In a strange way, Marcus Smith coming on so early really helped England. His double pivot with George Ford was extremely effective.

Steve Borthwick's men showed a lot of resolve coming back from 12-0 down yesterday. Lesser England sides have buckled in the past after seeing the All Blacks play ten minutes of dominant rugby.

I think this is the most complete England side since the 2003 one in terms of offering threat and balance across the park. If there's a genuine weak link it's Itoje's on-field leadership and in the second row without George Martin.

I suspect this England team will go on and achieve a Grand Slam of their own in the spring, although France in Paris might trip them up. It will be interesting to see how they go against a side playing well and with an intelligent First Five rather than the shambles they played against yesterday.

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

Around 32:30 we nearly scored in the corner, then meekly allowed England to drive us off the ball. See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection. They never even looked interested in the follow-up ruck after LF was tackled.

View image

View image

View image

View image

View image

View image

The much maligned Sam Cane at his peak would have cleaned someone out there.

Every retard in New Zealand went on and on about how much better a number seven Savea was during super rugby. It was always obvious that he does not have the game for test rugby at open side. Papalii is vastly more suited to the role. Just an incredibly low IQ selection from a moron coach.

@Tim Dalton Papalii, if fit, is our player best suited to being a Test Open Side.

I'm happy with Ardie Savea and Peter Lakai as backup, although both play better at 8. Kirifi is too small to be effective against top test sides.

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

Every retard in New Zealand went on and on about how much better a number seven Savea was during super rugby. It was always obvious that he does not have the game for test rugby at open side. Papalii is vastly more suited to the role. Just an incredibly low IQ selection from a moron coach.

Lets be honest too, he got away with blue murder at breakdown time during super rugby due to who he was. The home fixtures against the Highlanders and Blues being prime examples where he was getting rewarded at breakdown multiple times when he shouldn't have to the point where he was virtually coming in from the oppositions side of the ruck. It made for a feel good story at the time though i guess.

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

And most sane people knew this would happen too.

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

He and BB are holding our team hostage right now

@African-Monkey Yeah. Been thinking about Cane. He always answered the bell.

@BerniesCorner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Lakai has been superb also

Rewatched the game - yes I know I’d usually rather poke my eyes out than rewatch an AB test loss - but wanted to see if my feeling of how we used Lakai or better yet how things just played out was correct.

We used him far too much. This is not a slight on Peter for his high work rate and usage, but he had a disproportionate number of carries because either he had got back into the line quicker or he was just there. It was unusual for how we have used other forward ball carriers throughout the year, even with the mountain of possession we had from England set piece losses and the ball we generated from the ruck.

I think it goes without saying that Lakai would’ve been far more effective if he did not have to shoulder so many carries.

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@BerniesCorner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Lakai has been superb also

Rewatched the game - yes I know I’d usually rather poke my eyes out than rewatch an AB test loss - but wanted to see if my feeling of how we used Lakai or better yet how things just played out was correct.

We used him far too much. This is not a slight on Peter for his high work rate and usage, but he had a disproportionate number of carries because either he had got back into the line quicker or he was just there. It was unusual for how we have used other forward ball carriers throughout the year, even with the mountain of possession we had from England set piece losses and the ball we generated from the ruck.

I think it goes without saying that Lakai would’ve been far more effective if he did not have to shoulder so many carries.

Agreed. He is a powerful guy for his size but he is not a big guy.

Use his work rate and industry at 7

@DaGrubster I thought that Savea's best performance was against Argentina when he played 8. More balanced trio.

@Devon-Kiwi said in England Vs All Blacks:

The English are the worst team in World Rugby to lose to and we did it so well!

Wales says hold my beer

@BerniesCorner said in England Vs All Blacks:

What was the yellow for

All the explanations I saw were perfectly cogent in respect of a penalty, but no rationale at all put forward for a yellow card offence. Austin Healy stated that no clean line break so just penalty.

Inexperienced referee spoils game again, although most of home crowd lapped it up.

Meanwhile, multiple dummy runners before Underhill try were worthy of a TMO look for obstruction, but none forthcoming.

Was working all-day yesterday so didn't see this live.

But thankfully watched it at 1am this morning not knowing the result.

Then read back this thread after watching it.

Lots of the comments aged like milk

YC was absolute bullshit, but like Dodge said England made use of their one man superiority far better and that was more telling than the card itself.

