@Billy-Webb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Given this is an away test, at the fortress Eden Park, the Boks are underdogs by some distance.
This is cause for optimism?
All Blacks
Match thread
Springboks I
So, who is not playing:
@Billy-Webb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
The Boks have hardly looked stellar in either of their games so far.
I'm not a fan of the whole 'our team isn't playing well, but neither is the other team so that's okay' argument. Yes, keeping the Eden Park record intact is important but I don't want to watch two team play ordinary rugby against each other and, overall, I'm only concerned with how well the All Blacks are going, if they're improving and if they look like they're on track to being a World Cup contender.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
MOTM polls vs boks last year (those over 10%):
Clarke, Vaai, Taylor, Jordie, Blackadder
Taylor, Vaai, Sititi, CaneWhich may suggest our best lock ought to be playing lock, we miss Clarke - who Razor left out at the start of the season when available - and we need some loosies who are going to hit attacking rucks. Not that we won those games, mind.
Sorry when did Razor leave out Clarke?
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
MOTM polls vs boks last year (those over 10%):
Clarke, Vaai, Taylor, Jordie, Blackadder
Taylor, Vaai, Sititi, CaneWhich may suggest our best lock ought to be playing lock, we miss Clarke - who Razor left out at the start of the season when available - and we need some loosies who are going to hit attacking rucks. Not that we won those games, mind.
Sorry when did Razor leave out Clarke?
Test 1 this year vs France in Dunedin.
Though he was set to start test 2 before getting injured in training
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@akan004 yeah seems they want to protect these guys from injury while ignoring getting them match fit, whereas you'd think if you arent match fit you are more likely to pick up an injury?
It also points to not many if any changes for the Boks test.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
I not sure they are restrained, I just genuinely think they look at whole picture and go from there? It probably easier for us we watch game, see someone , decide we like them or not and then excuse them if we do, and rubbish them if we don't. A classic case is Christie, how many people when going crook about him mention he a ranga etc. See I thought he was one of our best backs on weekend. Same as BB, many will come up with he was best sometime ago, and suggest players like Love who has played 3 games at 10 etc. When we don't like players, we see them miss a tackle etc, and get stuck in, we don't look at any breakdown of defense system.
The thing is Dan - they don't look at the whole system in their comments. It's not just that they tend to talk up everyone, it's that they don't seem to critically analyse the ABs either. Without Roigard the ABs have a clear issue with tactical high and long kicking but they won't touch on it. Likewise the ABs restarts are easy fodder compared to the opposition - if it's not a short kickoff they have very little hangtime which helps the opposition to exit - whereas the ABs are having to take hanging restarts around their own 22 with chasers right in their face. They don't touch on it.
Where is the analysis of the backs? There is something fundamentally wrong with the backs currently - legitimately as bad as an AB backline has ever looked. As Dagg touched on - neither wing is adept under the high ball - that's not just on the players - that's on the coaches and selectors.
@booboo said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
At least the players I rate become All Blacks.
Iose awaiting the inevitable call up.
Iose isn’t someone that I’ve backed that hard, purely because we don’t need another small-ish 8 at test level. Good Super Rugby player. Higgins for that matter… watch out when he gets fit. 
@SBW1 said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
An AFL coach would be a huge asset at the moment in regards to restarts and the aerial game.
Mick Byrne worked in the day.
it doesn't even have to be a fucking AFL coach, look at what your average NRL winger can do on either side of a ball.
Actually Marky Mark is shit under the high ball so maybe rugby backs ignore basic skills far too much
@SBW1 said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
A
n AFLcoach would be a huge asset at the momentin regards to restarts and the aerial game.
Fixed.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
it doesn't even have to be a fucking AFL coach, look at what your average NRL winger can do on either side of a ball.
Actually Marky Mark is shit under the high ball so maybe rugby backs ignore basic skills far too much
I thought the Wallabies were impressive under the high ball vs the Boks last week. Specifically Corey Toole. It wasn't the high ball that cost them the game - in fact it put them in position to win it.
Whatever they are doing seems to be working.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
MOTM polls vs boks last year (those over 10%):
Clarke, Vaai, Taylor, Jordie, Blackadder
Taylor, Vaai, Sititi, CaneWhich may suggest our best lock ought to be playing lock, we miss Clarke - who Razor left out at the start of the season when available - and we need some loosies who are going to hit attacking rucks. Not that we won those games, mind.
Sorry when did Razor leave out Clarke?
Test 1 this year vs France in Dunedin.
Though he was set to start test 2 before getting injured in training
Reece was out concussed for test #2... Clarke was probably only selected for that one due to injury.
@KiwiMurph practising?
Fassi and Moodie is tall and very good aerial players. Kolbey small but his chasing is excellent. Pollard excellent kicker but not our 9s. Thats a big problem.
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Defence is something Proctor seems to be struggling with at test level and I would argue that at test level in tight games defence is more important than passing game at 13.
Agree Rieko could be better than Proctor at test level at this point. And you could be right it is more important than distribtuion.
But rather than trying to pretend distribution doesn't matter for a 13, wouldn't it be nice to have a center who could do both or had developed both.
Damn, this is the All Blacks.
