All Blacks v Springboks I

kpkanz11 months ago

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Rieko has easily been a better centre than what we have seen from Proctor so far at test level - and also comfortably better than ALB over the last four years at test level.

Proctor and ALBs games just aren't translating at test level.

I agree that Rieko should be considered as a 13 that covers wing. He's never been strong under the high ball.

People get over excited about Super form. Super Rugby is no longer the premier club competition.

Reece is another example of a player who has been great in Super Rugby and mediocre at test level.

Rieko isn't even performing at Super Rugby level, and our form wingers are Carter/Narawa from Super, not Reece.

And I also think you have it backwards, our issue is NOT choosing form players from Super Rugby.

Australia did with Wright and Jorgenson who were performing at Super level and they just destroyed the best of the North a month ago and the Springboks at home.

#104

ACT Crusader11 months ago

#104

@kpkanz Reece was excellent during the super season. But his game is not helping us win the ball so he should be replaced for Narawa for this test. I like Narawa in the air.

#105

brodean11 months ago

#105

@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Rieko has easily been a better centre than what we have seen from Proctor so far at test level - and also comfortably better than ALB over the last four years at test level.

Proctor and ALBs games just aren't translating at test level.

I agree that Rieko should be considered as a 13 that covers wing. He's never been strong under the high ball.

People get over excited about Super form. Super Rugby is no longer the premier club competition.

Reece is another example of a player who has been great in Super Rugby and mediocre at test level.

Rieko isn't even performing at Super Rugby level, and our form wingers are Carter/Narawa from Super, not Reece.

And I also think you have it backwards, our issue is NOT choosing form players from Super Rugby.

Australia did with Wright and Jorgenson who were performing at Super level and they just destroyed the best of the North a month ago and the Springboks at home.

Rieko has undoubtedly performed better at center for the ABs than he has at Super Level in the previous two years. Proctor or ALB at test level have simply not been as good as Rieko at 13. Too many mistakes and too much ill discipline.

#106

brodean11 months ago

#106

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together

View embedded content

Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.

The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.

It also says a lot about these coaches.

They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.

There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.

But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.

He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.

Does need to know how to pass well though doesn't he.

See it as a close call between him and Proctor however.

Jesse Kriel passed zero times in the 2023 RWC final. The game has moved on from silky Bruce Robertson types.

#107

pakman11 months ago

#107

@pakman said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Posting here, although comments based on Pumas 2.

Three main areas of concern:

Aerial. We are holed below water line. Need AFL style coaching toot sweet;

Backline. Seemed impossible to run backline moves because forwards were constantly in the way. Can’t we just run some straight backline moves?
DMac created space whereas BB was shackled by Puma D.
Jordie seems clunky. Like to see miss passes straight to 13. Would have liked to see Tuapea get a run outside DMac at 12.
Taking Proctor off for Quinn seemed to solve nothing. Would have been better to push Jordie into back three and let Proctor have a run with Tuapea inside;

Loosies. As I feared, the formulaic selection was a failure. A balanced trio needs to encompass a fetcher, a ball slower, jumper, cleaner, smasher, and explosive runner. To a degree who does which isn’t so important. We ended up with no real fetcher, no ball slower and no smasher. The second Puma try highlighted the need for a 6 who’s used to defending off scrums.
In fact when Sititi came on it would have been better if Vaa’i had gone to lock, perhaps replacing Scooter, and Parker to six.
I think TWM should treat Sititi and Savea as 8s, and only have one on field at a time, Parker and Finau as 6s and Kirifi and Jacobson as 7s, Lakai seems to genuinely cover 7 and 8, and would have been a better bet than RD at 7.

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rugbypass.com

#108

KiwiMurph11 months ago

#108

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together

View embedded content

Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.

The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.

It also says a lot about these coaches.

They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.

There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.

But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.

He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.

He didn't move to centre until 2020 - where was the development of a high ball game in 2018 or 2019 following his breakout 2017 season? Where is any evidence he has worked on his high ball game in the last 2 months ? As I state above - this is also on the coaches when switching him back to wing this year - they've switched a guy back there who doesn't have high ball skills and their plan is to have Will Jordan covering it.

