@Dan54 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Canes4life , mate I wouldn't mind seeing Vaa'i stay at 6, start Pat T at lock, and see how Ardie goes back at 8, and start with Kirifi. Leave Finau as bench player, though would be happy to see Jacobson on bench too . Backline, I not sure about, but if they want Jordan back at 15 would look at Nawara on right wing, and would maybe look at Clarke on left, we need to get better under high ball, we were poor on Saturday.
Makes sense to me Dan.
Ardie did a lot of linking and continuity work I thought. He isn't a typical 7 but for people on here to say he was "shit", well, that wasn't my take on his game.
The forward I really thought we were missing was a 2024-level Sititi.
There’s quite a few changes in that lineup from a positional stance and therefore would require more of change than I think is necessary from the first test.
I’m more inclined for this series to make a direct swap (ala CLW for Sititi) than shoehorn guys that weren’t the original option.
De Groot
Taylor
Newell
Tuipoluto (in for Scooter if injured)
Holland
Va'ai
Savea (C)
Lio-Willie
Roigard
Barrett
Ioane
Barrett
Proctor
Narawa or Clarke (in for Reece)
Jordan
Taukei'aho
Norris
Tosi
Finau
Kirifi
Ratima
McKenzie
Tupaea
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Canes4life , mate I wouldn't mind seeing Vaa'i stay at 6, start Pat T at lock, and see how Ardie goes back at 8, and start with Kirifi. Leave Finau as bench player, though would be happy to see Jacobson on bench too .
That would be an utter fucking disaster.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Canes4life , mate I wouldn't mind seeing Vaa'i stay at 6, start Pat T at lock, and see how Ardie goes back at 8, and start with Kirifi. Leave Finau as bench player, though would be happy to see Jacobson on bench too .
That would be an utter fucking disaster.
Agree, we can't have both on the field at the same time. Kirifi was getting bounced back like a winger when he was carrying.
Just have both covering seven, and get a big body playing eight.
I don't see the point in playing Finau off the bench, yes he played there a bit this year, but if we want to see if he's our Kaino-like (acknowledging no one will ever be completely that level) then he has to start.
It is completely weird to pick a 6 in a squad, the only true blue 6, and then play him off the bench.
@Nepia said in All Blacks v France 2:
I don't see the point in playing Finau off the bench, yes he played there a bit this year, but if we want to see if he's our Kaino-like (acknowledging no one will ever be completely that level) then he has to start.
It is completely weird to pick a 6 in a squad, the only true blue 6, and then play him off the bench.
They have a bunch of pieces that don't quite fit. Or they can't make them fit yet
Kirifi's size has always counted against him, and that was pretty evident when he came on. He's an effective jackler as his short stature makes him difficult to move, but when it comes to the collisions he'll get smacked around at test level. It's also why players like Riccitelli have struggled to make the ABs, as @Chris-B has often talked about on here, size matters at the top level and that factors into the selection equation. Often players that have looked great at Super level have struggled with the physicality the next level up.
Not saying Kirifi should be discarded, he's really come of age as a player and if used right he could have an impact off the bench, but I can't see him as our starting 7 against the top teams.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France 2:
Kirifi's size has always counted against him, and that was pretty evident when he came on. He's an effective jackler as his short stature makes him difficult to move, but when it comes to the collisions he'll get smacked around at test level. It's also why players like Riccitelli have struggled to make the ABs, as @Chris-B has often talked about on here, size matters at the top level at that factors into the selection equation. Often players that have looked great at Super level have struggled with the physicality the next level up.
Not saying Kirifi should be discarded, he's really come of age as a player and if used right he could have an impact off the bench, but I can't see him as our starting 7 against the top teams.
You can definitely get away with a small 7 if it's a really well-defined role and you have other loosies supplying excess size and power. We have neither.
Having said that, I'm still pleased to see him there. Rewarding form is good, and he has been very good this year. It also shows Robertson is actually looking to achieve something other than injury cover with his bench, which was such a weakness for us last year.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Canes4life , mate I wouldn't mind seeing Vaa'i stay at 6, start Pat T at lock, and see how Ardie goes back at 8, and start with Kirifi. Leave Finau as bench player, though would be happy to see Jacobson on bench too .
That would be an utter fucking disaster.
There is little difference between Kirifi, Savea and Finau compared to Savea, Lio Willie, and Tupou. Both two small guys with one big guy. I don't like either of those combos except as a stop gap.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France 2:
Ardie did a lot of linking and continuity work I thought. He isn't a typical 7 but for people on here to say he was "shit", well, that wasn't my take on his game.
The forward I really thought we were missing was a 2024-level Sititi.
I don't think he was shit but he was certainly instrumental in that Woki try. Clean break happens on his tackle and then Woki smashes through him like nothing on the try line. He looked kinda tired I thought.
Too many small guys in the loose forwards will wear them down.
@george33 said in All Blacks v France 2:
I've got a Savea, Papalili, Jacobson loose forward trio 2nd test starting providing Jacobson gets the all clear.Finau bench
Well ... that would be unexpected
@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Canes4life , mate I wouldn't mind seeing Vaa'i stay at 6, start Pat T at lock, and see how Ardie goes back at 8, and start with Kirifi. Leave Finau as bench player, though would be happy to see Jacobson on bench too .
That would be an utter fucking disaster.
There is little difference between Kirifi, Savea and Finau compared to Savea, Lio Willie, and Tupou. Both two small guys with one big guy. I don't like either of those combos except as a stop gap.
Left the Wallablies and playing for the ABs now ? Interesting
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Canes4life , mate I wouldn't mind seeing Vaa'i stay at 6, start Pat T at lock, and see how Ardie goes back at 8, and start with Kirifi. Leave Finau as bench player, though would be happy to see Jacobson on bench too .