@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Defence is something Proctor seems to be struggling with at test level and I would argue that at test level in tight games defence is more important than passing game at 13.
Agree Rieko could be better than Proctor at test level at this point. And you could be right it is more important than distribtuion.
But rather than trying to pretend distribution doesn't matter for a 13, wouldn't it be nice to have a center who could do both or had developed both.
Damn, this is the All Blacks.
Im not pretending it doesn't matter. We take the best option we have on balance until something better comes along. We just don't have any proven, complete test center at the moment.
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together
Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.
The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.
It also says a lot about these coaches.
They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.
There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.
But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.
He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.
He didn't move to centre until 2020 - where was the development of a high ball game in 2018 or 2019 following his breakout 2017 season? Where is any evidence he has worked on his high ball game in the last 2 months ? As I state above - this is also on the coaches when switching him back to wing this year - they've switched a guy back there who doesn't have high ball skills and their plan is to have Will Jordan covering it.
As for a kicking game this also would have been beneficial to him as a winger before he switched to midfield - Rieko would often be in the back field as cover with no kicking option to go to or not have a kick ahead option when the opportinity arose when he was put into space - not to mention another kicking option in the backline would always be an asset to his team and a string to his bow. Effectively it would have made him less one dimensional. Nonu didn't 'need' a kicking game either but he developed an excellent one over time. Heck even at a franchise level Lam in his first proper season at 12 this year displayed development of a kicking game.
Nonu played at 12 where a kicking game is required
Conrad Smith kicked very rarely.
Rieko Ioane has only had one full season on the wing for the Blues where the players develop their skills. The great majority of his Blues career was spent in the midfield and at center when the team went from chronic cellar dwellers to winning a SRT title, an SRP title and multiple semi finals.
Rieko Ioane was pretty much exclusively a left winger only for the ABs for three straight seasons 2017 - 2019, nearly 25 tests on the left wing with a handful of appearances from the bench - he had plenty of time to develop his skills under the high ball. Compare that with someone like Richard Kahui who only had one test start on the wing (in 2008) before the RWC - and in that RWC he showed real commitment under the high ball and with his kick chase.
Again - this isn't exclusively a Rieko thing - how has Sevu Reece not improved under the high ball in all his time playing wing - and the coaches - how they do they stick two poor players under the high ball on the wing? There's fault all around.
@KiwiMurph i wonder if the Boks will kick to us?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph i wonder if the Boks will kick to us?
Well it's not like we didn't also miss an absolute shitload of tackles... making it a tough choice for them to run it or kick it.
Bit of a masterstroke really, they won't know what to do.
Would be great to have some insight from the coaches as to the reluctance to try a 6-2 bench. We seem to have ideal cattle right now with our versatile backs to give it a go, but it seems off the table. Has anyone heard it being discussed by anyone in the setup?
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together
Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.
The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.
It also says a lot about these coaches.
They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.
There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.
But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.
He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.
It is a bit mad that we are criticising a guy who played centre for the last 5 years for not developing strength under the high-ball while the guys who have been playing wing and fullback throughout that time and still do seem to be escaping criticism for also being complete numpties under the high ball.
@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together
Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.
The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.
It also says a lot about these coaches.
They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.
There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.
But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.
He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.
Does need to know how to pass well though doesn't he.
See it as a close call between him and Proctor however.
He passes just fine - not perfect, but fine. The issue he has is the same one that Proctor is facing now - a lack of time and space with which to use the ball. This is primarily the result of how this and the last regime structured their backline attack and also the two blokes inside him who can’t pass for shit either.
I don’t know if there is a centre in NZ who could, under those conditions, throw the kind of perfectly timed flat spiral passes to wide wingers and fullbacks that people seem to be expecting here - not Rieko and not Proctor either.
As for the comment earlier about Rieko tucking and ducking, that is totally fair and quite frustrating. But, I think it is also fair to suggest that this is something he has developed to get himself over the gain line and not get smashed by his opposing centres when playing so flat and flat footed as part of our backline structure.
Reluctantly adding to the Rieko bash here, because I like the guy as player and it saddens me the way things are at the moment, but there was one moment on the weekend that summed up where is at. It was when the Argies fucked up a pass and the ball was bouncing along the ground. Rieko was there, he bent over to pick it up and spilled the ball forward. Opportunity missed. Rieko of old, or someone else on top of their game, would have either scooped the ball up and accelerated at the gap, or instinctively toed the ball on creating a kick chase situation. I just knew as I watched it unfold, that the chance would be blown.
For what it's worth, I can't imagine any AB back would have made gold out of that situation on the weekend. That's how down on mojo they are as a unit.
@Crazy-Horse a good observation, it does feel like the backline do not have confidence that they can implement whatever gameplan they are being asked to do, and it's impacting their confidence across the board which can lead to missed opportunities like that.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Will Jordan passed the ball last week though. You pessimistic bunch.
we also look very staunch on the bus on the way in to the stadium.
@junior said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
This is primarily the result of how this and the last regime structured their backline attack and also the two blokes inside him who can’t pass for shit either.
Yeah, his lack of distribution skill is the fault of every coach and every player that has ever played inside him. Nothing to do with him at all............