As for a kicking game this also would have been beneficial to him as a winger before he switched to midfield - Rieko would often be in the back field as cover with no kicking option to go to or not have a kick ahead option when the opportinity arose when he was put into space - not to mention another kicking option in the backline would always be an asset to his team and a string to his bow. Effectively it would have made him less one dimensional. Nonu didn't 'need' a kicking game either but he developed an excellent one over time. Heck even at a franchise level Lam in his first proper season at 12 this year displayed development of a kicking game.

#109

Billy Webb11 months ago

#109

Holy smokes people. So much negativity and gnashing of teeth by the AB fans.
The Boks have hardly looked stellar in either of their games so far.
Given this is an away test, at the fortress Eden Park, the Boks are underdogs by some distance.
We have so many areas of the game to fix to get back to something you all seem to fear, I think you are worrying way too much.

Not to say the Boks can't win. But if I got 50:50 odds on this game, I would for sure put my money on the AB's. Way too many factors in the AB's favour for the Boks not to be the outsiders here.

EDIT: to be clear, I think the Boks have a shot. But it will take something better than we dished up the last 2 games.

#110

sparky11 months ago

#110

@Billy-Webb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Given this is an away test, at the fortress Eden Park, the Boks are underdogs by some distance.

Nice try, but based on the Buenos Aries game, a number of our chosen backs can't catch, pass or kick.

The Boks should win easily.

#111

Dan5411 months ago

#111

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Dan54 when Parsons was playing he always had some great analysis of games, players, was always good value.

Such a shame if these guys are being restrained on what they can and can't say now.

I not sure they are restrained, I just genuinely think they look at whole picture and go from there? It probably easier for us we watch game, see someone , decide we like them or not and then excuse them if we do, and rubbish them if we don't. A classic case is Christie, how many people when going crook about him mention he a ranga etc. See I thought he was one of our best backs on weekend. Same as BB, many will come up with he was best sometime ago, and suggest players like Love who has played 3 games at 10 etc. When we don't like players, we see them miss a tackle etc, and get stuck in, we don't look at any breakdown of defense system.
In saying that they could be same, and like us being easier on people they are mates with personally, as would I bet anyone on here. It's just something I have thougt about a bit lately, and the only way you will get people just looking for people to blame, and not look at whole thing is perhaps ONLY have pundits who have never had a relationship with any of the players?
So basically someone outside of the game completely.

#112

Dan5411 months ago

#112

Anyway it's been 3 days since the cock up on weekend, and this thread is for next test. I genuinely don't think there will be many changes, mainly because I not sure who else in the squad is the answer against the Boks. I would perhaps think a Kirifi for loose chasing loose ball, but not sure who for anyway. In backs perhaps a change on wings if Clarke right, or they decide to give Jordan a run at 14.
And I will be yelling and supporting them as I always do regardless (he says with a sigh lol)
But by geez there better not be any cards!!!!!!!!!!

#113

reprobate11 months ago

#113

MOTM polls vs boks last year (those over 10%):
Clarke, Vaai, Taylor, Jordie, Blackadder
Taylor, Vaai, Sititi, Cane

Which may suggest our best lock ought to be playing lock, we miss Clarke - who Razor left out at the start of the season when available - and we need some loosies who are going to hit attacking rucks. Not that we won those games, mind.

#114

Frank11 months ago

#114

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together

View embedded content

Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.

The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.

It also says a lot about these coaches.

They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.

There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.

But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.

He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.

Does need to know how to pass well though doesn't he.

See it as a close call between him and Proctor however.

Jesse Kriel passed zero times in the 2023 RWC final. The game has moved on from silky Bruce Robertson types.

LOL - I guess that makes his lack of skill development okay then.

#115

Victor Meldrew11 months ago

#115

@Billy-Webb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Given this is an away test, at the fortress Eden Park, the Boks are underdogs by some distance.

This is cause for optimism?

#116

booboo11 months ago

#116

So, who is not playing:

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allblacks.com

#117

ShaquilleOatmeal11 months ago

#117

@Billy-Webb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

The Boks have hardly looked stellar in either of their games so far.

I'm not a fan of the whole 'our team isn't playing well, but neither is the other team so that's okay' argument. Yes, keeping the Eden Park record intact is important but I don't want to watch two team play ordinary rugby against each other and, overall, I'm only concerned with how well the All Blacks are going, if they're improving and if they look like they're on track to being a World Cup contender.