I was gobsmacked when Roigard went off. Any word? Serious injury.

England are inches from unleashing big, big wins against anyone.

NZ as everyone has said need a major overhaul.

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

Scott Barrett on the yellow card "I think its fair".

Razor on the yellow card "its cynical isnt it".

You pair of absolute fucking twats.

Fucking cowards

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

Lineout was the only area we got smashed, but every time it didn’t seem to result in much as we made metres in defence and attack one out. It’s genuinely weird, I’m not celebrating it, just gobsmacked

A team with more brains would have kicked every possession into touch so they could steal all your line out ball and then kicked it into touch again until they got into your 22

@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:

I was gobsmacked when Roigard went off. Any word? Serious injury.

Robertson talked about this in his post-match press conference. Cam Roigard took a knock before half time. He thought he could run it off afterwards but couldn't run so he signalled that he needed to go off.

No news about the extent of the injury but I'd be amazed if he is involved against Wales.

@junior said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

Lineout was the only area we got smashed, but every time it didn’t seem to result in much as we made metres in defence and attack one out. It’s genuinely weird, I’m not celebrating it, just gobsmacked

A team with more brains would have kicked every possession into touch so they could steal all your line out ball and then kicked it into touch again until they got into your 22

In a way that's the most disappointing aspect of yesterday, our team's total inability to react to what was going on around them because of their compulsion to stick to "the master coach's" game plan.

That squad need to go away over the summer and watch some videos of classic All Blacks performances.

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Gunner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Beauden Barrett, not once but twice, fucking TWICE missing touch

In BB's defence it was ONCE ... (once too many). Roigard fucked up the second one.

Which points fo the fact BB was injured, and should have been hooked.

For the prosecution, it's not the first time this tour he has done that - indeed, he did the exact same fucked up kick in the exact same filled position against the Paddies.

@African-Monkey said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

Around 32:30 we nearly scored in the corner, then meekly allowed England to drive us off the ball. See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection. They never even looked interested in the follow-up ruck after LF was tackled.

View image

View image

View image

View image

View image

View image

The much maligned Sam Cane at his peak would have cleaned someone out there.

Rewatch Crotty try after the hooter that won us the game in Dublin in 2013. The cleanout work is incredible. The Franks brothers made the try. Messam makes a bust down the right edge at one point and McCaw absolutely melts an irish player in the clean.

Watch it. Watch all the unseen stuff. Compare it to what we are served up by the current bunch.

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

McCaw absolutely melts an irish player in the clean.

Probably wasn't thinking about street-wear colabs when there was the chance of getting to the ruck on time ...

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

Around 32:30 we nearly scored in the corner, then meekly allowed England to drive us off the ball. See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection. They never even looked interested in the follow-up ruck after LF was tackled.

View image

View image

View image

View image

View image

View image

The much maligned Sam Cane at his peak would have cleaned someone out there.

Rewatch Crotty try after the hooter that won us the game in Dublin in 2013. The cleanout work is incredible. The Franks brothers made the try. Messam makes a bust down the right edge at one point and McCaw absolutely melts an irish player in the clean.

Watch it. Watch all the unseen stuff. Compare it to what we are served up by the current bunch.

View embedded content

The support work at the ruck/contact is incredible. And watch Nonu calmly waiting for the ball to bounce along to him, taking the perfect line to tie up THREE Irish defenders while Cruden, 16 & Crotty anticipate the space created. A team at ease playing together.

The more I watch Robertson's team, the more I think things aren't right in the camp

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

Around 32:30 we nearly scored in the corner, then meekly allowed England to drive us off the ball. See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection. They never even looked interested in the follow-up ruck after LF was tackled.

View image

View image

View image

View image

View image

View image

The much maligned Sam Cane at his peak would have cleaned someone out there.

Rewatch Crotty try after the hooter that won us the game in Dublin in 2013. The cleanout work is incredible. The Franks brothers made the try. Messam makes a bust down the right edge at one point and McCaw absolutely melts an irish player in the clean.

Watch it. Watch all the unseen stuff. Compare it to what we are served up by the current bunch.

View embedded content

The support work at the ruck/contact is incredible. And watch Nonu calmly waiting for the ball to bounce along to him, taking the perfect line to tie up THREE Irish defenders while Cruden, 16 & Crotty anticipate the space created. A team at ease playing together.