That would be an utter fucking disaster.
There is little difference between Kirifi, Savea and Finau compared to Savea, Lio Willie, and Tupou. Both two small guys with one big guy. I don't like either of those combos except as a stop gap.
Left the Wallablies and playing for the ABs now ? Interesting
Vaai vood you say such a thing
@booboo said in All Blacks v France 2:
Re small 7s ...
Two recent that went/go ok are Kwagga and Michael Hoopah!
Great example, I'm a Kwagga fan! But he has another skill apparently:
Not sure Hoopah is such a great example as he was a very good 7 but he could be manhandled because of size. OTOH I doubt George Smith was much bigger if at all but I don't remember him being manhandled very often.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France 2:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France 2:
Re small 7s ...
Two recent that went/go ok are Kwagga and Michael Hoopah!
Great example, I'm a Kwagga fan! But he has another skill apparently:
Not sure Hoopah is such a great example as he was a very good 7 but he could be manhandled because of size. OTOH I doubt George Smith was much bigger if at all but I don't remember him being manhandled very often.
Players were generally smaller during George Smith's era however he played with Toutai Kefu and Owen Finegan so there was a good balance. I think Smith would be a bit bigger and physically stronger than Hooper. Kwaga Smith is immensely strong for his size.
@booboo said in All Blacks v France 2:
Re small 7s ...
Two recent that went/go ok are Kwagga and Michael Hoopah!
Tizzano is also smaller I think so give it time.
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
Love to start, DMac back to the bench to hopefully do his thing in the last 20/30.
Would've been interesting how much worse the kicking would have been with a back three that kick worse than half the loosies in the country.
I think Razors plan for DMAC is just that, because he will be expecting to bring Mounga back into the side next year, so DMAC can cover 10/15 from the bench
Bait.
Bones, stop talking shit
Well thought out, but
Why do you think that is bait?
Seems pretty that Robertson will put Mounga back at 10 if he comes back to Nz.
Dmac providing the impact from the bench and covering 10/15
Positive thought - we are always better (marginally?) in T2 of the year
Negative thought - if George’s back row oil is on the money, it suggests coaches are keep to shake things up and take away whatever continuity we might have
Personally I’d have gone for minimal changes to the starting 15, only those injury forced.
Proctor gets another shot, straight swap of Reece for whoever you guys reckon had the Super form (Narawa?). Rieko stays on the wing.
I can even live with BB staying at 10 and DMac on the bench.
But not doesn’t sound like it’ll be anything like this
@Kiwiwomble that's what I'd go for definitely not the inside word.
Will see if I can get any oil next day or so.
Scott Barrett expected to miss Test 2.
Make-up of the second and back rows might be determined by Jacobson's availability. If he's still out then you'd think Tuipulotu would come in for Barrett in a straight swap. If he's fit then maybe Vaa'i shifts back to lock and Jacobson comes in at 6. Finau obviously an option at 6 too if Vaa'i shifts.
Holland, Vaa'i, Finau, Savea, Jacobson would probably be my preferred quintet with Tuipulotu and CLW on the bench.
There’s also a slim chance that Tuipulotu comes in for Barrett and starts, Vai’i stays at 6 and Ah Koi is used off the bench in jersey 19, he has been in camp as injury cover the whole time. Would be between Finau or Kirifi who drops out then. Slim chance, but still another option they could use is Jacobson isn’t fit.
Not saying that’s what I would do, just putting it out there that it’s an option they have available
That's an interesting idea. Why do you think Finau would drop out for Ah Kuoi who is only there for injury cover?
From what I've seen of him Ah Kuoi has some motor but he hasn't played 6 for the Chiefs for several years?
@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
That's an interesting idea. Why do you think Finau would drop out for Ah Kuoi who is only there for injury cover?
Because Ah Kuoi would be lock cover(for the injured lock S.Barrett) from the bench which would mean it’s between Finau and Kirifi from last week who would miss out in jersey 20.
Again, I’m not saying it’s something i would do or they would do. It’s just another option they have
Unless he plays like a game-winning superstar, a specialist 7 like Kirifi is a real luxury on the bench, isn't he?!
He played the whole season there for the Steams in 2022 and 2023.
He's a high workrate player. Just everywhere in third gear like Blackadder but rarely gets out of third gear. Has a bit more impact and is a bit bigger body but I think if you're looking at him at 6 you might as well go Blackadder.
@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
He played the whole season there for the Steams in 2022 and 2023.
He's a high workrate player. Just everywhere in third gear like Blackadder but rarely gets out of third gear. Has a bit more impact and is a bit bigger body but I think if you're looking at him at 6 you might as well go Blackadder.
should be a better lineout option though.
I don't think you need lock cover on the bench if Holland, Tuipulotu, and Vaa'i are in the starting line up.
There's a chance that Vaa'i will be out too and we'll get to see Ah Kuoi anyway I guess.
If Vaa'i is ok to play I'd actually give him a rest on the bench and start FInau. I'd like to see how Finau goes starting against France.
@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
I don't think you need lock cover on the bench if Holland, Tuipulotu, and Vaa'i are in the starting line up.
There's a chance that Vaa'i will be out too and we'll get to see Ah Kuoi anyway I guess.
Yeah probably not. My point though is that it’s an option they have. Nice options across the board
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France 2:
From what I've seen of him Ah Kuoi has some motor but he hasn't played 6 for the Chiefs for several years?
One start at 6 that I can remember last year when it was more a case of selecting the fit players at the time. McMillan had talked up using Ah Kuoi at 6 a few years back but it has never eventuated due to the loose forward options. He is mobile enough though and gives you another ball-carrier.