#118

Mr Fish11 months ago

#118

@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

MOTM polls vs boks last year (those over 10%):
Clarke, Vaai, Taylor, Jordie, Blackadder
Taylor, Vaai, Sititi, Cane

Which may suggest our best lock ought to be playing lock, we miss Clarke - who Razor left out at the start of the season when available - and we need some loosies who are going to hit attacking rucks. Not that we won those games, mind.

Sorry when did Razor leave out Clarke?

#119

KiwiMurph11 months ago

#119

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

MOTM polls vs boks last year (those over 10%):
Clarke, Vaai, Taylor, Jordie, Blackadder
Taylor, Vaai, Sititi, Cane

Which may suggest our best lock ought to be playing lock, we miss Clarke - who Razor left out at the start of the season when available - and we need some loosies who are going to hit attacking rucks. Not that we won those games, mind.

Sorry when did Razor leave out Clarke?

Test 1 this year vs France in Dunedin.

Though he was set to start test 2 before getting injured in training

#120

akan00411 months ago

#120

Williams looked well short of match fitness when he came on and they aren't releasing him this weekend to play NPC. Great.

#121

taniwharugby11 months ago

#121

@akan004 yeah seems they want to protect these guys from injury while ignoring getting them match fit, whereas you'd think if you arent match fit you are more likely to pick up an injury?

#122

Chris11 months ago

#122

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@akan004 yeah seems they want to protect these guys from injury while ignoring getting them match fit, whereas you'd think if you arent match fit you are more likely to pick up an injury?

It also points to not many if any changes for the Boks test.

#123

KiwiMurph11 months ago

#123

@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

I not sure they are restrained, I just genuinely think they look at whole picture and go from there? It probably easier for us we watch game, see someone , decide we like them or not and then excuse them if we do, and rubbish them if we don't. A classic case is Christie, how many people when going crook about him mention he a ranga etc. See I thought he was one of our best backs on weekend. Same as BB, many will come up with he was best sometime ago, and suggest players like Love who has played 3 games at 10 etc. When we don't like players, we see them miss a tackle etc, and get stuck in, we don't look at any breakdown of defense system.

The thing is Dan - they don't look at the whole system in their comments. It's not just that they tend to talk up everyone, it's that they don't seem to critically analyse the ABs either. Without Roigard the ABs have a clear issue with tactical high and long kicking but they won't touch on it. Likewise the ABs restarts are easy fodder compared to the opposition - if it's not a short kickoff they have very little hangtime which helps the opposition to exit - whereas the ABs are having to take hanging restarts around their own 22 with chasers right in their face. They don't touch on it.

Where is the analysis of the backs? There is something fundamentally wrong with the backs currently - legitimately as bad as an AB backline has ever looked. As Dagg touched on - neither wing is adept under the high ball - that's not just on the players - that's on the coaches and selectors.

#124

SBW111 months ago

#124

An AFL coach would be a huge asset at the moment in regards to restarts and the aerial game.

#125

Canes4life11 months ago

#125

@booboo said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

At least the players I rate become All Blacks.

Iose awaiting the inevitable call up.

Iose isn’t someone that I’ve backed that hard, purely because we don’t need another small-ish 8 at test level. Good Super Rugby player. Higgins for that matter… watch out when he gets fit.

#126

booboo11 months ago

#126

@SBW1 said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

An AFL coach would be a huge asset at the moment in regards to restarts and the aerial game.

Mick Byrne worked in the day.

#127

mariner4life11 months ago

#127

it doesn't even have to be a fucking AFL coach, look at what your average NRL winger can do on either side of a ball.

Actually Marky Mark is shit under the high ball so maybe rugby backs ignore basic skills far too much

#128

antipodean11 months ago

#128

@SBW1 said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

A~~n AFL~~ coach would be a huge asset at the moment ~~in regards to restarts and the aerial game~~.

Fixed.

#129

KiwiMurph11 months ago

#129

@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

it doesn't even have to be a fucking AFL coach, look at what your average NRL winger can do on either side of a ball.