The more I watch Robertson's team, the more I think things aren't right in the camp

The current crop are petrified.

We struggled with the ball and were even poorer without it.

Team looks fatigued, small and worst of all, disinterested.

The only win for me was turning down a ticket and not going.

they do not know what to do when they have the ball.

Biggest takeaway from yesterday was England were the more physically dominant team.

ABs completed more passes, had majority of possession and the territorial advantage yet had three fewer line breaks. England had more dominant tackles and effected more turnovers.

England had the upper hand in the collisions and at the breakdown. Lakai is the only AB loosie who would have a claim to a position in a combined NZ/Eng backrow based on yesterday's performance. Pollock clearly had more impact off the bench than Sititi.

Impressed and surprised to hear Wilson mention Papalii, Jacobson, and Mark Telea as experienced players who were available but haven't been selected. Also got a shot in about trying a 6-2 bench.

Also Wilson: "We spent years, and years trying to work out how to win World Cups. We let all that expertise walk out the door, and now those coaches don't want a bar of us. We burned those bridges."

That is not something that I ever expected to hear on the Breakdown.

@Tim

"Are we taking what worked in Super Rugby and trying it in test rugby. That's what I see happening, and I don't see it working."

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim

"Are we taking what worked in Super Rugby and trying it in test rugby. That's what I see happening, and I don't see it working."

It's why Leicester and Quinn worked in the midfield at short notice.

Test footy is about winning collisions. Go forward ball. Territory.

If we had say a Harry Plummer at 10, Sam Cane at 7 and a Harry Wilson at 8 we probably win that game.

We lost that game due to the nuts and bolts not being good enough. Kicking pens, finding touch, cleaning out rucks, carrying hard.

Our current players are all icing. But no cake.

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim

"Are we taking what worked in Super Rugby and trying it in test rugby. That's what I see happening, and I don't see it working."

Go back and watch Crusaders vs the Lions in 2017. The same things were said after the Lions won that game. Who was the Crusaders coach?

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim

"Are we taking what worked in Super Rugby and trying it in test rugby. That's what I see happening, and I don't see it working."

It's why Leicester and Quinn worked in the midfield at short notice.

Test footy is about winning collisions. Go forward ball. Territory.

If we had say a Harry Plummer at 10, Sam Cane at 7 and a Harry Wilson at 8 we probably win that game.

We lost that game due to the nuts and bolts not being good enough. Kicking pens, finding touch, cleaning out rucks, carrying hard.

Our current players are all icing. But no cake.

Parker is wearing Kaino's jersey......didnt see him all game.

Savea is wearing McCaws...didnt see him.

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim

"Are we taking what worked in Super Rugby and trying it in test rugby. That's what I see happening, and I don't see it working."

It's why Leicester and Quinn worked in the midfield at short notice.

Test footy is about winning collisions. Go forward ball. Territory.

If we had say a Harry Plummer at 10, Sam Cane at 7 and a Harry Wilson at 8 we probably win that game.

We lost that game due to the nuts and bolts not being good enough. Kicking pens, finding touch, cleaning out rucks, carrying hard.

Our current players are all icing. But no cake.

Feels very much like 2003 when Henry took over. He inherited the icing, as was seen in the 3N that year. Then he had to go and bake the cake. It took him until France in Paris in 2004 to find the recipe.

@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim

"Are we taking what worked in Super Rugby and trying it in test rugby. That's what I see happening, and I don't see it working."

Go back and watch Crusaders vs the Lions in 2017. The same things were said after the Lions won that game. Who was the Crusaders coach?

Yes, and the Blues won their game due to the efforts of their loose forwards. Still can't get selected by shit NZ coaches.

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

Sam Cane at 7

Papalii is the bigger, faster, and better option.

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

Sam Cane at 7

Papalii is the bigger, faster, and better option.

In fairness to Dalton, he’s done what has been asked of him in the AB XV and led well. If he doesn’t get selected after a good tour, NZ may as well disband the XV and save the money to pour into fixing the development pathways that are broken!

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

@cgrant I disagree. I think Simon Parker is a project worth persevering with and Twickenham is great stage for him to show what he's got. I think his ball carrying will cause England some real problems.

What is your opinion now ?