He’s young and he is not as dynamic as he was at the end of last season. He needs some work around the fringes but maybe him alongside Chessum would be a better combo than him and Maro.

@Dodge

Re that fringe defence, there was an interesting take on the Rugby Pod. Basically that there were a few times normally good fringe defenders got found out and that was not coincidence. The system or maybe the change in defence coach is more likely the issue. Andy Foode made a good point about Joe El Abd was coach of Oyannax who were 16th out of 18 in Div2 of the French league. Is that good enough to warrant promotion to England coach?

@Dodge said in England vs Springboks:

@Smuts said in England vs Springboks:

@nostrildamus said in England vs Springboks:

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Billy-Webb

Interestingly, when both Curry and Underhill were playing for England together (2019) it was Underhill preferred at 7 with Curry switching to 6. It was actually quite a good balance and of course very quick.

Yes it was a lethal combo.

England pack is short a serious, angry lump in the front row and, with Chessum injured, a mean Martin Johnson-style 4. Martin is average at best. Doesn’t strike fear in the hearts of jacklers at the breakdown, do much of anything in the lineout and isn’t a significant heavy carrier.

He’s also amongst the worst fringe defenders in test rugby.

All of which puts heavy pressure on loosies and 12 to carry in close and on other tighties in the trenches.

Maybe with Chessum and Angry FR Lump to Be IDed Borthwick could afford to start Earl. It was madness to do so without them against the Boks. Should’ve gone with the biggest, meanest 8 in England with Undehill and C-S (who’s going to be a real weapon when he grows up.) then bring Earl on to run at tired players.

Totally disagree about Martin, he’s the rock this pack is built on at the moment, the only lock we’ve got that can push in the scrum and carries hard in the loose - I also think he’s mean in the Johnson sense. He’s young and he is not as dynamic as he was at the end of last season. He needs some work around the fringes but maybe him alongside Chessum would be a better combo than him and Maro.

You’ve watched him more than me. But apart from one good run in the lead up to Underhill’s try I’m not sure I noticed him unless he was getting run over or around.

Itoje may have been ineffective but at least you couldn’t miss him being ineffective

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Dodge

Re that fringe defence, there was an interesting take on the Rugby Pod. Basically that there were a few times normally good fringe defenders got found out and that was not coincidence. The system or maybe the change in defence coach is more likely the issue. Andy Foode made a good point about Joe El Abd was coach of Oyannax who were 16th out of 18 in Div2 of the French league. Is that good enough to warrant promotion to England coach?

No, it’s not. The appointment is mental and a reflection that serious coaches don’t want to work with Borthwick.

@Dodge said in England vs Springboks:

@Catogrande said in England vs Springboks:

@Dodge

Re that fringe defence, there was an interesting take on the Rugby Pod. Basically that there were a few times normally good fringe defenders got found out and that was not coincidence. The system or maybe the change in defence coach is more likely the issue. Andy Foode made a good point about Joe El Abd was coach of Oyannax who were 16th out of 18 in Div2 of the French league. Is that good enough to warrant promotion to England coach?

No, it’s not. The appointment is mental and a reflection that serious coaches don’t want to work with Borthwick.

Yeah, he was coaching the equivalent of Cambridge.

Cambridge for Christ’s sake.

What’s crazy is that El-abd and Borthwick were roommates at varsity and Borthwick was an usher at old mate’s wedding.

Sure that had no bearing on Borthwick appointing a guy who couldn’t plug the gaping holes around the ruck before meeting SA. That should’ve been priority 1 given the opponent and that the problem was highlighted by AB exploitation and further underlined when the Wobs found the space just as inviting a week later.

Still, systemic problems aren’t the reason guys like Genge missed regulation tackles or The Scrum Anchor dawdled with almost deliberate disinterest into the defensive line.

Speaking of Peyper, are there any other international teams that have a ref sitting in the coaches box?

@Bovidae France have Jerome Garces in their coaching team as a "discipline and refereeing advisor"

@stodders was he appointed after or before their Argentine tour?

Nigel is working with Wales

@OomPB he’s been there since before RWC2023