Actually Marky Mark is shit under the high ball so maybe rugby backs ignore basic skills far too much

I thought the Wallabies were impressive under the high ball vs the Boks last week. Specifically Corey Toole. It wasn't the high ball that cost them the game - in fact it put them in position to win it.

Whatever they are doing seems to be working.

#130

reprobate11 months ago

#130

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

MOTM polls vs boks last year (those over 10%):
Clarke, Vaai, Taylor, Jordie, Blackadder
Taylor, Vaai, Sititi, Cane

Which may suggest our best lock ought to be playing lock, we miss Clarke - who Razor left out at the start of the season when available - and we need some loosies who are going to hit attacking rucks. Not that we won those games, mind.

Sorry when did Razor leave out Clarke?

Test 1 this year vs France in Dunedin.

Though he was set to start test 2 before getting injured in training

Reece was out concussed for test #2... Clarke was probably only selected for that one due to injury.

#131

taniwharugby11 months ago

#131

@KiwiMurph practising?

#132

brodean11 months ago

#132

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together

View embedded content

Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.

The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.

It also says a lot about these coaches.

They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.

There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.

But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.

He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.

He didn't move to centre until 2020 - where was the development of a high ball game in 2018 or 2019 following his breakout 2017 season? Where is any evidence he has worked on his high ball game in the last 2 months ? As I state above - this is also on the coaches when switching him back to wing this year - they've switched a guy back there who doesn't have high ball skills and their plan is to have Will Jordan covering it.

As for a kicking game this also would have been beneficial to him as a winger before he switched to midfield - Rieko would often be in the back field as cover with no kicking option to go to or not have a kick ahead option when the opportinity arose when he was put into space - not to mention another kicking option in the backline would always be an asset to his team and a string to his bow. Effectively it would have made him less one dimensional. Nonu didn't 'need' a kicking game either but he developed an excellent one over time. Heck even at a franchise level Lam in his first proper season at 12 this year displayed development of a kicking game.

Nonu played at 12 where a kicking game is required

Conrad Smith kicked very rarely.

Rieko Ioane has only had one full season on the wing for the Blues where the players develop their skills. The great majority of his Blues career was spent in the midfield and at center when the team went from chronic cellar dwellers to winning a SRT title, an SRP title and multiple semi finals.

#133

brodean11 months ago

#133

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together

View embedded content

Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.

The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.

It also says a lot about these coaches.

They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.

There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.

But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.

He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.

Does need to know how to pass well though doesn't he.

See it as a close call between him and Proctor however.

Jesse Kriel passed zero times in the 2023 RWC final. The game has moved on from silky Bruce Robertson types.

LOL - I guess that makes his lack of skill development okay then.

His passing game at centre has good enough for the Blues to win a championship and for the ABs to go within 1 point of winning an RWC final with 14 men. You could in no way suggest it was Ioane that stopped us from winning that RWC final. Cane and Frizell were carded. Mo'unga and JB missed kicks.

#134

OomPB11 months ago

#134

Fassi and Moodie is tall and very good aerial players. Kolbey small but his chasing is excellent. Pollard excellent kicker but not our 9s. Thats a big problem.

#135

reprobate11 months ago

#135

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together

View embedded content

Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.

The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.

It also says a lot about these coaches.

They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.

There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.

But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.

He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.

Does need to know how to pass well though doesn't he.

See it as a close call between him and Proctor however.

Jesse Kriel passed zero times in the 2023 RWC final. The game has moved on from silky Bruce Robertson types.

LOL - I guess that makes his lack of skill development okay then.

His passing game at centre has good enough for the Blues to win a championship and for the ABs to go within 1 point of winning an RWC final with 14 men. You could in no way suggest it was Ioane that stopped us from winning that RWC final. Cane and Frizell were carded. Mo'unga and JB missed kicks.

You could argue that the Blues won that championship without the outside backs or Rieko doing much other than tackling. Their key differences were having Ioane and Hoskins in top form, and no BB.

#136

brodean11 months ago

#136

@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together

View embedded content

Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.

The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.

It also says a lot about these coaches.

They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.

There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.

But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.

He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.

Does need to know how to pass well though doesn't he.

See it as a close call between him and Proctor however.

Jesse Kriel passed zero times in the 2023 RWC final. The game has moved on from silky Bruce Robertson types.

LOL - I guess that makes his lack of skill development okay then.

His passing game at centre has good enough for the Blues to win a championship and for the ABs to go within 1 point of winning an RWC final with 14 men. You could in no way suggest it was Ioane that stopped us from winning that RWC final. Cane and Frizell were carded. Mo'unga and JB missed kicks.

You could argue that the Blues won that championship without the outside backs or Rieko doing much other than tackling. Their key differences were having Ioane and Hoskins in top form, and no BB.

Yes you could argue that but as they say defence wins championships and the Blues defence has been near the best the last two years with Rieko as the preferred 13.

Defence is something Proctor seems to be struggling with at test level and I would argue that at test level in tight games defence is more important than passing game at 13.

People have been talking about Proctor as some kind of defensive leader but with his passing game and defensive leadership the Pumas made 7 line breaks to our 1 in the last game.

#137

Frank11 months ago

#137

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Defence is something Proctor seems to be struggling with at test level and I would argue that at test level in tight games defence is more important than passing game at 13.

Agree Rieko could be better than Proctor at test level at this point. And you could be right it is more important than distribtuion.

But rather than trying to pretend distribution doesn't matter for a 13, wouldn't it be nice to have a center who could do both or had developed both.

Damn, this is the All Blacks.

#138

brodean11 months ago

#138

@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Defence is something Proctor seems to be struggling with at test level and I would argue that at test level in tight games defence is more important than passing game at 13.

Agree Rieko could be better than Proctor at test level at this point. And you could be right it is more important than distribtuion.

But rather than trying to pretend distribution doesn't matter for a 13, wouldn't it be nice to have a center who could do both or had developed both.

Damn, this is the All Blacks.

Im not pretending it doesn't matter. We take the best option we have on balance until something better comes along. We just don't have any proven, complete test center at the moment.

#139

KiwiMurph11 months ago

#139

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together

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Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.

The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.

It also says a lot about these coaches.

They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.

There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.

But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.

He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.

He didn't move to centre until 2020 - where was the development of a high ball game in 2018 or 2019 following his breakout 2017 season? Where is any evidence he has worked on his high ball game in the last 2 months ? As I state above - this is also on the coaches when switching him back to wing this year - they've switched a guy back there who doesn't have high ball skills and their plan is to have Will Jordan covering it.

As for a kicking game this also would have been beneficial to him as a winger before he switched to midfield - Rieko would often be in the back field as cover with no kicking option to go to or not have a kick ahead option when the opportinity arose when he was put into space - not to mention another kicking option in the backline would always be an asset to his team and a string to his bow. Effectively it would have made him less one dimensional. Nonu didn't 'need' a kicking game either but he developed an excellent one over time. Heck even at a franchise level Lam in his first proper season at 12 this year displayed development of a kicking game.

Nonu played at 12 where a kicking game is required

Conrad Smith kicked very rarely.

Rieko Ioane has only had one full season on the wing for the Blues where the players develop their skills. The great majority of his Blues career was spent in the midfield and at center when the team went from chronic cellar dwellers to winning a SRT title, an SRP title and multiple semi finals.

Rieko Ioane was pretty much exclusively a left winger only for the ABs for three straight seasons 2017 - 2019, nearly 25 tests on the left wing with a handful of appearances from the bench - he had plenty of time to develop his skills under the high ball. Compare that with someone like Richard Kahui who only had one test start on the wing (in 2008) before the RWC - and in that RWC he showed real commitment under the high ball and with his kick chase.

Again - this isn't exclusively a Rieko thing - how has Sevu Reece not improved under the high ball in all his time playing wing - and the coaches - how they do they stick two poor players under the high ball on the wing? There's fault all around.

#140

taniwharugby11 months ago

#140

@KiwiMurph i wonder if the Boks will kick to us?

#141

reprobate11 months ago

#141

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:

@KiwiMurph i wonder if the Boks will kick to us?

Well it's not like we didn't also miss an absolute shitload of tackles... making it a tough choice for them to run it or kick it.
Bit of a masterstroke really, they won't know what to do.

#142

Bovidae11 months ago

#142

SA are now using their locks to contest box kicks, so no chance the ABs win that battle.